Step to Apostasy

[antcreations]

I have always believed baptism was about ones acceptance of Christ and membership in the SDA church was secondary. The emphasis is that the church members are a family and will help to guide the 'new' person along their journey. Yes, they have studied the basics and expressed a desire to be then baptized. Upon rising from the water there is a spontaneous burst of clapping and amens. Then the individual is voted into the church, more of a formality.

It has been a long time since I've heard the 'list', had forgotten that their was such.!

Elder Ted said no clapping. Just Amen.

[olger]

All people are accountable to the Father Coasp. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9).

God invites us into the Body of Christ where we are also accountable to one another "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind" (Ephesians 4).

be blessed,

g

[Gerr]

I tend to agree with what you've said in the above. Yet, there's more to Adventism than 28 fundamental beliefs.

Do you want to make the list longer?

[Gerr]

I was asking you, since you made the proposal that instruction should follow baptism.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: Wouldn't it be better and make more sense if they knew these basic teachings before they decided to join the church?

Quote:

antcreations: ... Some aspects of our faith are foundational and others mere commentary.

This is true, of course. So, then, which ones should the church consider foundational?

Today we have attacks coming from within the church even on the foundations. There are people claiming to be SDAs who believe in virtually anything-- from the idea that Paul is of the devil and Ellen White is a false prophet to the view that God used evolutionary processes over millions of years to "create" all of life. If those topics are not foundational in the SDA church, then nothing is.

[antcreations]

I was asking you, since you made the proposal that instruction should follow baptism.

that is my understanding of Matthew 28. What is yours?

[Woody]

Is the Great Gospel Commission directed towards individuals or an organized church?

[John317]

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo: Suppose we followed the order you suggest. A person accepts Jesus and we baptize them into the church. What if after baptism they do not agree with the Sabbath? And would rather believe the secret rapture rather in the visible, glorious return of Christ? And would also rather believe that lost sinners burn in hell forever and ever ad infinitum?

Quote:

antcreations: what do you think?

I think we need to make sure people coming into the church know what the church believes and teaches BEFORE they make that decision. It seems to me to be the only honest way to approach it. That's better than saying, "Oh, by the way, I don't know if anyone told you, but we believe in the Investigative Judgment. It's a central doctrine and affects most of the teachings of the church. Are you OK with that? You don't mind, do you?"

[Gerr]

If your Dad were to tell you, lock the door and turn off the lights when you leave the house, is it necessary that you do it in THAT order?

PS

Actually, baptism presupposes some type of instruction, otherwise how would anyone decide to be baptized?

[Woody]

Lets compare apples with apples. Are we talking about voting people into membership of the SDA church's beliefs .... or are we talking about 'baptizing' them into the body of Christ?

There is a HUGE difference.

One is through a vote and the other is through baptism.

[Gerr]

The body of Christ IS the church.

[Gerr]

Is the Great Gospel Commission directed towards individuals or an organized church?

What is ekklesia?

Do you call people out only to turn them loose?

[Woody]

Then there should not be any voting. That would be unBiblical. Can anyone show me strictly from the Bible if voting is Biblical. I would like to know. And please .... just use scripture.

[Gerr]

Read Acts 1 & 15.

[antcreations]

If your Dad were to tell you, lock the door and turn off the lights when you leave the house, is it necessary that you do it in THAT order?

PS

Actually, baptism presupposes some type of instruction, otherwise how would anyone decide to be baptized?

I find your understanding of Matthew 28 interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[Woody]

[Woody]

Quote:

Actually, baptism presupposes some type of instruction, otherwise how would anyone decide to be baptized?

Baptism indicates we accept Jesus as our Saviour and that we want to learn MORE about Him in the FUTURE.

[John317]

Quote:

Gerry Cabalo:I was asking you, since you made the proposal that instruction should follow baptism.

Quote:

antcreations: that is my understanding of Matthew 28. What is yours?

The first step according to Matt. 28: 19 is that we make "disciples."

What is a disciple? Can someone become a disciple of Christ without knowing the teachings of Christ? Making disciples of all nations means teaching them. The word in Greek means to be instructed or trained. Compare Matt. 13 52, "... every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven ..."

The discipling and the teaching happen at the same time, before the baptism, but disciples are also to continue being taught after the baptism. Christians continue to learn throughtout their life, but they shouldn't still be learning basics.

[Woody]

what is the 'basics'?

Would you for instance include the IJ in that.

[John317]

Quote:

Woody:

Baptism indicates we accept Jesus as our Saviour and that we want to learn MORE about Him in the FUTURE.

There has to be more than merely indicating having accepted Jesus as Savior.

Matt. 28: 19 says to "disciple" people before baptism. This word means to instruct or teach them. The original language indicates that the discipling and the teaching happen at the same time before the baptism and that teaching continues on after the believer is a disciple of Christ. Some translations read, "instructing them at the same time...," that is, at the same time as the teaching and at the time of the baptism.

[Woody]

Jesus' command to teach comes after baptism. I don't understand why people need to know the 28 in order to join the church.

They need to accept Jesus. Period.

Our Sabbath School Lesson Study this quarter (Romans) - will be an awesome discussion on that. Just check this week's study: Jew & Gentile.

Excellent.

Woody likes

[John317]

Quote:

Woody:what is the 'basics'?

Would you for instance include the IJ in that.

The Investigative Judgment is one of the foundational pillars of our faith. Candidates for baptism should certainly be aware of those. I couldn't imagine anyone choosing to become a member of a church without the church making sure it's a step the person wants to make on the basis of accurate knowledge.

Many of the discussions on this Forum prove the need of including it along with other basic Bible teachings, such as the Bible as the word of God and the creation.

I'm not suggesting that people must know all the details of those foundational teachings, but they should know and believe the basics.

[John317]

Quote:

antcreations]Jesus' command to teach comes after baptism. I don't understand why people need to know the 28 in order to join the church.

They need to accept Jesus. Period.

I don't think new believers need to know all 28 Fundamental Beliefs, and certainly not all the details of those beliefs, but don't you agree that they should have some understanding of the basics?

Matt. 28: 19 first mentions "making disciples," and this means teaching and instructing. The present active participle, "teaching," is something that is intended to take place at the same time as the discipling and the baptizing. It doesn't mean to first baptize people and then teach them what it means to be a disciple.

A common practice in the SDA church is that we give people a set of Bible studies that cover the basic teachings, and then a pastor or Elder studies personally with the believer prior to baptism. Don't you think this is a good idea?

[teresaq]

to no one in particular, merely wishing to point out that there appears to be so much more to being baptised than just the "right" beliefs...

All, high or low, if they are unconverted, are on one common platform. Men may turn from one doctrine to another. This is being done, and will be done. Papists may change from Catholicism to Protestantism; yet they may know nothing of the meaning of the words, "A new heart also will I give you." Accepting new theories, and uniting with a church, do not bring new life to any one, even though the church with which he unites may be established on the true foundation. Connection with a church does not take the place of conversion. To subscribe the name to a church creed is not of the least value to any one if the heart is not truly changed.--RH Feb. 14, 1899. {PaM 163.3}

[Woody]

Quote:

Woody:what is the 'basics'?

Would you for instance include the IJ in that.

The Investigative Judgment is one of the foundational pillars of our faith. Candidates for baptism should certainly be aware of those. I couldn't imagine anyone choosing to become a member of a church without the church making sure it's a step the person wants to make on the basis of accurate knowledge.

Many of the discussions on this Forum prove the need of including it along with other basic Bible teachings, such as the Bible as the word of God and the creation.

I'm not suggesting that people must know all the details of those foundational teachings, but they should know and believe the basics.

Again ... confusion reigns. There is NO doubt that the IJ and ALL the beliefs of the church should be accepted prior to becoming a member. That was never questioned by ANYone. SO, I am not sure what your point it.

But, to say that the IJ is necessaray prior to baptism is just plain ignorant in my view. How many of the early church had this understanding? In the early church people heard of Jesus and within one hour were baptized. So an understanding of the 28 fundmentals just can't be necesary for baptism. But certainly for membership ... yes.