Step to Apostasy

[John317]

Quote:

fccool: Do we have Biblical examples that Baptism comes several weeks/months after repentance and understanding the basics? Whenever I read about baptism, it seems to be in the context of "that day" most of the time.

The NT doesn't contain a command or a set time for when believers must be baptized. It is left up to the congregation and the pastor. The main issue is that the church has a right to know who they are accepting into church fellowship.

Why don't we baptize in exactly the same way that they did in the New Testament? They seemed to have baptized believers after a very short study or sermon.

Today's world is a different kind of world than that of the New Testament. Satan has learned a lot since then, and he's working far more intensely and with greater craftiness. He is no longer attacking the church only from the outside, but today he attacks the church mostly from the inside. Both God and Satan draw people into the SDA church. False doctrines are more numerous than in the first century. So the situation is more complex and the battle between good and evil is more subtle.

Unlike in the New Testament church, today's believers are often coming out of many false beliefs held by Christians. Most believers in the NT were either coming out of Judaism or false religions, but that is far different from the multitude of false beliefs inside Christian churches. It means that unless believers have studied into the church's teachings, they are likely to still have views contrary to those held by the SDA church.

The church has a right to know whether these people accept the beliefs of the church or whether they will cause strife and "teach things which they ought not" (Titus 1: 11).

At the same time there is a a great deal more Scriptural truth to learn. Today's church knows more truth than the early church because it has had more time to study the Scriptures and understands better the necessity of learning those truths.

I simply don't see any Biblical evidence for such interpretation. We are not "baptized into adventist church". Every time I hear that, it makes me cringe . We are baptized into Christ's body... universal body of Believers.

I agree the Bible is clear that believers are baptized into Christ, but that doesn't contradict the concept of entering into the church. When people are baptized, they immediately become part of the body of Christ, which means they become part of the church. "The church is His body..." Eph 1: 22, 23; cf Romans 12: 5; 1 Cor. 12: 27.

I have no trouble saying that I was baptized into Christ and into the church. The SDA church is certainly part of the Christian church. The church is made up of those who have been "called out" from the world into the community of faith. So baptism is the sign of entrance into the church. This describes the Seventh-day Adventist Church. And since baptism is the sign of entrance into the church, the body of Christ, it should only be given to those who not only profess faith in Christ but also give evidence of membership in the church. What evidence is that? Acts 10: 47 says, "'Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?'"

So they weren't baptized until they gave evidence of having first been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Gal. 3: 27 shows that those who were baptized had "put on Christ." When we put on Christ, there will be evidence that we've done so. Romans 13: 14 shows that the evidence of having put on Christ is a changed life. Compare Romans 6: 3-4; Titus 3: 5; Col. 2: 11-13. The baptism is an outward sign of an inward work of the Holy Spirit. Both washing and death and resurrection of Christ are symbolized by water baptism

It's vital that we realize what water baptism is, and that we understand we are entering into a covenant relationship with all three Persons of the Godhead. A lot of people don't realize this because they come into the church without knowing the Bible. If people don't know the Bible, they can't possibly know whether they believe what the Bible teaches. Similarly, if they don't know what the church stands for and teaches, they can't possibly know for sure whether they support it.

This means that a lot of people entering the church are being buried alive.

Any thoughts? :-)

[John317]

I find it ridiculous that people get re-baptized over the issue of Sabbath. Sure, they were off on certain doctrinal positions, but there can be only one Baptism. If you were baptized in the name of Jesus' Christ because you believed... the Holy Spirit is there to clear up misunderstanding. That's what He's there for. If we are to be re-Baptized until we get every issue right... might as well begin filling those baptisteries.

But this is up to the indvidual believer, not the church or the pastor or evangelist. If believers are convinced that they ought to be rebaptized, we shouldn't stand in the way or discourage them from doing it. On the other hand, if a person has been immersed in water after accepting Christ as Lord, they shouldn't be urged to be rebaptized. The decision has to be left up to the indvidual and the Holy Spirit. It's not for other people to decide.

Please check out what Mrs. White wrote about it:

As children of God, we claim to be brought under the direct leadings of the Spirit of God. Is the Holy Spirit among us? Are we moving under its guidance? If not, do not persist in dishonoring God, but come humbly before Him, and have heart and mind renovated, and the thoughts brought into unison with Christ Jesus. Then you can rejoice; then you can praise the Lord; then you can shout His praises with joyfulness. Those who have been baptized can claim the help of the three great Worthies of heaven to keep them from falling, and to reveal through them a character that is after the divine similitude. This is what we claim to be --followers of Jesus. We must be molded and fashioned in accordance with the divine pattern; and if you have lost your Christlikeness, my brethren and sisters, you can never, never come into communion with God again until you are reconverted and rebaptized. You want to repent and to be rebaptized, and to come into the love and communion and harmony of Christ. Then you will have spiritual discernment which will enable you to see those things that are above, where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God. There is enough to contemplate regarding heavenly things, to fill every heart and mind, every congregation that is in the land, with rejoicing and praise and thanksgiving to God. {Sermons and Talks, Vol. 1, pp. 365, 366.1}

Originally Posted By: fccool

The issue in Acts 18 is not the same issue as we make it out to be. It was a mode of faith. The faith was in the baptism of John, thus the faith was in the teachings of John.

You have a valid point.

But please look at what Ellen White wrote:

There is still another lesson for us in the experience of those Jewish converts. When they received baptism at the hand of John, they were holding serious errors. But with clearer light they gladly accepted Christ as their Redeemer; and with this advance step came a change in their obligations. As they received a purer faith, there was a corresponding change in their life and character. In token of this change, and as an acknowledgment of their faith in Christ, they were rebaptized, in the name of Jesus. {3SP 419.1}

When the Former Baptism Does Not Satisfy.-- There are many at the present day who have unwittingly violated one of the precepts of God's law. When the understanding is enlightened, and the claims of the fourth commandment are urged upon the conscience, they see themselves sinners in the sight of God. "Sin is the transgression of the law" and "he that shall offend on one point is guilty of all." {Ev 372.1}

The honest seeker after truth will not plead ignorance of the law as an excuse for transgression. Light was within his reach. God's Word is plain, and Christ has bidden him search the Scriptures. He reveres God's law as holy, just, and good, and he repents of his transgression. By faith he pleads the atoning blood of Christ, and grasps the promise of pardon. His former baptism does not satisfy him now. He has seen himself a sinner, condemned by the law of God. He has experienced anew a death to sin, and he desires again to be buried with Christ by baptism, that he may rise to walk in newness of life. Such a course is in harmony with the example of Paul in baptizing the Jewish converts. That incident was recorded by the Holy Spirit as an instructive lesson for the church.--Sketches From the Life of Paul, p. 133. (1883) {Ev 372.2}

Not to Be Made a Testing Question for New Believers.--The subject of rebaptism should be handled with the greatest care. After the truth is presented upon the Sabbath question and other important points of our faith, and souls manifest the moral courage to take their position upon the truth, they will see this question in the Bible light if they are fully converted. But by some these questions have been handled unwisely, and God has sent reproof many times on this point. Those who place the subject of rebaptism in the front, making it of as much importance as the Sabbath question, are not leaving the right impression upon the minds and correctly representing the subject. It requires great discrimination to bring in kindred truths with the Sabbath, rightly dividing the Word, giving to each his portion of meat in due season. {Ev 372.3}

Those who lift the cross of the Sabbath have a tremendous battle to fight with self and with selfish interests which would interpose between their souls and God. Then when they have taken this great step and their feet have been planted upon the platform of eternal truth, they must have time to become accustomed to their new position, and not be hurried on the question of rebaptism. No one should become a conscience for another or urge and press rebaptism. {Ev 373.1}

This is a subject which each individual must conscientiously take his position upon in the fear of God. This subject should be carefully presented in the spirit of tenderness and love. Then the duty of urging belongs to no one but God; give God a chance to work with His Holy Spirit upon the minds, so that the individual will be perfectly convinced and satisfied in regard to this advanced step. A spirit of controversy and contention should never be allowed to come in and prevail on this subject. Do not take the Lord's work out of His hands into your own hands. Those who have conscientiously taken their position upon the commandments of God, will, if rightly dealt with, accept all essential truth. But it needs wisdom to deal with human minds. Some will be longer in seeing and understanding some kindred truths than others, especially will this be the case in regard to the subject of rebaptism, but there is a divine hand that is leading them--a divine spirit impressing their hearts, and they will know what they ought to do and do it. {Ev 373.2}

Let none of our zealous brethren overdo this matter. They will be in danger of getting before the Lord and making tests for others which the Lord has not bidden them to make. It is not the work of any of our teachers to urge rebaptism upon anyone. It is their business to lay down the great principles of Bible truths, especially is this the case in regard to rebaptism. Then let God do the work of convicting the mind and heart. . . . {Ev 374.1}

Those who have long looked upon this subject see it quite clearly and think all others should see it just as they do. They do not consider that with some newly come to the faith this matter looks like denying all their former religious experience. But in time they will come to regard the matter differently. As the truth is constantly unfolding to their minds, they will see advanced steps to be taken; new light will flash upon their pathway; God's Spirit will work upon their minds, if men will not interfere and seek to drive them to the positions which they think are truth.{Ev 374.3}

Now let it be distinctly understood, from time to time all through our experience, God has given me testimonies of caution to our brethren in regard to handling the subject of rebaptism. Our good Brother _____ and several others of our ministers I was shown were making a mistake at some point in their experience in putting in the front and making a test question of rebaptism. This is not the way that the subject should be treated. It is a matter to be treated as a great privilege and blessing, and all who are rebaptized, if they have the right ideas upon this subject, will thus consider it. These good brethren were not bringing those newly come to the faith along step by step, cautiously and guardedly, and the result was that some were turned from the truth, when a little time and tender, careful dealing with them would have prevented all such sad results.--Letter 56, 1886. {Ev 375.1}

Reconversion and Rebaptism of Seventh-day Adventists.--The Lord calls for a decided reformation. And when a soul is truly reconverted, let him be rebaptized. Let him renew his covenant with God, and God will renew His covenant with him. . . . Reconversion must take place among the members, that as God's witnesses they may testify to the authoritative power of the truth that sanctifies the soul.-- Letter 63, 1903. {Ev 375.2}

Originally Posted By: fccool

Baptism is the outward expression of faith for the believer. Sure, if someone made a decision for you, then it's an example of you getting wet. But in most cases, I don't think this would be the case for a believer who is requesting to be Baptized.

Wouldn't you agree that's not the only time when rebaptism is appropriate.

I think it depends on the individual and what His convictions are. If someone believes that he ought to be rebaptized, under circumstances like those described by Ellen White, you wouldn't tell him he shouldn't be rebaptised, would you?

Originally Posted By: fccool

What we've done, is to take the baptism into universal Body of Christ, and turned it into the baptism into Adventist Church. It's not warranted.

I agree with you that if people see baptism as primarily the way into the church instead of into Christ, it is wrong, and they should be taught the meaning of baptism.

Before my 4 children were baptized, they studied all the scriptures related to baptism; we talked together about them; and then later they also studied with the pastor who baptized them. And then sometimes we still talk about it at family worship.

[fccool]

Quote:

Similarly, if they don't know what the church stands for and teaches, they can't possibly know for sure whether they support it.

John,

I agree that we should have certain standards. I agree that we should educate people on these standards. But what you are trying to point out is in fact that presence of Holy Spirit in our lives will inevitably lead us to Adventists truths

I don't believe that to be true, otherwise there will be many more than current 13 million Adventists.

So, while I agree with you that when we are baptized into body of Christ, we are likewise baptized into a church membership (local ecclesia) a a derivative of such relationship, yet the implications that you are setting is that in fact baptisms outside of SDA church are invalid

Now, I'm not talking about Catholic baptisms. I'm talking about Baptists, who in fact resurrected the meaning of the word.

Based on our standards, we would not baptize a Baptist.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Overaged]

quote]Similarly, if they don't know what the church stands for and teaches, they can't possibly know for sure whether they support it.

/quote]

John,

I agree that we should have certain standards. I agree that we should educate people on these standards. But what you are trying to point out is in fact that presence of Holy Spirit in our lives will inevitably lead us to Adventists truths

I don't believe that to be true, otherwise there will be many more than current 13 million Adventists.

There is a huge diference between "standards" and doctrinal beliefs.

I believe it is true that the Holy Spirit will inevitably lead to Adventist truths, and that numbers of people have nothing to do with it.

[Gerr]

They were the ones who knew nothing about the Investigative Judgment. And they still didn't ... even after baptism.

But they new the present truth for their time. Truth is not static, it is progressive. There were truths during the apostolic time that was present truth for that time that were not known during the patriarchal era. They latter had a present truth for their time also, just as we have a present truth for our time.

The thousands baptized at pentecost were not gentiles who would have had to have plenty of instructions, they already practicing requirements of the OT, the only step they had to take was belief in Jesus as the Messiah. In Acts, Paul spent time in places where he preached the gospel in order to have the believer thoroughly grounded.

Does it not make more sense to acquaint people with what the church believes before they join rather than find later that the church has some beliefs they could not accept and then leave? Why is that so hard to understand? And why the rush to baptize? Are people lost because they are baptized next week instead of today? What happened to the early church when they let in unconverted pagans? We got a paganized church!!!

[Bravus]

So, in another few hundred years, if we're still here, the tale will be much longer again?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

What do you mean by "this?"

I was referring to what I had in quotations of that post.

In my comments that you quoted, I was merely pointed out the dilemma that evangelists and any gospel worker have. If we baptize people without a good understanding of what we believe, and they find out later there are some teachings they can't accept or have second thoughts over, they leave - in droves. Besides, what's the big rush to baptize people? Get numbers?

There has to be some balance between openness and exclusivity.

As I said in another post, the church can't be so open that it takes it every garbage dumped on it, or so exclusive that only a select few can get in it.

[Gerr]

If truth is progressive, it's inevitable, isn't it? Or are there no more truths to be discovered?

[Gerr]

Quote:

There is a huge diference between "standards" and doctrinal beliefs.

Can you please explain what that huge difference is?

[Gerr]

I don't know them personally:

The point is that the thousands converted & baptized at pentecost were Jews already steeped in the Law. The only step they had to take was a belief in Christ as the Messiah. They were not pagans who had to be taught the ABCs about God or holy living.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The body of Christ IS the church.

Yes, my point, but I do not equate that with being a member of a particular church.

I have no problem if someone wants to be baptized but does not want to join any particular church. However, I'd like to know what preacher would baptize someone that he knows is going to join another church.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Ah, now we know what the real issue is....hmmm, more than accepting Christ? What, pray tell?

Don't you think it would be important for baptismal candidates to know what it means to accept Christ as one's personal savior?

Thief on the cross, what must I do? Believe on the Lord Jesus. (no time for baptism)

Jailer to Paul and Silas, what must I do? Believe......... !

Hitch hiking Phillip teaches a person on a ride in a chariot(not much suspension) and then baptized the person!

Since the eunuch was already a worshiper of the true God, and since he was reading from Isaiah, that means to me that he was already acquainted with Jewish customs & practices. The only thing he lacked in order to be baptized was to know and accept the Messiah in the person of Jesus Christ. He was not some pagan who had to the learn the ABCs about God and holy living.

[Gerr]

According to the Gospel Commission ... that is our task.

The gospel commission is: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Mt 28:19-20 ESV.

3100 μαθητεύω [matheteuo /math·ayt·yoo·o/] v. From 3101; TDNT 4:461; TDNTA 552; GK 3411; Four occurrences; AV translates as “teach” twice, “instruct” once, and “be disciple” once. 1 to be a disciple of one. 1a to follow his precepts and instructions. 2 to make a disciple. 2a to teach, instruct.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G3100). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

1321 διδάσκω [didasko /did·as·ko/] v. A prolonged (causative) form of a primary verb dao (to learn); TDNT 2:135; TDNTA 161; GK 1438; 97 occurrences; AV translates as “teach” 93 times, and “taught + 2258” four times. 1 to teach. 1a to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses. 1b to be a teacher. 1c to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one’s self as a teacher. 2 to teach one. 2a to impart instruction. 2b instill doctrine into one. 2c the thing taught or enjoined. 2d to explain or expound a thing. 2f to teach one something.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G1321). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

[Woody]

Quote:

However, I'd like to know what preacher would baptize someone that he knows is going to join another church.

Where do you get this idea that it has to be a preacher who baptizes?

[fccool]

Gerry,

Cornelius... was a gentile who prayed and practiced God's law. You are assuming that modern day "pagans" know nothing about God's law, but that's not true. The laws of our nation are built on that law.

They celebrate Christmas every year, they celebrate Easter. If you poll people about basics of Christian faith... they know what's going on.

I grew up in secular Soviet Union with secular parents, and when I asked my mom who Jesus was... she layed out to me the entire "legend" of Christianity. Adam failed, God flooded the world, then gave Jews their nation where Jesus was born and then died for our sins and resurrected.

This was in the godless Soviet Union. Sure, people think of it as mythology... but don't think that they don't have some kind of base and that they completely lack understanding.

It's clear from the Bible that Paul did not burden the Gentiles with Jewish laws. He just gave them basics, and let the Spirit do all the work.

[Overaged]

In my comments that you quoted, I was merely pointed out the dilemma that evangelists and any gospel worker have. If we baptize people without a good understanding of what we believe, and they find out later there are some teachings they can't accept or have second thoughts over, they leave - in droves. Besides, what's the big rush to baptize people? Get numbers?

There has to be some balance between openness and exclusivity.

As I said in another post, the church can't be so open that it takes it every garbage dumped on it, or so exclusive that only a select few can get in it.

Why can't someone be baptized when they ask to be? There is Biblical precedent for that. Why force everyone into the same mold? And why wouldn't a Pastor baptize someone knowing they won't join OUR church? I know it happens but it doesn't make sense.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Where do you get this idea that it has to be a preacher who baptizes?

I don't baptize, do you? Or a priest?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Why can't someone be baptized when they ask to be? There is Biblical precedent for that.

Do you belong to any club or association? Do they rules and regulations? Or can anyone who wants to join do so without agreeing to them? I've been on the staff on a number of hospitals. Every one of them have rules & regs. They try to be inclusive and exclusive at the same time. Some standards have to be maintained. Should a church be any different?

Quote:

Why force everyone into the same mold?

Aren't we all supposed to be molded according to Christ?

Quote:

And why wouldn't a Pastor baptize someone knowing they won't join OUR church? I know it happens but it doesn't make sense.

I don't know that you can't. I was just saying that it may be difficult to find a minister who would baptize someone so they could join could join another church.

[Gerr]

Yeah, I've heard of people being baptized into the SDA church after learning about the church within a very short time, but they already studied themselves into the truths held by the church. IOW, the less one knows, it seems reasonable to me for such a person to take longer to be discipled. Again, what's the rush for baptism?

[Woody]

Quote:

Where do you get this idea that it has to be a preacher who baptizes?

I don't baptize, do you? Or a priest?

I was asking for Biblical support of your idea rather than personalization and annocdotal evidence. :)

[Woody]

Quote:

Should a church be any different?

I pray it is.

Jesus says come to me as you are. He doesn't have a list of rules and regulations you have to follow before you can come to Him. That would be backwards. We come to Him so we CAN do good.

[SivartM]

Weren't several thousand people baptized on Pentecost with less than a day of teaching on very few doctrines?

[Woody]

Weren't several thousand people baptized on Pentecost with less than a day of teaching on very few doctrines?

I guess our doctrines now are more complex. Just the Investigative Judgment could take at least ... oh say ... 6 months.

[Kevin H]

Weren't several thousand people baptized on Pentecost with less than a day of teaching on very few doctrines?

Then again these were people who had already known the doctrines, they were accepting the pressent truth about Jesus, possibly had listened to Jesus when he was teaching in the temple, maybe sang "Hosana" at the triumphal entry.

When our English translations says that the multitudes said "Crucify him" there is a misspelling of the Greek word "Multitude" but since it looks close to that word they translate it that way. But this mispelled Greek word is a correct spelled Hebrew word meaning those at hand, those who happened to be there,the "Multitudes" yelling crucify him were most likely only the 24 Saduceen elders. As Jesus was going to the cross the "Daughters of Jerusalem" were following and crying. The daughters of a person is the female ospring, but the daughters of a city are the common people, young and old, men and women. These who were baptized on Penticost were the daughters of Jersualem who were crying as Jesus was being taken to the cross.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Should a church be any different?

I pray it is.

Jesus says come to me as you are. He doesn't have a list of rules and regulations you have to follow before you can come to Him. That would be backwards. We come to Him so we CAN do good.

Doing good and knowing good are two different things. Yes, we come to Christ to get cleaned up. But don't you think they should KNOW what they need to be cleaned from?