Christian Universalism

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Praise God ... HE saved us 2,000 years ago.

If that is true, then there is no need of a judgment. And the sanctuary doctrine which sets Adventism apart from the rest of the world, is null and void.

Universalism or Calvinism is the logical outgrowth of denying the sanctuary doctrine. The baleful results of Ford's theology are still very much with us and the unilateral (God does it all) salvation terminology has made its way into our Adventist lingo without raising much suspicion.

The reasoning goes something like this: Since there is not one thread of human devising in Christ's robe of righteousness, Jesus does it all. We have no part in it.

Listen. We need not devise any thread in the pattern. The plan of salvation and the robe of Christ's righteousness are exclusively of God's design. But we most definitely must cooperate with Christ for Him to impute and impart His merits to us. He DESIGNED the plan of salvation so that it preserves our free will. We MUST cooperate with (obey) Him if we are to be saved. His heavenly ministry on our behalf underscores this process as He clothes us with His attributes. We put on the new man. And unless we are new creatures, we cannot be saved.

[phkrause]

Well, there goes the whole "follow the light they were given" argument for saving the jungle people.

Who are Jungle people? I'm guessing you mean those that have never heard of Christ?

[phkrause]

There is nothing at all wrong with wanting everyone to be saved. In fact that is what God wants, 2Peter 3:9. But the Bible is very plain in telling us exactly what IS going to happen. So why the speculating, and acting like it is some obscure topic that hasn't been revealed to us yet?

Good post Richard

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Praise God ... HE saved us 2,000 years ago.

If that is true, then there is no need of a judgment. And the sanctuary doctrine which sets Adventism apart from the rest of the world, is null and void.

Universalism or Calvinism is the logical outgrowth of denying the sanctuary doctrine. The baleful results of Ford's theology are still very much with us and the unilateral (God does it all) salvation terminology has made its way into our Adventist lingo without raising much suspicion.

The reasoning goes something like this: Since there is not one thread of human devising in Christ's robe of righteousness, Jesus does it all. We have no part in it.

Listen. We need not devise any thread in the pattern. The plan of salvation and the robe of Christ's righteousness are exclusively of God's design. But we most definitely must cooperate with Christ for Him to impute and impart His merits to us. He DESIGNED the plan of salvation so that it preserves our free will. We MUST cooperate with (obey) Him if we are to be saved. His heavenly ministry on our behalf underscores this process as He clothes us with His attributes. We put on the new man. And unless we are new creatures, we cannot be saved.

[doug yowell]

Goodness, people. I don't even know if I believe this anyway.

Look, I don't know a ton about this, okay? So please just read the articles at the link I gave in my original post. THEN, once you actually know what I'm talking about, say something. Or not.

So if we read these links are we then allowed to compare their ideas with what we read in the Bible and/or EGW's writings?

[phkrause]

As long as you are OK with God resurrecting someone other than you, this will work. If God messes with your mind and your memories in the process of resurrection, it will not be not be you who is resurrected.

I think He heals memories rather than changing them. I think He will make our memories OK in a way that preserves our identities. I don't think it is going to be presto-chango. I'll bet the entire transformation takes a while. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Who knows but that it may continue in heaven? That first thousand years there may be some tears for God to wipe away.

Interesting post and thoughts Karl

[phkrause]

If it is being suggested that an unrepentant rapist/murderer will be in heaven, then yes, it IS being suggested that doing God's will is unneccessary, and unimportant.

Good point Richard

[Guest]

So if we read these links are we then allowed to compare their ideas with what we read in the Bible and/or EGW's writings?

Good question Doug, and judging from one of the posts I saw, it needs to be asked.

[Guest]

This statement "the Christian doctrine that all people will eventually be (or already have been) reconciled or saved by Christ" as it is stated I don't accept Sivart. But changed to this "the Christian doctrine that all people already have been reconciled or saved by Christ" I can buy. But remembering that we have to accept what Jesus has done for us. Just because Christ died 2000 years ago doesn't mean that we will be saved, because we all have a choice of accepting or not accepting what he has done. So I agree with you that you can believe anything you want because its not wrong to want all to be saved. This is also what Jesus wants, and if he didn't believe that than he would not have come here to give up his life for us. The only thing about your premise that's missing is our part and that's we have to choose his sacrifice for us.

In the doctrine of universalism, there is no free will. Everyone is going to heaven, whether they want to or not.

[John317]

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SivartM: Goodness, people. I don't even know if I believe this anyway.

I'm sure you don't believe it at this point. But when people say something, I assume they mean it or at least that it's a serious question.

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karl:

Who are the lost, Sivart? Who is cast into the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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SivartM: Obviously, "eventually" would probably occur after. By the way, why would God punish people for no reason? Doesn't he punish people to teach them something?

After what?

Could you explain when this change in the wicked would occur?

The answers are particularly clear in the books of Daniel and Revelation and in Ellen White's book, The Great Controversy. How God handles the problem of sin is for the benefit of the entire universe. It has to do with visiting the full penalty of the law and meeting the full demands of justice. God is a God of justice, which is something that a lot of people would rather not think of, so many deny it.

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Richard Holbrook: Because if you truly believe that, then you also have to believe that what you do has no bearing on your salvation. And THAT can cause you to be lost. It is a doctrine of Lucifer himself.

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SivartM: How so? Obviously, if eventually everyone is saved, then eventually everyone will have come to do the will of God. Nobody said anything about people getting into heaven without repenting.

But why will everyone eventually do the will of God?

If it's predetermined that everyone will eventually be saved, why will it matter if people choose to do the will of God or not?

Why preach the gospel if we already know everyone will be saved?

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John317: If we believe everybody is going to be saved no matter what they do or believe, what's the incentive to preach and evangelize?

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SivartM: So they can know God now!

You'll notice that most people don't want to know God or hear the gospel. What happens to them?

Ellen White makes the statement that only a relatively small number of those who've lived on this earth will ultimately be saved. This harmonizes perfectly with Jesus' statements about the broad road that leads to destruction and the narrow one that leads to eternal life.

Have you read Pilgrim's Progress? There's a great book.

What did Jesus say about those who reject the gospel?

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark 6:11

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

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John 3:17: And doesn't such a belief make the Bible and the SOP out to be full of falsehoods?

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SivartM: Does it?

Yes, it certainly does.

Here:

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thes. 1:6-12

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. [11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: [12] That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And:

They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. GC 673

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JOHN3:17: [if all are in heaven], then you will see Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot in heaven. In fact, they will be your neighbors. Even Satan will be there with a big smile on his face and with God's name in his forehead.

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SivartM: Yes, wouldn't that be great?

It would only be great if they were truly repentent for their sins and had converted to Christ. But the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are both clear that this can't happen because these people already died. When we die, our probation is ended. People don't change after their death.

When are you proposing that this change would take place?

[phkrause]

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SivartM: I was fully expecting all the responses to be, "The Bible and Ellen White clearly say that..."

And... I was right.

What is your source of knowledge about this subject, if not the Bible and the SOP?

The only way anyone can believe in "universal salvation" is by rejecting much of the Bible as well as the Spirit of prophecy.

If someone already knows what the Bible and God's last-day prophet say, why would they want to believe something they know (or knew?) to be a lie?

The Bible says that if we really want to believe a lie, God will allow us to believe it. When we reach that point, there's not anything that even God can do to save us because He won't force us to believe the truth if we don't want it.

Excellent post John

[phkrause]

I mean, eventually everyone loves God. Basically.

I disagree

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: "God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been . . ."Spiritual Gifts Vol.1 p. 193

I guess not everyone is reconciled to God?

On the basis of what you have read in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White about salvation, why do you think Ellen White makes the above statement?

What would be God's purpose or reason for letting the kind of save she describes be as if he had never been?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Woody

For SURE ... we are saved by who we KNOW ... NOT by our works.

Knowing Him is a work, Woody.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do , that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent .

Good point Karl

[phkrause]

So if we read these links are we then allowed to compare their ideas with what we read in the Bible and/or EGW's writings?

Now that's an excellent point doug

[Woody]

[phkrause]

In the doctrine of universalism, there is no free will. Everyone is going to heaven, whether they want to or not.

Good point Richard. I actually have spoken to a few people over the years that really don't want to go to Heaven!!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

I don't think anyone suggested that we don't need to do God's will. Could you point out the specific comment?

If it is being suggested that an unrepentant rapist/murderer will be in heaven, then yes, it IS being suggested that doing God's will is unneccessary, and unimportant.

And that was most definitely not even suggested. If one concluded that, it would have been an assumption based on a misreading of what was actually stated. There will be many murderers, thieves, rapists that are saved. Salvation by its fundamental definition is the saving of those who sinned. The innocent victim saved was also a sinner - forgiven and saved. The proper assumption to have been made was that the rapist/murderer was also forgiven and saved on the very same terms as every other human saved into God's kingdom.

Where two equal possibilities exist, one should try to assume the better rather than the worst, especially among Christians...

[John317]

Quote:

Woody: Praise God ... HE saved us 2,000 years ago.

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: If that is true, then there is no need of a judgment. And the sanctuary doctrine which sets Adventism apart from the rest of the world, is null and void.

Quote:

Karl: Universalism or Calvinism is the logical outgrowth of denying the sanctuary doctrine. The baleful results of Ford's theology are still very much with us and the unilateral (God does it all) salvation terminology has made its way into our Adventist lingo without raising much suspicion.

That's one reason it's so important for Seventh-day Adventists to understand the Investigative Judgment. As we get closer to the time of Christ's return and we see every conceivable kind of false doctrine blowing through the church, our only safety will be in knowing the Three Angels Messages for ourselves, from personal study and from personally applying those truths to our lives. If we haven't been doing those things, and if we haven't allowed the truth to sanctify us, we'll eventually join with the world because we will have slowly joined it already without even being concsious of it. We're each deciding this issue every day, now.

[SivartM]

And where else are we going to get our responses from? Obviously the Bible because that is the standard to go by. And EGW because she backs up everything that the Bible says, and because she points us to the Bible. And also allowing her not being infallible, she makes mistakes.

[SivartM]

In the doctrine of universalism, there is no free will. Everyone is going to heaven, whether they want to or not.

Exactly why you need to read the link I gave you. Why doesn't anyone even want to? Seriously... are you all afraid you'll be possessed or something if you read it?

Universalism is about God eventually reconciling everyone to himself so that they know him, and repent, and then have eternal life. It's not about forcing everyone. It's about him waiting. And it's not about people getting into heaven without repenting.

Please. Just read about it.

[SivartM]

*sigh*

[SivartM]

Why do you all want so badly for people to die? FOREVER?

Because it seems like believing that they will and liking that belief is the same as liking their death.

[Woody]

“When the enemy comes in like a flood, and seeks to overwhelm you with the thought of your sin, tell him: "I know I am a sinner. If I were not, I could not go to the Saviour.” 1 SM 325

[John317]

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SivartM: But I'd like for everyone to read this before they try to argue so that at least they know what on earth they're talking about.

I assume you don't mean you'd like for everyone to read each and every link you posted before they respond.

I think it's even more essential for people to study the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy and know those sources really well. If people studied and knew the books of Daniel and Revelation and the Great Controversy, they would know that there's no truth to the idea of Universal salvation. One can't believe in it without first rejecting a lot of Scripture and almost the whole of the SOP.