Christian Universalism

[Robert]

Sorry Sivart but this is what EGW had to say about American slaves:

"God cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been . . ."Spiritual Gifts Vol.1 p. 193

I guess not everyone is reconciled to God?

Alex

So Satan wins and God loses? Wow, just make folks into slaves and you can snuff out their salvation. That's a lot of folks since time began. Me thinks EGW got this one wrong....

[olger]

IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO WANT IT TO BE TRUE. Though most here would disagree with me, I am one who believes that ultimately God will wait it out forever until all have reconciled themselves back unto Him. I believe God has bigger plans than any of us can imagine and I believe He hints at this in His reaction to the Ninevites.

(Not going to argue/defend my beliefs with anyone here. Just saying what I believe; offering my OPINION.)

Such a position underestimates the true nature of sin, and fails to account for many references of ashes being the only residue of the wicked.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: abelisle

I think you are right in wanting to believe that. Your love for your fellow man showws through.

But I am curious why no one is disturbed by the EGW quote I posted. That idea she writes is about is very troubling for me. A human being is considered to be a non-entity purely due to the way it was treated?

Alex

I think it has more to do with having never known God, than how they were treated. John 17:3 comes to mind.

Wherever there is an impulse of love [agape] and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God’s Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The “Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God.

And don't forget Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

No one has an excuse. God reveals Himself to all men through His Spirit.

[Robert]

Tom, you just made me think of something. Maybe Ellen means by "as thought they had never been"... as though they had never been held in ignorance and slavery?

You give EGW too much authority. She isn't infallible. She gets it wrong sometimes.

[olger]

There is nothing at all wrong with wanting everyone to be saved. In fact that is what God wants, 2Peter 3:9. But the Bible is very plain in telling us exactly what IS going to happen. So why the speculating, and acting like it is some obscure topic that hasn't been revealed to us yet?

Indeed. If I can challenge revealed truth by making it pass though a screening process of my own devising, I can be my own God.

oG

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

There is nothing at all wrong with wanting everyone to be saved. In fact that is what God wants, 2Peter 3:9. But the Bible is very plain in telling us exactly what IS going to happen. So why the speculating, and acting like it is some obscure topic that hasn't been revealed to us yet?

Indeed. If I can challenge revealed truth by making it pass though a screening process of my own devising, I can be my own God.

oG

I think the safest thing to do is take a kind of Pascal wager. It could be that God is going to save everybody. It might be that our response/obedience to Him is irrelevant.

Then again, it might not be. Are you willing to wager everything on a "might be?"

I'm not.

The Bible says "If we will to do His will, we shall know of the doctrine. It seems very unlikely that we need to "will to do His will" in order to understand that the doctrine is that we aren't required to do His will.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Tom, you just made me think of something. Maybe Ellen means by "as thought they had never been"... as though they had never been held in ignorance and slavery?

You give EGW too much authority. She isn't infallible. She gets it wrong sometimes.

...or incomplete, or misinterpreted what was revealed to her, or elaborated in her own very limited thinking, knowledge and experience too far beyond a mystery that she was shown and simply could not, or was not meant to, comprehend.

As I have suggested in another thread, if God is going to do a good thing about all the lifetime of horrible memories, which in large part make us who we are, so that we do not carry that evil baggage to the other side, re-programing of our brains has to be a very real part of the change in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye at the Second Coming. Those of you far along in that sanctification process have not noticed, all those memories are still embedded deep in your brain and can be triggered very easily and quite unexpectedly. For many that will be saved, those negative bits will comprise the overwhelming majority of their memories even if those events may have helped build their saved character. To carry those memories into the Kingdom for eternity would make it hell, not heaven.

Imagine for a moment both a rapist/murder and his victim both being saved. The last, freshest and most vivid memory of the victim will be that very event. Imagine running into the rapist soon after arriving in heaven. Doesn't sound very heavenly to me. But image God, rather than wiping out people "as though they had never been", simply wiping out the memory of the event as if it had never been. I think that the slave will be saved and changed in a moment into a new creation such as never could have been imagined. Even if there is very little left, God is a master with a blank canvas.

That is where I think we place too high of an expectation of perfection on inspiration. God does his part right, but his tools, the prophets, are very limited and imperfect and get some of the details wrong.

[stoney59]

egw is the 'lesser light' by her own admission. if you want to base your understanding on the lesser light rather than the 'greater light' of God's word, you're free to so. i believe God reconciled all men/women, slaves included. if God's grace cannot reach those who have been most ill-treated by humanity, those treated less than human, then the wonder of the Cross has lost its luster and glory. i believe God's Gift is for all of us. ALL OF US. this talk of sin having a greater impact on humanity than God's salvation troubles me. egw is wrong; i believe the 'greater light.'

[doug yowell]

[

Imagine for a moment if both a rapist/murder and his victim both being saved. The last, freshest and most vivid memory of the victim will be that very event. Imagine running into the rapist soon after arriving in heaven. Doesn't sound very heavenly to me. But image that God, rather than wiping out people "as though they had never been", but simply wiping out the memory of the event as if it had never been. I think that the slave will be saved and changed in a moment into a new creation such as never could have imagined. Even if there is very little left, God is a master with a blank canvas.

That is where I think we place too high of an expectation of perfection on inspiration. God does his part right, but his tools, the prophets are very limited and imperfect and get some of the details wrong.

Fortunately, we have many uninspired prophets who can help God get the correct details communicated properly. Tom, Are you suggesting that the UNREPENTANT rapist/murderer will have also been changed after the ressurection? Your illustration has them both in heaven and the victim's change occurring after death. Does this change go for both?

[doug yowell]

There you guys go again! Always trying to figure out a progressive idea by resorting to some old ancient manuscript.Sigh.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: olger

Indeed. If I can challenge revealed truth by making it pass though a screening process of my own devising, I can be my own God.

oG

I think the safest thing to do is take a kind of Pascal wager. It could be that God is going to save everybody. It might be that our response/obedience to Him is irrelevant.

Then again, it might not be. Are you willing to wager everything on a "might be?"

I'm not.

The Bible says "If we will to do His will, we shall know of the doctrine. It seems very unlikely that we need to "will to do His will" in order to understand that the doctrine is that we aren't required to do His will.

I don't think anyone suggested that we don't need to do God's will. Could you point out the specific comment?

[karl]

But image that God, rather than wiping out people "as though they had never been", but simply wiping out the memory of the event as if it had never been. I think that the slave will be saved and changed in a moment into a new creation such as never could have imagined. Even if there is very little left, God is a master with a blank canvas.

As long as you are OK with God resurrecting someone other than you, this will work. If God messes with your mind and your memories in the process of resurrection, it will not be not be you who is resurrected.

I think He heals memories rather than changing them. I think He will make our memories OK in a way that preserves our identities. I don't think it is going to be presto-chango. I'll bet the entire transformation takes a while. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Who knows but that it may continue in heaven? That first thousand years there may be some tears for God to wipe away.

[olger]

true

[Guest]

The Bible says "If we will to do His will, we shall know of the doctrine. It seems very unlikely that we need to "will to do His will" in order to understand that the doctrine is that we aren't required to do His will.

This may come as an epiphany to some. I like the way you have boiled it down and cut straight to the bottom line, so that anyone with common sense can understand it. And maybe even some without.

[Guest]

I don't think anyone suggested that we don't need to do God's will. Could you point out the specific comment?

If it is being suggested that an unrepentant rapist/murderer will be in heaven, then yes, it IS being suggested that doing God's will is unneccessary, and unimportant.

[John317]

Quote:

SivartM: I was fully expecting all the responses to be, "The Bible and Ellen White clearly say that..."

And... I was right.

What is your source of knowledge about this subject, if not the Bible and the SOP?

The only way anyone can believe in "universal salvation" is by rejecting much of the Bible as well as the Spirit of prophecy.

If someone already knows what the Bible and God's last-day prophet say, why would they want to believe something they know (or knew?) to be a lie?

The Bible says that if we really want to believe a lie, God will allow us to believe it. When we reach that point, there's not anything that even God can do to save us because He won't force us to believe the truth if we don't want it.

[Guest]

That is absolutely right John.

[Robert]

God's last-day prophet

Sorry, not the standard. Good things to say...bad things, yes, but not the standard of truth.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

God's last-day prophet

Sorry, not the standard. Good things to say...bad things, yes, but not the standard of truth.

Thanks Robert. I agree. The standard of truth is God's Word.

[SivartM]

What is your source of knowledge about this subject, if not the Bible and the SOP?

The only way anyone can believe in "universal salvation" is by rejecting much of the Bible as well as the Spirit of prophecy.

If someone already knows what the Bible and God's last-day prophet say, why would they want to believe something they know (or knew?) to be a lie?

The Bible says that if we really want to believe a lie, God will allow us to believe it. When we reach that point, there's not anything that even God can do to save us because He won't force us to believe the truth if we don't want it.

I didn't say that the Bible and Ellen were wrong. I just meant that I thought that the only answers I'd get would be how it was just obviously wrong, because look at this list of texts, now go play in the sandbox my young friend.

And most of the answers are like that.

Are you saying I'd be lost if I believed that God would reconcile everyone to himself? What are the negative consequences of this belief?

[doug yowell]

[

Are you saying I'd be lost if I believed that God would reconcile everyone to himself? What are the negative consequences of this belief?

Would you please clarify what you mean by "reconciling everyone to Himself" my young friend?

[SivartM]

I mean, eventually everyone loves God. Basically.

[doug yowell]

I mean, eventually everyone loves God. Basically.

Ok, and the results of that would be......??

[SivartM]

Everyone is saved.

Yay.

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Imagine for a moment if both a rapist/murder and his victim both being saved. The last, freshest and most vivid memory of the victim will be that very event. Imagine running into the rapist soon after arriving in heaven. Doesn't sound very heavenly to me. But image that God, rather than wiping out people "as though they had never been", but simply wiping out the memory of the event as if it had never been. I think that the slave will be saved and changed in a moment into a new creation such as never could have imagined.

We know that there will be murderers and their victims in heaven, but they will be murderers and victims who have truly repented for their sins and turned away from them, placing their faith completely in God.

For instance, both Manassah and Isaiah will be there, and I'm sure Isaiah will have some questions as to why the man who had him killed is saved in the kingdom of God. But Manessah genuinely repented and allowed God to change his life.

God won't wipe out the memory of things that happened on this earth. If He did that, what lessons will people have learned by going through these experiences on earth?

Also, if God would just wipe out things He doesn't want us to remember, why doesn't He do that for everyone and change everyone's mind and character?

But is God a puppeteer, manipulating us so that we become like He wants us to be, against our will? No. He only changes us if we really want Him to change us, and we show by our lives if we truly want it. He doesn't go just by our words. Mere claims or profession of faith is worth little. That is why before the end, the Investigative Judgment will reveal people's thoughts and the intentions of their hearts, not merely what they claim.

I think it's critical to remember Jesus' words in John 3, that no one will see God's kingdom without first being born of the Spirit. And 1 Cor. 6: 9-11 shows that there are some people who won't see the kingdom of God. We can't very well be honest with the text and at the same time say that people who were practicing those sins right up to the moment of their death will be saved.

Rev. 22: 15 shows also that not only will all those sins be outside the Holy City but so will people who practice them.