Christian Universalism

[SivartM]

I've been reading some about Christian Universalism (see http://www.christianheretic.com/hell).

Now, it doesn't mean that everyone goes right to heaven even if they hate God and they live happily/miserably ever after. It means that, eventually, everyone is reconciled to God.

And I want to believe it.

Not so that I can be a hedonist because even if I die I'll still get eternal life... but just because I really love everyone. Is it bad for me to want to believe it? Do you think that this goes against the Bible? (And, of course, what would Ellen say?)

Again... is it wrong for me to want so badly for this to be true?

If not... shouldn't it be true? If so... why?

[abelisle]

Sorry Sivart but this is what EGW had to say about American slaves:

"God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been . . ."Spiritual Gifts Vol.1 p. 193

I guess not everyone is reconciled to God?

Alex

[Gerr]

You may want very badly to believe for it to be true, but is it true? The Bible clearly says some will be saved and some will be lost.

[SivartM]

Sorry Sivart but this is what EGW had to say about American slaves:

"God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been . . ."Spiritual Gifts Vol.1 p. 193

I guess not everyone is reconciled to God?

[SivartM]

By the way, I was fully expecting all the responses to be, "The Bible and Ellen White clearly say that..."

And... I was right.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This reminds me of someone saying that Satan will be reconciled with God and will be in heaven also.

[Nan]

Not a new concept...the Christian author George MacDonald in the late 1800's had a similar concept about all being eventually reconciled to God, I do not know whether he thought that would apply also to the devil.

I do believe all will ultimately acknowledge the justice and sovereignty of God, but that is not the same as believing all will

be saved.

[SivartM]

I do believe all will ultimately acknowledge the justice and sovereignty of God, but that is not the same as believing all will

be saved.

Isn't that only a few steps away?

Now, peoples, my main question was whether or not it would be correct to believe it. My main question is whether or not it would be right to want it to be true.

[Outta Here]

IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO WANT IT TO BE TRUE. Though most here would disagree with me, I am one who believes that ultimately God will wait it out forever until all have reconciled themselves back unto Him. I believe God has bigger plans than any of us can imagine and I believe He hints at this in His reaction to the Ninevites.

(Not going to argue/defend my beliefs with anyone here. Just saying what I believe; offering my OPINION.)

[Nan]

Originally Posted By: Nan

I do believe all will ultimately acknowledge the justice and sovereignty of God, but that is not the same as believing all will

be saved.

Isn't that only a few steps away?

Now, peoples, my main question was whether or not it would be correct to believe it. My main question is whether or not it would be right to want it to be true.

"Even the devils believe and tremble." (James 2:19)

It might be only a step away...but it is a very big step.

I do not believe it is wrong to want everyone to be reconciled to God...I believe that is what God Himself wants. He tells us He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

I believe it comes down to personal choice, God will not force any of us to live the way He advises.

C S Lewis said something to the effect that in the end, there will be two classes of people. Those who say to God, "Thy will be done" and those to whom God says, "Thy will be done".

[Gerr]

By the way, I was fully expecting all the responses to be, "The Bible and Ellen White clearly say that..."

And... I was right.

If you read my post, I referred only to the Bible.

[SivartM]

IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO WANT IT TO BE TRUE. Though most here would disagree with me, I am one who believes that ultimately God will wait it out forever until all have reconciled themselves back unto Him. I believe God has bigger plans than any of us can imagine and I believe He hints at this in His reaction to the Ninevites.

(Not going to argue/defend my beliefs with anyone here. Just saying what I believe; offering my OPINION.)

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

By the way, I was fully expecting all the responses to be, "The Bible and Ellen White clearly say that..."

And... I was right.

If you read my post, I referred only to the Bible.

And abelisle referred to Ellen White.

[abelisle]

I think you are right in wanting to believe that. Your love for your fellow man showws through.

But I am curious why no one is disturbed by the EGW quote I posted. That idea she writes is about is very troubling for me. A human being is considered to be a non-entity purely due to the way it was treated?

Alex

[SivartM]

I think you are right in wanting to believe that. Your love for your fellow man showws through.

But I am curious why no one is disturbed by the EGW quote I posted. That idea she writes is about is very troubling for me. A human being is considered to be a non-entity purely due to the way it was treated?

Alex

Thank you.

I was disturbed. I even went to the White Estate website but their answer was not particularly comforting. That's why I just said I don't know. The only thing I can think of is that maybe that's one of the things in which her understanding grew as she got older. But I don't know.

[Guest]

I think you are right in wanting to believe that. Your love for your fellow man showws through.

But I am curious why no one is disturbed by the EGW quote I posted. That idea she writes is about is very troubling for me. A human being is considered to be a non-entity purely due to the way it was treated?

Alex

I think it has more to do with having never known God, than how they were treated. John 17:3 comes to mind.

[SivartM]

Well, there goes the whole "follow the light they were given" argument for saving the jungle people.

[Gerr]

Quote:

But I am curious why no one is disturbed by the EGW quote I posted. That idea she writes is about is very troubling for me. A human being is considered to be a non-entity purely due to the way it was treated?

Alex

[color:blue]

Look at that quote again:

Quote:

"God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been . . ."Spiritual Gifts Vol.1 p. 193

[Guest]

There is nothing at all wrong with wanting everyone to be saved. In fact that is what God wants, 2Peter 3:9. But the Bible is very plain in telling us exactly what IS going to happen. So why the speculating, and acting like it is some obscure topic that hasn't been revealed to us yet?

[Guest]

Well, there goes the whole "follow the light they were given" argument for saving the jungle people.

I don't know. Maybe you do need SOME light to follow. I have to shrug on that one, because I don't know.

[SivartM]

There is nothing at all wrong with wanting everyone to be saved. In fact that is what God wants, 2Peter 3:9. But the Bible is very plain in telling us exactly what IS going to happen. So why the speculating, and acting like it is some obscure topic that hasn't been revealed to us yet?

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, I also find that EGW quote troubling. It seems to limit the power and wisdom of God to a human level. Those folk seem so broken that not even God can fix them.

I don't know. But I would like to think that God can fix anything. If God can take all the dust and ashes of the long dead back together again perfectly, what a small task to take those that have been broken by man's inhumanity to man and repair the damage done and restore them to a state where they can start over without all the burdens of sin that destroyed them.

I am expecting the divine surprise of eye hath not seen nor ear heard...

[SivartM]

Tom, you just made me think of something. Maybe Ellen means by "as thought they had never been"... as though they had never been held in ignorance and slavery?

[stoney59]

As one theologian wrote: 'i am not an universalist, but God might be.' God certainly wants what you want, see 1 tim. 2:4. problem with our denomination is we seem to spend an inordinate amount of time excluding those who don't measure up to our 'rarefied enlightenment,' those who don't build the character we work so hard to achieve, those who refuse the sabbath, our prophet, our eschatology, they are unfit, 'not safe' to save. we turn them out.

what i read is God's death on the cross and His resurrection paid the price for sin. period. we can't add one iota of anything to it. i don't have enough space here to go into it, but in time, if we continue our dialog, i will. i mean if adam's sin condemned us all, then certainly Christ's death has to do better than just afford us the 'opportunity to be saved.' if we are going to study the cross for eternity (egw) then there must be something way beyond our understanding, an impact that affects the cosmos and eternity, something so incredible, so fantastic, so scandalous, so over-the-top, that forever and ever will not comprehend what an unspeakable gift His life and death and life was and is. i am not absolutely certain about 'universalism,' but i wouldn't put anything past God. He loves surprises. we are free to search and believe. we are accepted and approved in Him, and God welcomes our puny efforts to make sense out out His marvelous Gift in a world so undone. He welcomes our inquest and dialog and i love Him for it.

[Gerr]

Yes, I also find that EGW quote troubling. It seems to limit the power and wisdom of God to a human level. Those folk seem so broken that not even God can fix them.

How is a sinner saved? Does the slave described by EGW meet the criteria? What would really disturb me would be if he were sent to hell.