Step to Apostasy

[Bravus]

Luke 14:23 (King James Version)

And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Doesn't sound to me much like 'But make sure you give them a good thorough catechizing and an exam before you bring them in...'

[Woody]

I agree.

[antcreations]

Luke 14:23 (King James Version)

And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Doesn't sound to me much like 'But make sure you give them a good thorough catechizing and an exam before you bring them in...'

the words catechizing and exam pops out like neon lights from a small town traveling circus.

[phkrause]

Luke 14:23 (King James Version)

And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Doesn't sound to me much like 'But make sure you give them a good thorough catechizing and an exam before you bring them in...'

I tend to agree with your statement. But it depends. When I was living in NY and going to a Jewish/Adventist church, we moved it to manhattan so that we were centralized. They baptized many jews without any of the so-called catechizing! Within 2 years all those baptized had slowing left and never came back, after little by little they were informed what they got themselves into.

[Woody]

Now you should know better than that CoA. Ted would not appreciate that. You are suppose to SIT on them hands. Hands are the Devil's tools.

[Bravus]

To me, it's real simple. Is our energy put into compelling them to come in, or into defining them out?

[Gerr]

Base a doctrine on one text, Bravus? Not very scientific imho. :)

[Gerr]

I have no problem if one accepts Jesus as Lord, wants to be baptized but doesn't want to join the church, if someone is willing to perform the rite.

[Bravus]

Not really a doctrine, Gerry, but I think the thread so far shows that we can bandy texts around until He comes back without solving it.

I believe the whole story of the Gospel is the story of God (in all three Persons) avidly desiring that *all* should be saved.

It just seems to me that setting up more and more barriers, and dividing people into tightly defined groups, is the opposite spirit to that.

[John317]

Quote:

There has to be more than merely indicating having accepted Jesus as Savior.

Ah, now we know what the real issue is....hmmm, more than accepting Christ? What, pray tell?

Being a disciple of Christ. Just what Matt. 28: 19 said it is: "Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you."

Notice that it says "make disciples." This come before the baptism. Making disciples means to instruct. Those two present participles, "discipling" and "teaching," take place at the same time. But as the NT shows, disciples continue to learn throughout their lifetime.

[Bravus]

Just to clarify, I'm not actually arguing with any of that. Sound teaching and willing learning are crucial parts of the Christian life.

My post on the previous page was carefully written: it's a question of where we put our energy. On tightly drawn boundaries, or on being 'not willing that *any* should perish'?

[John317]

Perhaps in this day and age, he would head the list with the church adopting an "anything goes" position.

There's no chance that Elder Loughborough would do that. He was a strong supporter of the beliefs of the SDA church and spent almost his entire preaching preaching them.

[fccool]

Do we have Biblical examples that Baptism comes several weeks/months after repentance and understanding the basics? Whenever I read about baptism, it seems to be in the context of "that day" most of the time.

On top of that, I think we are confusing Baptism - the initiation rite into the invisible church (not the localized ecclesia), and instead making it out to be the "graduation" from the 1st grade of Christianity, and thus entering the "college". People who don't pass the test, don't get to graduate.

I simply don't see any Biblical evidence for such interpretation. We are not "baptized into adventist church". Every time I hear that, it makes me cringe . We are baptized into Christ's body... universal body of Believers.

I find it ridiculous that people get re-baptized over the issue of Sabbath. Sure, they were off on certain doctrinal positions, but there can be only one Baptism. If you were baptized in the name of Jesus' Christ because you believed... the Holy Spirit is there to clear up misunderstanding. That's what He's there for. If we are to be re-Baptized until we get every issue right... might as well begin filling those baptisteries.

The issue in Acts 18 is not the same issue as we make it out to be. It was a mode of faith. The faith was in the baptism of John, thus the faith was in the teachings of John.

Baptism is the outward expression of faith for the believer. Sure, if someone made a decision for you, then it's an example of you getting wet. But in most cases, I don't think this would be the case for a believer who is requesting to be Baptized.

What we've done, is to take the baptism into universal Body of Christ, and turned it into the baptism into Adventist Church. It's not warranted.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Perhaps in this day and age, he would head the list with the church adopting an "anything goes" position.

There's no chance that Elder Loughborough would do that. He was a strong supporter of the beliefs of the SDA church and spent almost his entire preaching preaching them.

I meant that he would make that step #1 of the steps to apostasy. Things are different now than they were back then.

[John317]

I meant that he would make that step #1 of the steps to apostasy. Things are different now than they were back then.

Yes, I do think you're right about that because it's definitely a far different world today. I'm glad he doesn't have to see the way things are and can sleep through it.

[Gerr]

Evangelist comes to town. Preaches for 6 weeks. Baptizes many people. After 1 year, maybe 1 still attending. People complain we baptize too soon.

Another evangelist holds meetings in another town for 6 wks. Many believe, but he thinks they should be more established and recommends that they attend a baptismal class for more thorough indoctrination and observation to see if they are really ready. People complain we don't baptize fast enough.

[Woody]

According to the Gospel Commission ... that is our task.

[fccool]

And then there's a case when preacher comes to town, and preaches for one day. Thousands are saved and Baptized... and God adds to their numbers daily. :)

[Overaged]

Evangelist comes to town. Preaches for 6 weeks. Baptizes many people. After 1 year, maybe 1 still attending. People complain we baptize too soon.

Another evangelist holds meetings in another town for 6 wks. Many believe, but he thinks they should be more established and recommends that they attend a baptismal class for more thorough indoctrination and observation to see if they are really ready. People complain we don't baptize fast enough.

So are you saying that this somehow leads to "apostasy?"

I would like someone to show me IN THE BIBLE where the list is for "the steps to apostasy." My thinking is that not too many of us even understand what apostasy is, or what causes it.

[Gerr]

And do you know who those thousands who were baptized?

[Woody]

They were the ones who knew nothing about the Investigative Judgment. And they still didn't ... even after baptism.

[Gerr]

What do you mean by "this?"

[fccool]

I don't know them personally:

Quote:

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

[Overaged]

And do you know who those thousands who were baptized?

They were Roman Catholics

[Overaged]

What do you mean by "this?"

I was referring to what I had in quotations of that post.