What is salvation?

[Kevin H]

I made reference to this book, but may I recommend and ask if anyone has read Paul Heubecks "Make it Plain"? It is a powerful book that can clear up much of the missunderstanding on both sides here. Other reference would include Jim Fleming's "Acts: New Discoveries of the Early Church" and "Lest We Forget: A History of Anti-Jewishness and the Chruch" as well as the 2 chapters in "The Sanctuary and the Atonement" titled "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the Writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2. As well as the books by C. Raymond More "Theology in Crisis" and "Questions on Doctrine Revisited."

But "Make It Plain" is a really nice book that makes salvation very plain.

[John317]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No' date=' those who go to heaven will have been changed. They will be sinless....

You are apparently talking about the change that occurs at the Second Coming when this mortal puts on immortality. [/quote']

Not only that, but when we receive a glorified life free from indwelling sin.

Quote:

Any changes in our characters must occur BEFORE the end of human probation, not after.

Depends how you define character. The man of Romans 7 character has been changed....His mind has a new direction, even though he is failing to live the spirit of the law.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Give it some thought.

Ask Jack Sequeira. I'm sure he wouldn't call it pure baloney. He might be able to explain it to you so it makes perfect sense.

[/quote']

You are speaking of merit....I do so much and Christ does the rest....

Are you obeying just like Christ? No? Then you are not obeying...you are failing even though you are growing....

[SivartM]

Excuse me folks, but I believe that this thread is called, "What is salvation?", not, "Let's argue about what salvation is". You are currently doing that on every other thread in this forum. If I believed that there was the remotest chance that arguing would change anything, I wouldn't care; I'd tell you all to argue away. But that's extremely unlikely (because, of course, we're Adventists, and we have THE TRUTH, which means we have proof texts and exegesis to prove that everyone else is wrong).

So if you can't stay on topic here (in other words, stop arguing and discuss in a Christian manner), please use the other threads to lash out at others while you remain painfully unaware that you really know far less than you think you do.

[Gerr]

Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Just so you know, that would be Jesus, and He doesn't throw rocks at people.

Huh? And just WHO is throwing the first stone? Is anyone claiming they have never sinned?

Maybe I should ask YOU, since you presumed to answer directed at someone else. Do YOU believe you/me or anyone else can hang on to sin and still be saved?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

When are you going to gain the victory over all sin and live Christ's life?

Kindly answer the question? Are you saying we don't have to gain victory over sin? That we can hang on to sin and still be saved?

Thanks.

[Woody]

So if you can't stay on topic here (in other words, stop arguing and discuss in a Christian manner), please use the other threads to lash out at others while you remain painfully unaware that you really know far less than you think you do.

Good Advice SivartM. And the penalty of being off topic is being banned. So one best be careful. And of course ... YOU are off topic.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Arguing is sometimes debate.

SivartM wrote:

Quote:

You are currently doing that on every other thread in this forum.

So who made *him* the forum polizei?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Legalism! This is salvation by works. [/quote']

Not so, its in the Bible, take it to God, He wrote it not me!

I for one will not gain victory over every sin in my life. Guess I'm condemned to Hell ... which I already knew anyways.

[Robert]

What law are you referring to?

I'm not going to start playing that game....The legalists did this back in 1888, you know, ceremonial...moral, etc.

What law? The spirit of the law...for it requires "agape"

[Robert]

Excuse me folks, but I believe that this thread is called, "What is salvation?", not, "Let's argue about what salvation is".

Well I guess you want everyone to say the same thing....Then maybe you would be happy, especially if it agreed with you.

Salvation is from the curse of the law....Period!

[Robert]

Kindly answer the question? Are you saying we don't have to gain victory over sin? That we can hang on to sin and still be saved?

Kindly answer my question because it will answer yours....

[Woody]

Quote:

Kindly answer the question? Are you saying we don't have to gain victory over sin? That we can hang on to sin and still be saved?

Thanks.

I hang onto sin all the time. And I'm saved. Don't know if you are saved for hanging onto your sins. I do know that you do it. But don't know if you are saved or not.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Excuse me folks, but I believe that this thread is called, "What is salvation?", not, "Let's argue about what salvation is".

Well I guess you want everyone to say the same thing....Then maybe you would be happy, especially if it agreed with you.

Salvation is from the curse of the law....Period!

That is the only salvation that we are promised.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Well I guess you want everyone to say the same thing....Then maybe you would be happy, especially if it agreed with you.

Salvation is from the curse of the law....Period! [/quote']

That is the only salvation that we are promised.

Gal 4:4...

That's what Christ came to save us from...the 2nd death...the curse of the law.....

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Just so you know, that would be Jesus, and He doesn't throw rocks at people.

Huh? And just WHO is throwing the first stone? Is anyone claiming they have never sinned?

Maybe I should ask YOU, since you presumed to answer directed at someone else. Do YOU believe you/me or anyone else can hang on to sin and still be saved?

What? No. But if someone is claiming that we need to overcome all sin to stay saved, that would mean that if they have not overcome all sin, they aren't saved. So... they are just indirectly stating that they are no longer sinning. And that means that they don't need God's grace anymore.

[SivartM]

Arguing is sometimes debate.

SivartM wrote:

Quote:

You are currently doing that on every other thread in this forum.

So who made *him* the forum polizei?

Sorrry for taking offense at the little angry mob party. I was under the mistaken impression that thread starters could make little comments about staying on topic.

I just think it's quite ironic that the one thing we can all agree about is being "Christlike", but nobody can even get along with each other.

But whatever.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Anyone can make comments about staying "on topic"...

and I apologize for the "polizei" comment.

[Guest]

Now that is just plum sweet. You two have restored my faith in humanity.

I think I'm gonna cry.....

[karl]

What? No. But if someone is claiming that we need to overcome all sin to stay saved, that would mean that if they have not overcome all sin, they aren't saved. So... they are just indirectly stating that they are no longer sinning. And that means that they don't need God's grace anymore.

I dunno, Silvart.

I think we need God's grace for nearly everything. To keep breathing, to keep trusting, to keep from sinning, to keep from spending too much time on this forum.

God's grace is power for good in our lives.

The only thing we don't need God's grace for is to keep sinning.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Gerry:

Maybe I should ask YOU, since you presumed to answer a question directed at someone else. Do YOU believe you/me or anyone else can hang on to sin and still be saved?

SivartM:

What? No. But if someone is claiming that we need to overcome all sin to stay saved, that would mean that if they have not overcome all sin, they aren't saved. So... they are just indirectly stating that they are no longer sinning. And that means that they don't need God's grace anymore.

Now, how did you come to THAT conclusion?

How does one keep from sinning except by the grace of God and the indwelling Spirit? And shall we keep on sinning to prove our need of grace?

"1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?

2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Rom 6:1-2 ESV

And the Apostle John wrote this:

"No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived or understood Him - or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. 1 Jn 3:6 Amp. I suggest you keep reading the whole chapter.

Unless you make a distinction between practiced/deliberate/intentional sins from inadvertent/unintentional and occasional lapses, you will either believe we can hang on to sin and remain saved or deny that believers can stop living in rebellion against the principles of God's kingdom .

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Well I guess you want everyone to say the same thing....Then maybe you would be happy, especially if it agreed with you.

Salvation is from the curse of the law....Period! [/quote']

That is the only salvation that we are promised.

IMHO, your view of salvation is too narrow, just like the gospel you guys present. Here is something that might help expand your field of vision:

"To human reason the whole plan of salvation is a waste of mercy. Self-denial and whole-hearted sacrifice meet us everywhere. But they are provided to accomplish the restoration of the moral image of God in man." YI 7/19/1900

IOW, salvation is not just about remission of punishment, it is about TOTAL RESTORATION!

[Woody]

In the bye and bye ... yes. Bye and Bye.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Kindly answer the question? Are you saying we don't have to gain victory over sin? That we can hang on to sin and still be saved?

Thanks.

I hang onto sin all the time. And I'm saved. Don't know if you are saved for hanging onto your sins. I do know that you do it. But don't know if you are saved or not.

If you can hang on to sin and still remain saved, then Satan and all his hosts are saved too. So is King Saul, and Judas, and Hitler, and Stalin. Nobody is lost.