Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 20, 2010 Administrators Posted June 20, 2010 As long as you are OK with God resurrecting someone other than you, this will work. If God messes with your mind and your memories in the process of resurrection, it will not be not be you who is resurrected. I think He heals memories rather than changing them. I think He will make our memories OK in a way that preserves our identities. I don't think it is going to be presto-chango. I'll bet the entire transformation takes a while. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Who knows but that it may continue in heaven? That first thousand years there may be some tears for God to wipe away. This is not at all inconsistent with what I have intended to suggest. Healing, changing, re-programing, purging painful useless negative memories and still preserving our unique identity - all with God power to work a final miracle of healing. For many of us the most healing thing would be to have amnesia. I recall the comment of a woman in the early stages of Alzheimer's being given the option of drugs to improve her memories for longer. Her response was a sense of relief at the loss of her former hard and painful life, "Why would I want to remember all those things?" Another simply reality would be the sadness of being saved alone without any of your loved ones or friends from this lifetime. Those that have died here we miss the rest of our lives. If are given eternal life, it would be an eternity of forever missing them. God must heal the memory of those lost somehow. I believe in a God big enough to fix that while he is making all things new again. I don't care if the memory is wiped out or if he does as the universalists believe, fixing all the broken sinners, so that every knee shall bow and be saved. I realized some time ago that I really needed to just trust him to do the right thing, no matter what. If that means he does not save me as I expect and hope, He knows best and that is OK with me. If he chooses to save a bunch of sinners that I wouldn't think worthy or fit for heaven, that is also OK since I trust he has fixed the problem I thought stood in the way. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
SivartM Posted June 20, 2010 Author Posted June 20, 2010 I assume you don't mean you'd like for everyone to read each and every link you posted before they respond. I think it's even more essential for people to study the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy and know those sources really well. If people studied and knew the books of Daniel and Revelation and the Great Controversy, they would know that there's no truth to the idea of Universal salvation. One can't believe in it without first rejecting a lot of Scripture and almost the whole of the SOP. I just want people to know what Christian universalism is! Which you don't! Because you have an incorrect preconceived idea of it, that it means that everyone goes to heaven no matter what, which is not true. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Guest Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 You keep saying that Siv. So are you a universalist now? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2010 Moderators Posted June 20, 2010 Quote: SivartM: Why do you all want so badly for people to die? FOREVER? Because it seems like believing that they will and liking that belief is the same as liking their death. We need to conform our thinking and beliefs to the Bible and not try to make the Bible fit our desires and our human thoughts. Here's the thing: The Bible makes clear that God loves everyone and through Christ's death made it possible for everyone to be saved. But the Bible is equally clear that people have a choice to make. God already made his choice, and He chose us to be saved. Yet God will not force us to spend eternity with Him. He doesn't want people in heaven if they don't want to be there. It's just like a loving parent won't force their child to be with them if the child doesn't want to be. The most important thing to God is securing the universe against sin and rebellion, because sin is destructive and causes death, and God hates anything that destroys His creation. So it's not a question of wanting people to be dead forever. Its' a question of God allowing people to have their choice and not forcing it upon them. Christ died in order to guarantee humans the right to choose to be saved or to be lost. God didn't go through that only in order to ignore their choices. He honors our choices and takes them seriously. If we love people we will honor their choices also, even if it means they will die forever. Agape/love won't force someone against their will or compel them to change when they don't freely choose it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 20, 2010 Administrators Posted June 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: Woody Praise God ... HE saved us 2,000 years ago. If that is true, then there is no need of a judgment. And the sanctuary doctrine which sets Adventism apart from the rest of the world, is null and void. Nothing but a useless heresy. Which would make us the worst heretics on the planet... As I said before, yesterday's heretics are today's saints... As for The Judgment, do we really understand God's judgment? A theme throughout Scripture is that God's judgment combines justice and mercy together. God's judgment is setting things right. He is more concerned about righting wrongs, not about punishing wrong doers. Extending my previous hypothetical example, what if from God's perspective, he sees clearly both the raped and the rapist/murderer as victims of sin. As is so often the case convicted abusers were themselves victims of abuse. That they commit the heinous act against others that so warped their own soul is a part of the mystery of iniquity. Is their victim-hood unworthy of some token of God's mercy? If God frees all the captives of sin, some will be set free that in our limited human perception were not even remotely worthy. Read Revelation. In unison all the saved bow and proclaim to the Lamb, "You alone are worthy!" All will see themselves as unworthy. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
karl Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 I realized some time ago that I really needed to just trust him to do the right thing, no matter what. If that means he does not save me as I expect and hope, He knows best and that is OK with me. If he chooses to save a bunch of sinners that I wouldn't think worthy or fit for heaven, that is also OK since I trust he has fixed the problem I thought stood in the way. I'm with you 100% on this. Though He slay me yet will I trust Him. We must bow to His sovereignty, omniscience, omnipotence. Where else is there to go? Quote
SivartM Posted June 20, 2010 Author Posted June 20, 2010 I don't know if I'm a universalist or not. I just know that I wouldn't give up on any of my children. So I don't know why God would. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2010 Moderators Posted June 20, 2010 Quote: John317: I assume you don't mean you'd like for everyone to read each and every link you posted before they respond. I think it's even more essential for people to study the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy and know those sources really well. If people studied and knew the books of Daniel and Revelation and the Great Controversy, they would know that there's no truth to the idea of Universal salvation. One can't believe in it without first rejecting a lot of Scripture and almost the whole of the SOP. Quote: SivartM: I just want people to know what Christian universalism is! Which you don't! Because you have an incorrect preconceived idea of it, that it means that everyone goes to heaven no matter what, which is not true. Yes, I know what Christian universalism is. I've studied religions, including universalism, since the early 1970s, at both public and private colleges. Christian and non-Christian religions are a favorite subject of mine. Can you tell when you believe people who died will change and become obedient to God's will, and why they will do it? For instance, what will God teach or show the Devil that he doesn't already know and hasn't known for thousands of years? One of the purposes of the resurrection of the wicked is to demonstrate that they haven't changed and wouldn't benefit from a third chance. They prove to the whole universe that they are settled into rebellion and cannot be moved. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted June 20, 2010 Moderators Posted June 20, 2010 Quote: As I said before, yesterday's heretics are today's saints... There are heretics, and then there ARE heretics! Quote
SivartM Posted June 20, 2010 Author Posted June 20, 2010 I don't know if I'm a universalist or not. I just know that I wouldn't give up on any of my children. So I don't know why God would. This is my final answer. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 20, 2010 Administrators Posted June 20, 2010 Why do you all want so badly for people to die? FOREVER? Because it seems like believing that they will and liking that belief is the same as liking their death. My first reaction which I did not post, fits here. The Investigative Judgment is just a different spin in the ages old hell fire and brimstone idea of God rewarding the righteous and punishing the unrighteous. The reason we do not let go of it and resist universalism is that down deep we expect God to be fair and think mercy and forgiveness (accept for ourselves) is unfair. A generous God that pours out his favor on the just and the unjust is being unfair. We just want him to save us and our friends, the ones just like us. We actually are pleased by the idea that God will punish and destroy our enemies, the bad people, those we do not like, those that have hurt us, etc. The hell with the rest of them... What disturbs us is that God could forgive and save them too. That reminds me of the reaction of one of the relatives of one of the victims of Jeffery Dahmer upon learning that he accepted Christ as his personal Savior while in prison. With the realization that he could be forgiven and make it to heaven, the response was, "If that means he will be in heaven, then I do not want to be there." Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
rodgertutt Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism Which view of salvation is true? Two good expositions specifically answering that question! ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html OPPOSERS OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM REFUTED If necessary, copy and paste the links into your browser. COMMON ARGUMENTS ADDRESSED Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html and Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm CONSEQUENCES OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm RESPONSES TO CURRENT CHAMPIONS OF ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY Don Hewey http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyOnAion.html http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableTwo.html http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableThree.html Eric Landstrom http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom.html http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Landstrom2.html http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EricLConceptofAion.html http://www.savior-of-all.com:80/aionian.html Matt Slick http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/matt_slick_doubletalk.html http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html http://scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html http://indefenceofthecross.blogspot.com/2008/06/rebuttal-to-matt-slick-on-universalism.html http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/704708-my-letter-carm-run-matt-slick.html Tom Logan http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/TomLogan1Cor1528.html Hal Lindsey http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/reply.htm Dwane http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/EonLimitGod.html W. E. Vine http://www.saviourofall.org/poisonfruitofvine.html A great fifteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid Biblical perspective. Highly Recommended! THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM Copy and paste into Google GOD’S TRUTH FOR TODAY LIBRARY http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html (98% UR writers) and IN THE GARDEN http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism down through the centuries. Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism. http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html also see http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/Church-History.html TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html http://tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html Quote
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2010 Moderators Posted June 20, 2010 Quote: SivartM: I don't know if I'm a universalist or not. I just know that I wouldn't give up on any of my children. So I don't know why God would. That's why Jesus waits. God doesn't give up on people until there's nothing more He can do. The father of the Prodigal son had to give him up and let him go. He didn't force him to stay at home. God is the same way. That father had no way of knowing he would see his son again. Hosea is about the very things you're talking about. It portrays God as crying over his people, "How can I give you up?" But finally he says, "Let him alone; he's attached to his false gods." A loving God won't force us to be saved. Would you force your child to be with you even if she or he doesn't want to be? Humans might but that's because our love isn't like God's love. God won't compel anyone to live eternally with Him in heaven. Why? Because He knows people who love sin will be miserable throughout eternity in a universe where they can't do or have what makes them happy. And so he lets them go, even though it hurts Him and even though He has the power to force them to stay. That's REAL love. He puts their freedom of choice before His own desires. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
SivartM Posted June 20, 2010 Author Posted June 20, 2010 That's why Jesus waits. God doesn't give up on people until there's nothing more He can do. Nothing more he can do? He's omnipotent! Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
karl Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 Originally Posted By: John317 That's why Jesus waits. God doesn't give up on people until there's nothing more He can do. Nothing more he can do? He's omnipotent! He cannot lie. The theologies that have God lying are bogus. If He says some people will have their part in the lake of fire, that's what will happen. If he says some will be joined to their idols, that's gonna happen too. He doesn't make it happen, but He knows it will. Quote
Members phkrause Posted June 20, 2010 Members Posted June 20, 2010 This is my final answer. You watch too much "I want to be a Millionaire" LOL Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2010 Moderators Posted June 20, 2010 Quote: John317:That's why Jesus waits. God doesn't give up on people until there's nothing more He can do. Quote: SivartM: Nothing more he can do? He's omnipotent! Yes, God's omnipotent, but there are some things that even an omnipotent God will not do. He won't force people to accept Him and He won't force people to be saved. He's has the power to do it but it's against His character of love. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
SivartM Posted June 20, 2010 Author Posted June 20, 2010 Haha, I haven't watched it in years. But it really is my final answer. Because apparently in some people's opinion, I'm more patient than God. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Robert Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 Taken out of context....You have the mind of a legalist. Quote
Robert Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 Why do you all want so badly for people to die? FOREVER? Love of self...as long as it's not them....Legalism, BTW, is the love of self. It's the flesh taking pride in it's performance. Quote
Robert Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 You keep saying that Siv. So are you a universalist now? Beats being a legalist Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 20, 2010 Administrators Posted June 20, 2010 ... is it wrong for me to want so badly for this to be true? If not... shouldn't it be true? If so... why? I think it speaks well of you that you do want so badly for this to be true. It speaks to the ultimate optimism and faith in a God that saves to the uttermost. It is a childlike faith in a God/Father that can do anything, fix anything and make all things right. It reconciles many conundrums of our experience. If we love as God loves we should want it to be true. For the why of it being wrong for you to want it so badly, I'll leave to others that seem to feel a need to save your soul from this "heresy". Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 20, 2010 Administrators Posted June 20, 2010 ...In the doctrine of universalism, there is no free will. Everyone is going to heaven, whether they want to or not. Actually no. Universalists are not in agreement about free will. If you had read even the first article you would have seen that... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
pnattmbtc Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 Isn't "Christian Universalism" an oxymoron? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2010 Moderators Posted June 20, 2010 Quote: Richard Holbrook: ...In the doctrine of universalism, there is no free will. Everyone is going to heaven, whether they want to or not. Quote: Tom Wetmore: Actually no. Universalists are not in agreement about free will. If you had read even the first article you would have seen that... About the only thing Universalists agree on is that everyone will somehow inherit the kingdom of God. Compare the concept of the Universalists with the plain teachings of the Bible: 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Rev. 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. [13] And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. [14] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. [15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. The concept and teaching of universal salvation is a lie, and we know all lies originate with the father of lies. 1 John 2:21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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