Step to Apostasy

[Gerr]

Quote:

I don't baptize, do you? Or a priest?

I was asking for Biblical support of your idea rather than personalization and annocdotal evidence.

As I recall, in the NT, the disciples and those anointed with the laying on of hands did the baptizing. I'd like to see evidence that ANYONE could perform the rite.

[Woody]

As I recall, in the NT, the disciples and those anointed with the laying on of hands did the baptizing. I'd like to see evidence that ANYONE could perform the rite.

[Gerr]

If you think YOU are empowered to baptize, go ahead. I won't object!

[Woody]

Hey ... I appreciate that. And I will do so as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

[fccool]

Yeah, I've heard of people being baptized into the SDA church after learning about the church within a very short time, but they already studied themselves into the truths held by the church. IOW, the less one knows, it seems reasonable to me for such a person to take longer to be discipled. Again, what's the rush for baptism?

There is no rush...

I don't think that relative time-frame holds as much importance as denial to those who are willing to be baptized into the UNIVERSAL BODY OF CHRIST, but are not willing to conform to certain Adventist dogmas.

So, if they believe in the truth of the Sabbath, but reject E.G. White, Investigative Judgment, and Clean Foods docrtines (which are not essential for one's salvation)... then they kind of hung dry... literally :)

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yeah, I've heard of people being baptized into the SDA church after learning about the church within a very short time, but they already studied themselves into the truths held by the church. IOW, the less one knows, it seems reasonable to me for such a person to take longer to be discipled. Again, what's the rush for baptism?

There is no rush...

I don't think that relative time-frame holds as much importance as denial to those who are willing to be baptized into the UNIVERSAL BODY OF CHRIST, but are not willing to conform to certain Adventist dogmas.

So, if they believe in the truth of the Sabbath, but reject E.G. White, Investigative Judgment, and Clean Foods docrtines (which are not essential for one's salvation)... then they kind of hung dry... literally

What a shame. :(

[Gerr]

If a person wants to be baptized into the universal body of Christ without wanting to join the SDA church, I am sure there are plentry of churches that can accommodate them. And there are a few Sabbath-keeping churches besides the SDAC.

[Overaged]

Will anyone be brave enough to point us to where in the Bible we can find a definition of "apostasy?" Where in the Bible do we find a list which tells us what all we are to count as "apostasy?"

[fccool]

How many churches worship on Sabbath?

[Woody]

I suspect there are around a hundred denominations

[John317]

There are dozens of small groups which worship on the Sabbath day, but the SDA church is by far the largest and most prominant. The SDA church (including here the SDA Reform Movement) is also the only one (at least that I know of) that relates the Sabbath to last-day events and shows its importance to other biblical doctrines.

I think the next largest is the Seventh-day Baptists who are about the same size today as they were in the early 20th century.

[fccool]

None in our city

[Gerr]

apos•ta•sy \ə-ˈpäs-tə-sē\ n

pl -sies [ME apostasie, fr. LL apostasia, fr. Gk, lit., revolt, fr. aphistasthai to revolt, fr. apo- + histasthai to stand — more at stand] 14c

1 : renunciation of a religious faith

2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Apostasy.

Turning against God, as evidenced by abandonment and repudiation of former beliefs. The term generally refers to a deliberate renouncing of the faith by a once sincere believer rather than a state of ignorance or mistaken knowledge. Apostasy is distinguished from heresy (denial of a part of the faith), and from transfer of allegiance from one religious body to another within the same faith. Also, it is possible to deny the faith, as Peter once did, and then at a later time reaffirm it.

Originally, “apostasy” meant literal rebellion. Thus the Jews were described as “rebels” against King Artaxerxes (1 Esd 2:23) and Jason as a “rebel against the laws” (2 Mc 5:6–8). OT descriptions of spiritual rebellion include departure from the Law, forsaking temple worship, and willful disobedience toward God himself (Jos 22:22, rebellion or unfaithful act; 2 Chr 29:19, transgression kjv, or faithlessness; Jer 2:19, backslidings kjv, or apostasy). The prophetic writings of Isaiah and Jeremiah provide many examples of Israel’s defections (Is 1:2–4; Jer 2:19). Israelite kings were often guilty of apostasy (Rehoboam—1 Kgs 14:22–24; Ahab—1 Kgs 16:30–33; Ahaziah—1 Kgs 22:51–53; Jehoram—2 Chr 21:6, 10; Ahaz—2 Chr 28:1–4; Manasseh—2 Chr 33:1–19; Amon—2 Chr 33:21–23).

In NT times many disciples withdrew from Christ (Jn 6:66), the most notorious example being Judas Iscariot. The Greek word from which “apostasy” is derived appears in only two passages. The apostle Paul was accused of apostasy for being “against the laws of Moses” (Acts 21:21 lb). Apostasy was given an eschatological significance in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Christians were warned not to be carried away and deceived in the widespread apostasy to come in the end times before the Lord’s return. That apostasy is linked to the rise of a “man of rebellion” who will be “Satan’s tool” (2 Thes 2:3–12 lb; cf. 1 Tm 4:1–3).

Many other NT passages, using different words, convey similar warnings. In the last days, tribulation and persecution will cause many to “fall away” (Mt. 24:9, 10); false prophets will arise and “lead many astray” (Mt 24:11). Other causes of apostasy include temptation (Lk 8:13) and unbelief (Heb 3:12). Paul cited Hymenaeus and Alexander as examples of those who had rejected the faith (1 Tm 1:20). The writer of Hebrews referred to those who had believed and then departed from the faith as being in a hopeless state with no possibility of further repentance (Heb 6:1–6). The consequences of willful sinning after receiving Christ are terrifying (Heb 10:26–31). The apostle Peter said that, for believers in Christ who knowingly turned away, “the last state has become worse for them than the first” (2 Pt 2:20–22). The apostle John addresses this same problem (1 Jn 2:18, 19).

Ten periods of persecution intensified the problem of apostasy during the first four centuries of the church’s existence. Repentance and public confession were required before offenders could be accepted again. The Roman emperor Julian (361–63) renounced the Christian faith and made such a vigorous effort to establish paganism in the empire that he became known as “the Apostate.” Apostasy continues to be a danger to the Christian church, especially where the church is undergoing persecution.

Elwell, W. A., & Beitzel, B. J. (1988). Baker encyclopedia of the Bible. Map on lining papers. (130). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House.

apostasy, rebellion or abandonment of faith. It refers in the ot to Israel’s unfaithfulness to God (Jer. 2:19; 5:6; cf. Josh. 22:22; 2 Chron. 33:19) and in the nt to the abandonment of Christian faith (Heb. 6:6). In Acts 21:21, the Greek root of the word ‘apostasy’ is used for Paul’s alleged rejection of Moses and, in 2 Thess. 2:3, for an expected rebellion before the end.

Achtemeier, P. J., Harper & Row, P., & Society of Biblical Literature. (1985). Harper's Bible dictionary. Includes index. (1st ed.) (40). San Francisco: Harper & Row.

APOSTASY. In classical Gk. apostasia is a technical term for political revolt or defection. In lxx it always relates to rebellion against God (Jos. 22:22; 2 Ch. 29:19), originally instigated by Satan, the apostate dragon of Jb. 26:13.

There are two NT instances of the Gk. word. Acts 21:21 records that Paul was maliciously accused of teaching the Jews to forsake Moses by abandoning circumcision and other traditional observances. 2 Thes. 2:3 describes the great apostasy of prophecy, alongside or prior to the revelation of the man of lawlessness (cf. Mt. 24:10-12). The allusion is neither to the political nor to the religious infidelity of the Jews, but is entirely eschatological in character and refers to ‘the final catastrophic revolt against the authority of God which in apocalyptic writings is a sign of the end of the world’ (E. J. Bicknell, The First and Second Epistles to the Thessalonians, 1932, p. 74). It may be regarded as the earthly counterpart of the heavenly rebellion in Rev. 12:7-9.

Apostasy is a continual danger to the church, and the NT contains repeated warnings against it (cf. 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Thes. 2:3; 2 Pet. 3:17). Its nature is made clear: falling ‘from the faith’ (1 Tim. 4:1) and ‘from the living God’ (Heb. 3:12). It increases in times of special trial (Mt. 24:9-10; Lk. 8:13) and is encouraged by false teachers (Mt. 24:11; Gal. 2:4), who seduce believers from the purity of the Word with ‘another gospel’ (Gal. 1:6-8; cf. 2 Tim. 4:3-4; 2 Pet. 2:1-2; Jude 3-4). The impossibility of restoration after deliberate apostasy is solemnly urged (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26).

Wood, D. R. W., & Marshall, I. H. (1996). New Bible dictionary (3rd ed.) (57). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.

[Overaged]

Gerry, thanks for loking this all up and posting the info. I appreciate the effort. This is interesting and I will research it some now.

[teresaq]

How many churches worship on Sabbath?

i discovered several in the 70s, but have forgotten over the years which they were...

[fccool]

Gerry,

How would you classify the Catholic church during the Dark Ages?

[Gerr]

Corrupt. But the Bible describes it better in Rev 18.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, thanks for posting this. I had just finished a quick survey of the use of the word "apostacy" in Scripture. This confirms my tentative conclusion that much of what is being discusssed here is not necessarily what Scripture was talking about.

Just as some are debating the point of baptism - whether it is baptism into the body of Christ or the Adventist Church - there is a significant difference between apostacy from God and aspotacy from a Church. Scripture speaks of apostacy from God. What most here seem to be talking about is apostacy from the Adventist Church.

There seems to be an undercurrent of belief that being in the Adventist Church, or at least subscribing to our specific doctrines, is the same as being in Christ and it is necessary to subscribe to our brand of religion to be saved. It is as if apostacy from the Adventist Church is what is referred to in Scripture. That was the mistake of the Church of the Dark Ages. Man-made salvation/religion does not save. God saves.

It is religious arrogance to confuse the two. And that arrogant confusion is what is described in Revelation 18.

[fccool]

Turning against God, as evidenced by abandonment and repudiation of former beliefs... could be accurately applied to any church/individual that takes on a set of beliefs contrary to his/her former Biblical view... no matter how loose it was.

The falling away in the end times does not constitute rejecting belief in God/scripture all together, but rather the blindness to the meaning through traditional teachings.

The etymology of apostasy - apostasy - "rejection/revolt".

Going back to the original topic, I certainly believe that #1 and #2 would not stand alone as "steps to apostasy". I think these statements merely point to the danger of being judgmental based on certain interpretation of scripture that "does has not need of and will not be a subject to re-evaluation". Thus the creed of itself becomes what is lived by, and not Bible... and anyone who questions/rejects certain point of the creed automatically equated with rejecting God.

[Tom Wetmore]

And that rejection of a man-made creed resulting in being condemned (judged) as a heretic by the man-made religious system that devised the creed is precisely the confused religious arrogance described in Revelation 18.

And our arrogance is presuming that we are safe from that apostacy from God described in Revelation as long as we are not in any of those Sunday keeping churches. There will be many Sabbath keepers that miss the last train out of the city described there.

[fccool]

I can say with sadness, that you can bet on it. I suspect there may be Adventist churches where the majority of people would miss that train, and there may be non-Adventist churches where the majority would not... and we should realize such possibility before we "calling people out". Some people are better where they are at, based on some Adventist churches in southern Ohio that I've visited ... some really weird stuff I've seen :)

[Gerr]

And a very important distinction. Thank you. Sometimes I tend forget that. While obedience per se does not save us, however, there are some basic things that I would have a hard time believing a person who once believed them would now turn their back on the same and still remains saved. For example: if one became convinced at heart that God's Sabbath was to be kept holy, (and the same could be said about the rest of the 10c) and now turns his back on it but still claims to maintain faith in God, do you think such a person remains saved? Technically, this probably falls under the heading of heresy rather than apostasy. IOW, apostasy in the Biblical sense is fatal, while heresy may or may not be.

[fccool]

Quote:

For example: if one became convinced at heart that God's Sabbath was to be kept holy, (and the same could be said about the rest of the 10c) and now turns his back on it but still claims to maintain faith in God, do you think such a person remains saved?

That's where lies the problem that ties our little problems in. We tend to guess on behalf of God who will and who will not be saved . And just like Jews who were too proud to even speak to those "unholy heathens", we think that God could not possibly forgive or save a person that rejects a certain point of truth due to ignorance. I'm not talking about the cases where person consciously knows what's right, and chooses not to do it. I don't believe such to be the case with most Sabbath defectors.

Certain people reject SDA teachings due to sheer hypocrisy of the local churches alone. We've had a guy who let one of the friendly families an insight into his homosexual past, trusting them for accountability... And when the guy went missing for a month, this family went on to spread rumors about the guy "going back to his homosexual way". The guy came back and was infuriated, because he had to go off on a monthly job assignment as it turned out to be. And as he was afraid of, the attitude of people changed. They treated him as "recovering homosexual" rather than a person. So, he left the church, thinking that it was just a big play. He did not leave God.. he merely left the church.

Do you believe that God will come down hard on the guy and "save" the people who continually promote things like that?

[Gerr]

You left this out in quoting me: Apostasy is fatal, but heresy may or may not be. It is not my business to judge whether someone is saved or not. However, how can you warn someone of danger if you don't know what is safe and what is dangerous?

[fccool]

I see what you are saying, and I appreciate your clarification.

On the note of knowing the danger... what if my understanding that cars, or any kind of transportation is dangerous... and thus should be avoided. Would you take that as a proper warning?