Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2010 Moderators Posted June 22, 2010 Quote: SivartM: I just want people to know what Christian universalism is! Which you don't! Because you have an incorrect preconceived idea of it, that it means that everyone goes to heaven no matter what, which is not true. Why do you want everyone to know what Christian universalism is? The truth is that universalism teaches that no matter what people do, they will eventually be saved in God's kingdom. Universalists teach that even if someone dies while in the act of raping and murdering, he will eventually find himself reunited with God in heaven. Is this true? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
SivartM Posted June 22, 2010 Author Posted June 22, 2010 Why do you want everyone to know what Christian universalism is? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
doug yowell Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 Quote: The truth is that universalism teaches that no matter what people do, they will eventually be saved in God's kingdom. Universalists teach that even if someone dies while in the act of raping and murdering, he will eventually find himself reunited with God in heaven. Is this true? Sort of, but you're leaving out the part about them repenting and obeying God's will. "Eventually" entails a lot more than just sitting around thinking about how great sin is while you're waiting for the door to heaven to open.Yes, but it also should be obvious that there are billions who do not repent before they die.Many are killed instantaneously while they are in the process of their horrible crimes. So the eventually,for them, would have to be sometime after they die. "For it is given unto man once to die and then the judgment." "For it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED...TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTENCE." ect...ect...ect...It is said that one does not study the counterfeit to determine whether the true is legitimate or not. There are probably more verses in the Bible that refer to the impending judgment than the impending salvation and none of them allow for an eternal Woodstock. Quote
doug yowell Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 By the way, I was fully expecting all the responses to be, "The Bible and Ellen White clearly say that..." And... I was right. That's what you asked for in your original post so I assume you are satisfied to see these responses. Quote
doug yowell Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 I've been reading some about Christian Universalism (see http://www.christianheretic.com/hell). Now, it doesn't mean that everyone goes right to heaven even if they hate God and they live happily/miserably ever after. It means that, eventually, everyone is reconciled to God. And I want to believe it. Not so that I can be a hedonist because even if I die I'll still get eternal life... but just because I really love everyone. Is it bad for me to want to believe it? Do you think that this goes against the Bible? (And, of course, what would Ellen say?) Again... is it wrong for me to want so badly for this to be true? If not... shouldn't it be true? If so... why? Is it wrong to want to believe this? Is it wrong to want to believe something that is not true? How badly do you want to believe it? Bad enough to believe it? Bad enough to be willing to suffer the consequences of believing a lie? Bad enough to risk your eternal destiny on it? Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 22, 2010 Members Posted June 22, 2010 Um... because it's not really very logical to argue about something when you have an incorrect idea of what it is. Originally Posted By: SivartM "If you wouldn't mind, please stop arguing; if you can't possibly get along with someone, then log off and go do something to make the world a better place. Kthxbai." - SivartM gotta watch what you write here... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
SivartM Posted June 22, 2010 Author Posted June 22, 2010 Is it wrong to want to believe this? Is it wrong to want to believe something that is not true? How badly do you want to believe it? Bad enough to believe it? Bad enough to be willing to suffer the consequences of believing a lie? Bad enough to risk your eternal destiny on it? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2010 Moderators Posted June 22, 2010 Quote: John317: Why do you want everyone to know what Christian universalism is? Quote: SivartM: Um... because it's not really very logical to argue about something when you have an incorrect idea of what it is. Isn't it enough to know that the Bible teaches many people will be lost whereas universalism teaches that everyone will eventually be saved? My question is why do you specifically want people to know what universalism is. In other words, is there a reason you want them to know about universalism as opposed to, say, Buddhism or Hinduism? If it's necessary to study all the false teachings in the world before knowing what's true, one would spend the rest of one's life studying false teachings because there are countless counterfeit beliefs. By studying the information about universalism that you found on the web-sites, do you believe it's possible that everyone will be saved, despite the fact that the Bible contains clear teachings to the contrary? Or does it seem to you that the Bible isn't really clear about what happens to the wicked? I read somewhere that you're taking classes in the Fall at Andrew University. Are you interested in studying world religions or maybe the philosophy of religion? Those are all interesting majors. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
SivartM Posted June 22, 2010 Author Posted June 22, 2010 My question is why do you specifically want people to know what universalism is. In other words, is there a reason you want them to know about universalism as opposed to, say, Buddhism or Hinduism?Because this discussion is not about Buddhism or Hinduism. It's about universalism. Since it's about universalism, the people in the discussion should be familiar with universalism. If it was about Buddhism, they should be familiar with Buddhism. If it's about Calvinism, they should be familiar with Calvinism. But while you don't have to study any of them, it makes sense to if you're going to talk about it. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2010 Moderators Posted June 22, 2010 Quote: JOHN3:17: The truth is that universalism teaches that no matter what people do, they will eventually be saved in God's kingdom. Universalists teach that even if someone dies while in the act of raping and murdering, he will eventually find himself reunited with God in heaven. Is this true? Quote: SivartM: Sort of, but you're leaving out the part about them repenting and obeying God's will. "Eventually" entails a lot more than just sitting around thinking about how great sin is while you're waiting for the door to heaven to open. Yes, I realize I didn't go into the part about people repenting and obeying God's will. When would this would occur? I assume this must happen during the 1000 years or at the end of it. But do you find any Bible evidence for it during that period of time? Also, WHY does everyone repent and obey God? Of course this must also include the repentence and conversion of Satan and the evil angels. What do you believe the demons will learn that will so dramatically change their minds and the characters they've developed over thousands and thousands of years? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2010 Moderators Posted June 22, 2010 Quote: SivartM: Because this discussion is not about Buddhism or Hinduism. It's about universalism. Since it's about universalism, the people in the discussion should be familiar with universalism. If it was about Buddhism, they should be familiar with Buddhism. If it's about Calvinism, they should be familiar with Calvinism. But while you don't have to study any of them, it makes sense to if you're going to talk about it. OK, let's seriously discuss universalism, then. Let me begin by asking you if you see anything in the Bible-- which I assume is your standard of truth-- that clearly contradicts the teaching of universalism? In other words, do you think Universalism can be harmonized with valid exegesis of Bible texts dealing with this topic? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2010 Moderators Posted June 22, 2010 Quote: John317: My question is why do you specifically want people to know what universalism is. In other words, is there a reason you want them to know about universalism as opposed to, say, Buddhism or Hinduism? Quote: SivartM: Because this discussion is not about Buddhism or Hinduism. ....If it was about Buddhism, they should be familiar with Buddhism. If it's about Calvinism, they should be familiar with Calvinism. But while you don't have to study any of them, it makes sense to if you're going to talk about it. I certainly agree with you here. So we should look forward to serious discussions on the Forum about all the various world religions and major denominations. I do enjoy studying them, but my purpose in doing so is to understand the beliefs of people I talk to about the gospel. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2010 Moderators Posted June 22, 2010 Quote: doug yowell:Is it wrong to want to believe this? Is it wrong to want to believe something that is not true? How badly do you want to believe it? Bad enough to believe it? Bad enough to be willing to suffer the consequences of believing a lie? Bad enough to risk your eternal destiny on it? Quote: SivartM: You're saying that I will be lost if I believe that God saves people? Not that God saves people, no. Of course not. But that he saves all people, yes. Why? Because it's rejecting the clear words of God. The reason is that if I believe everyone will be saved eventually, it means I can live any way I want to now and still be saved. It certainly doesn't teach that we urgently need to be preparing for Christ's return. Remember that Jesus said, "Watch. Stay awake. Be ready." God had a good reason for inspiring the Bible to tell us about how He saves people. If we want to believe the Bible is in error on a major topic such as salvation, it can eventually lead us to believe the Bible contains many other errors, so that finally we may give up our confidence in it altogether. There are many people who've already traveled down this wide road. So, yes, any time we reject the truth for a lie-- because we want to believe it-- it can be risking our salvation. Our only safety is in believing the truth as it is in Jesus. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
doug yowell Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 You're saying that I will be lost if I believe that God saves people? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 Trust is faith. Choice is free will. Choosing to trust is an exercise of free will, of course. How much is enough? How perfect is my trust/faith? Is it flawed? Is it biased? Has it been shaped/warped by my experience and my inherited tendencies? What might weaken or strengthen my ability to choose to trust/believe/have faith? Is mine the same as yours? What if I had not had the advantage of being raised by a loving father that set the tone of my relationship of trust with my heavenly father? The "what-ifs" are too numerous to list. There is such a huge spectrum of possibilities that include people who cannot even trust anybody or who lack even an ability to make the choice (exercise of free will) to trust, because they are so damaged by heredity or experience. They can hardly understand the options much less will themselves to go in any direction other than what circumstances, heredity and experiences compel them, very much against even what little will-power they might have. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Adriano Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 So by that rationale if a baby knows not God, is he to suffer the same fate? Quote 1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.1Th 5:21 prove all things; hold fast that which is good;
Moderators John317 Posted June 24, 2010 Moderators Posted June 24, 2010 There are many things that we have to leave in God's hands. The Bible really tells us nothing about what will happen to babies, but we know that God loves them and will do what is best for them and for His universe. We can trust God with our babies. I lost a 4 year grandson only a month ago. I know God will do what is best. That's all that matters. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
olger Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 I believe that we are going to hear more of the universalism motif as the Emerging Jello continues to devour churches and believers. Universalism is after all a persistent bedfellow of the emerging movement. Look for it and look carefully... g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
SivartM Posted June 26, 2010 Author Posted June 26, 2010 http://www.christianheretic.com/2007/09/if-you-were-universalist.html Quote: Ballou was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister one day, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, “Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I’d still go to heaven.” Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, “If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you.” Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
doug yowell Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 http://www.christianheretic.com/2007/09/if-you-were-universalist.html Quote: Ballou was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister one day, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, “Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I’d still go to heaven.” Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, “If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you.” Clever answer, but irrelevent.The Baptist minister could have left out the "If I were a Universalist" part and his outcome would have remained the same. Quote
Guest Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 http://www.christianheretic.com/2007/09/if-you-were-universalist.html Ballou was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister one day, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, “Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I’d still go to heaven.” Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, “If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you. Is this supposed to be an argument for universalism? Wow. The Bible plainly tells us from Genesis to Revelation (so does EGW) that everybody is not going to be saved. So why would anybody want to latch on to a doctrine that is so obviously nothing but a lie of Satan? It makes no sense. This is one of those smooth sayings if you will. No need to worry, everybody is going to be saved. Isa 30:8-Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come.......9That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: 10Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: 2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own desires shall they heap to themselves teachers,.... 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Quote
WayneV Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 Sivart, I enjoy reading your posts. You have deep thoughts for one so young. Moreover, you are not afraid to explore those thoughts in the light of public forum. Please don't be discouraged from exploring. Study, compare, contrast, and most of all pray. If you earnestly seek the Truth, you will find Him! Whether or not the teachings of Universalism are correct, I will not say. However, in the study of those teachings, there is much to be learned regarding Scripture and the grace of God. Keep searching. Your sincerity and passion are a breath of fresh air. Agape` Quote WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream!
Woody Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 AMEN Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Guest Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Ballou was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister one day, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, “Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I’d still go to heaven.” Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, “If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you.” In addition to making a point about Christian Universalism this story also points out a common misunderstanding of salvation itself by many Christians. The Baptist in the story forgot that any Christian who believed in Eternal Security (the idea of “Once Saved, Always Saved”) could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and still go to heaven. This concept isn’t limited to Christian Universalists, it’s relevant to any Christian who believes in salvation by grace alone. ____________________________________________ Wow, I never thought of it that way before. But it's true, anybody who believes in "once saved always saved" is basically falling for the same falsehood that the Universalist is. Only you can't really call them Universalists because they're saved and you're not. lol At least that's the way they seem to come off to me, the ones that I've known. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.