Christian Universalism

[karl]

I mean, eventually everyone loves God. Basically.

Who are the lost, Sivart? Who is cast into the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Guest]

Are you saying I'd be lost if I believed that God would reconcile everyone to himself? What are the negative consequences of this belief?

Because if you truly believe that, then you also have to believe that what you do has no bearing on your salvation. And THAT can cause you to be lost. It is a doctrine of Lucifer himself.

[John317]

Quote:

SivartM: Everyone is saved.

But what does the Bible say people will do if they really love God?

It says those who claim to love God but don't keep His commandments are liars.

Check out 1 John 2: 1-6.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

It says unrepentant liars won't be saved.

Rev. 22:15

For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[doug yowell]

Everyone is saved.

Yay.

All right, now we're talking turkey. Or is it now we're talking, turkey? or, now we're talking turkeys? Anyway..... where would this concept come from? What sources of evidence would need to be considered to effectively convince someone of this universal salvation? And if everyone is saved does that mean that there is no eternal death?

[Woody]

For SURE ... we are saved by who we KNOW ... NOT by our works.

[Woody]

Praise God ... HE saved us 2,000 years ago.

[Guest]

For SURE ... we are saved by who we KNOW ... NOT by our works.

This is TRUE!!

But you consistantly forget one thing. If you really know Him, it shows up in your works.

Every single time without exception. That's why the scripture is right when it says: By their fruits, you will know them.

[Woody]

Quote:

But you consistantly forget one thing. If you really know Him, it shows up in your works.

Every single time without exception.

Some twenty ... some sixty .... and some an hundred. YES.

But then ... we ALL have good works. I would not rely on that barometer.

[karl]

For SURE ... we are saved by who we KNOW ... NOT by our works.

Knowing Him is a work, Woody.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do , that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent .

[John317]

Quote:

SivartM:

Are you saying I'd be lost if I believed that God would reconcile everyone to himself? What are the negative consequences of this belief?

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: Because if you truly believe that, then you also have to believe that what you do has no bearing on your salvation. And THAT can cause you to be lost. It is a doctrine of Lucifer himself.

I agree, Richard.

If we believe everybody is going to be saved no matter what they do or believe, what's the incentive to preach and evangelize?

And doesn't such a belief make the Bible and the SOP out to be full of falsehoods?

Imagine telling people, "God has already saved you. You will be saved in God's kingdom whether you like it or not. All those verses in the Bible teaching that many people won't be saved are a lie and don't mean what they say. Ellen White didn't know what she was talking about. You will see Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot in heaven. In fact, they will be your neighbors. Even Satan will be there with a big smile on his face and with God's name in his forehead."

[Guest]

Praise God ... HE saved us 2,000 years ago.

If that is true, then there is no need of a judgment. And the sanctuary doctrine which sets Adventism apart from the rest of the world, is null and void. Nothing but a useless heresy. Which would make us the worst heretics on the planet.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.” (Matthew 16:27)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10)

[Woody]

My saved status does not change when I commit a sin. I have the assurance of salvation. I don't bounce in and out of God's Grace with each sin I commit.

[Guest]

Quote:

SivartM:

Are you saying I'd be lost if I believed that God would reconcile everyone to himself? What are the negative consequences of this belief?

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: Because if you truly believe that, then you also have to believe that what you do has no bearing on your salvation. And THAT can cause you to be lost. It is a doctrine of Lucifer himself.

I agree, Richard.

If we believe everybody is going to be saved no matter what they do or believe, what's the incentive to preach and evangelize?

And doesn't such a belief make the Bible and the SOP out to be full of falsehoods?

Imagine telling people, "God has already saved you. You will be saved in God's kingdom whether you like it or not. All those verses in the Bible teaching that many people won't be saved are a lie and don't mean what they say. Ellen White didn't know what she was talking about. You will see Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot in heaven. In fact, they will be your neighbors. Even Satan will be there with a big smile on his face and with God's name in his forehead."

Zactly....

[Guest]

My saved status does not change when I commit a sin. I have the assurance of salvation. I don't bounce in and out of God's Grace with each sin I commit.

That's true, which is why you need to make for sure that you are in. Instead of just thinking you are, based on the teaching of others. There is going to be a large number who THOUGHT they were. As you know.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure...

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed.....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[Robert]

And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I find this quote confusing. Let's look at it:

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

What does John mean "if any man sin"? We are in a state of sin. Growing, yes, but not fully complete.

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is pretty straight forward.

3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands [some translations say "commandments"]. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

Okay, is Jesus talking about the Ten Commandments? What does the following refer to?

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands

Does it say what the law commands? No....

if anyone obeys his word

Is obeying His word the same as obeying the law?

6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

None of us are walking as Jesus walked. Jesus lived a perfect life. As EGW states, "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Who among us will make this claim? Not me....In other places she states to make such a claim is delusional. So verse 6 makes no sense at all....

7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8 Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

What's the new, old command?

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

Okay, the context seems to be talking about hatred. We know that the Jews hated the Gentiles. They looked down on them like they were dogs.

If John is saying that the mark of a converted person is that he/she no longer looks down his/her nose at others then I agree.

If John is saying we must walk as Christ walked in perfection then there's no hope for any of us.

I have a feeling when most SDA quote this they mean living Christ's life.....Ok, someone wake them up....

[SivartM]

Goodness, people. I don't even know if I believe this anyway.

Who are the lost, Sivart? Who is cast into the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[SivartM]

Guys, please don't let this thread turn into an argument about something else!

[Robert]

If that is true, then there is no need of a judgment.

[Robert]

Guys, please don't let this thread turn into an argument about something else!

Well, they always go the way of works...and I always counter....It's been going on for years....Sorry.

As to your view, SivartM, all men were saved in the doing and dying of Christ. That's universal salvation. But not all men will accept Christ. Those who do not remain under the curse of the law, which is God abandonment.

[phkrause]

I've been reading some about Christian Universalism (see http://www.christianheretic.com/hell).

Now, it doesn't mean that everyone goes right to heaven even if they hate God and they live happily/miserably ever after. It means that, eventually, everyone is reconciled to God.

And I want to believe it.

Not so that I can be a hedonist because even if I die I'll still get eternal life... but just because I really love everyone. Is it bad for me to want to believe it? Do you think that this goes against the Bible? (And, of course, what would Ellen say?)

Again... is it wrong for me to want so badly for this to be true?

If not... shouldn't it be true? If so... why?

This statement "the Christian doctrine that all people will eventually be (or already have been) reconciled or saved by Christ" as it is stated I don't accept Sivart. But changed to this "the Christian doctrine that all people already have been reconciled or saved by Christ" I can buy. But remembering that we have to accept what Jesus has done for us. Just because Christ died 2000 years ago doesn't mean that we will be saved, because we all have a choice of accepting or not accepting what he has done. So I agree with you that you can believe anything you want because its not wrong to want all to be saved. This is also what Jesus wants, and if he didn't believe that than he would not have come here to give up his life for us. The only thing about your premise that's missing is our part and that's we have to choose his sacrifice for us.

[Guest]

There's a judgment because there's an accuser. He tells God that old Richard is a sinner and He doesn't have a legal right to take Richard to heaven. So the Judgment is good news to sinners, not the self-righteous. Why? He will present us not in our sin-stained cloths, but in Christ's robe of righteousness. That's why there's judgment.

Where is it put like this in the Bible? My Bible always has the judgment coming from God, not Satan.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.” (Matthew 16:27)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10)

[phkrause]

Sorry Sivart but this is what EGW had to say about American slaves:

"God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been . . ."Spiritual Gifts Vol.1 p. 193

I guess not everyone is reconciled to God?

Alex

Again Alex my question to this reference from EGW was not answered from the other thread that you asked this. When was this written by EGW? And someone brought up a good point, do we really know what she meant by this statement? Have we taken it out of context? Also if this is something she truly believed than I have to agree with Robert that she is wrong. But that's my opinion on that, because we wont know until the Lord comes.

[Guest]

Ok Siv, that's enough of that.

[phkrause]

By the way, I was fully expecting all the responses to be, "The Bible and Ellen White clearly say that..."

And... I was right.

And where else are we going to get our responses from? Obviously the Bible because that is the standard to go by. And EGW because she backs up everything that the Bible says, and because she points us to the Bible. And also allowing her not being infallible, she makes mistakes.

[phkrause]

I think it has more to do with having never known God, than how they were treated. John 17:3 comes to mind.

Interesting statement Richard.