Common ground

[Woody]

Quote:

Excellent post!!!

Well I think the more we can learn about each other and each other's faith or belief ... the better.

[Paula]

Woody,

I agree. That's why I read the book Journey into the Supernatural, Beware of Angels, The Book of Mormon, and others.. it's why my dad read The Gospel According to Spiritism by Allan Kardec, etc... etc... I would have no problem with Pam telling of her experiences in Witchcraft here on the forum either, as she is not trying to convert anyone to it, but is pointing out the dangers in it, and what it is. I think however, that Pam's post was showing what a believer and practicing Wiccan/Witch would portray. That is different from how someone who has come out of it and is showing the pitfalls would portray it.. it's quite different wouldn't you agree?

[Woody]

I have no problem with Pam sharing her experiences here. I think it is valuable. I appreciate her posts.

[Paula]

I have no problem with Pam sharing her experiences here. I think it is valuable. I appreciate her posts.

agreed!

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

If Satan is a defeated foe, why are christians promoting the value of fear?

Excellent post Neil. If our faith is well grounded in the Lord and his word the Bible we have absolutely nothing to fear at all.

Satan is a defeated foe, but that doesn't mean he has no access or means to snare us, just because we've accepted Jesus as our Savior. A complacent attitude is exactly what he likes to see. If we think we have nothing to fear from him, that God has taken care of that, so we can do what we like and go where we like, we are in grave danger. The only safety in dealing with Satan and his human followers lies in a constant, vigilant communion with God. If we knowingly set foot on Satan's turf, unbidden by God, He has given us no promise that He will keep us.

If you are going to dialog directly with Wiccans and other followers of Satan in his many manifestations on spiritual matters, and you aren't in constant, fervent prayer for protection and guidance, then you should be afraid. You should be very afraid.

He is much more clever than any of us are. After all, he's had thousands of years to study and perfect his deceptive arts. Plus, he's had one of his minions on each of our cases since the day we were born, who has come to know us very, very well, and knows our history, our preferences, and exactly what our weak points are. How else could they imitate those who've died well enough to fool their relatives into thinking they're the spirits of their departed loved ones?

I haven't seen anyone promoting fear here, only caution in dealing with something none of us are equipped to safely handle in our own strength and mental capacity. No number of advanced degrees will protect you from the master of deception. High standing in the church is alike useless.

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1Co 10:12

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. 2Pe 3:17,18.

[phkrause]

I have no problem with Pam sharing her experiences here. I think it is valuable. I appreciate her posts.

I second that Woody.

[Woody]

Here's a question to consider:

Would Jesus associate with Wiccans? Would he fish with them? Would He try to establish common ground?

[Paula]

If you are going to dialog directly with Wiccans and other followers of Satan in his many manifestations on spiritual matters, and you aren't in constant, fervent prayer for protection and guidance, then you should be afraid. You should be very afraid.

He is much more clever than any of us are. After all, he's had thousands of years to study and perfect his deceptive arts. Plus, he's had one of his minions on each of our cases since the day we were born, who has come to know us very, very well, and knows our history, our preferences, and exactly what our weak points are. How else could they imitate those who've died well enough to fool their relatives into thinking they're the spirits of their departed loved ones?

I haven't seen anyone promoting fear here, only caution in dealing with something none of us are equipped to safely handle in our own strength and mental capacity. No number of advanced degrees will protect you from the master of deception. High standing in the church is alike useless.

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1Co 10:12

You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. 2Pe 3:17,18.

GLGramma,

You said all I wanted to say, but MUCH better than I could ever say it!!!

[Paula]

Here's a question to consider:

Would Jesus associate with Wiccans? Would he fish with them? Would He try to establish common ground?

Did Jesus try to establish spiritual common ground w/ any of the demon possessed people he encountered????

[Woody]

I think Jesus met each person where they were at and established common ground. He then invited them to follow Him. If they agreed ... He then did what He will do for each of us - CHANGE US.

[Paula]

I think Jesus met each person where they were at and established common ground. He then invited them to follow Him. If they agreed ... He then did what He will do for each of us - CHANGE US.

Please show me, using scripture, ONE instance in which Jesus FIRST established common ground with a demon possessed person, or where Jesus FIRST met a Demon possessed person "where they were"...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**shakes dust off of shoes and leaves**

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

In conversation with other faith groups, both Christian and none, it works best if we find common ground and show some respect for their faith journey..

Yet, many seemed opposed to this...

Is it the right thing or wrong?

What about Wiccas, Muslim, Hindus, aboriginals?

Thoughts?

I was previously informed that on this forum no wiccan/witchcraft beliefs or quotes would be tolerated. Is that not now the case? If not, then everybody grab your athames and hold out your arms. Prepare for your initiation into the realm of the occult and meet your new master. He's a very nice gentleman, very charismatic, warm and friendly...does many good things for people. Lots of followers. Would love new disciples. Would love to have a chance to tell you about himself. You will be able to do things you never thought possible. New powers to heal; new powers to control what happens in your life; new powers to control others, if you so choose. It's exhilarating! Come one, come all! Join up! Open the door, and learn of him; learn the truth of the occult. It is not dangerous; nay, it will take you on an unforgettable journey. Learn new words -- the hidden power of the spoken word and new body language. Dance to the tune of a different drummer. Come on. Try it. You'll like it.

Samhain is about to come upon us. This is the perfect time for you to become involved. Talk to the spirits. They can tell you what to do, who to talk to, what to say, and when, and how. You don't need a ouija board. A simple piece of hedgegreen will suffice. Do you like velvet? Buy some, and make yourself a nice, warm cape. Snuggle up with your new master. Like candles? They can be used for wonderfully eye-opening ceremonies too. Like rocks? Rose quartz is very fine for runes; get some, and try it! Just imagine the power you will receive! Ahhhh. So inviting!!! The energy will surge through your body, and you will feel on top of the world! No need for psychedelic drugs! Your new master doesn't need them, and neither will you.

You will become much healthier with your new master. Vegetarianism is encouraged, though sometimes blood will be drunk, but that's just a small inconvenience, really.

Begin to write your own Book of Shadows...this will enhance your experience in your quest to understand the occult. Your master will help you.

I can't tell you enough about how kind this master is. He will let you have your own goddess to pray to; she will be with you forever, to guide and help you. She's even talked about in the Bible. Oh, and you can keep reading your Bible. That's okay, because your new master knows it by heart, too. But he can add so much more to your understanding of it. Prepare for enlightenment.

You won't have to do evangelism anymore. Your new master doesn't need that type of thing to gain new followers. Join up with a coven of like-minded people...they are good people; they may have even more knowledge that you can use and relate to. It's all good. Relax and enjoy the ride...

To hell.

Very well put, Pam.

[Bravus]

I withdraw and repent of my post to bonnie.

[Stan]

This is not about how not to reach people or to make people witches. It is about finding common ground, not excuses on why we should not reach.

[BSW]

Quote:

In conversation with other faith groups, both Christian and none, it works best if we find common ground and show some respect for their faith journey..

This thought assumes we have any act in the interests of another. It is the Spirit that will open the door that we can choose to walk through.

The beauty of our faith is that it is totally scripturally sound. Every issue of life and death both temporal and eternal are easily found in the Holy Bible. Every issue.

I suppose my issue is - How many opportunities will I have with this individual to spread the truth as it is found in (Christ) Scripture. Not with a heavy hand but with a longing desire for the soul to submit to Christ before it is too late.

As we sit here on the edge of eternity to find "common ground", I wonder if we honestly have that burning desire for souls to understand clearly the gospel or is it more an intellectual exercise.

I once heard a sermon (by a non-Adventist btw) that went sorta like this:

There is this blind man walking toward a cliff without his walking stick, walking with confidence like he was able to see as well as anyone there, yet he isn't stopping. YOU are the only one that knows he is blind. What are you going to do? Just quietly sit by and let him walk over the cliff to his death or are you going to scream and run as fast as you possibly can to stop him before he steps off? Well? WELL?!

TIME IS OVER - WHAT ARE YOU DOING - THERE ARE SOULS PERISHING ALL AROUND YOU AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT - HELLO?!!!

It made me think that I really don't have time for intellectual excercises.

I am firmly grounded as a Seventh-Day Adventist. I really feel I can prove my faith through the power outside of myself (tenderly and gently) to hopefully turn a brother or sister from Babylon to the true church. Sola-Scriptura.

Does this make me "saved"? I don't care, really - My hope and faith is that they are!

I know Jesus died the eternal death that I might have eternal life - How can His do any differently?

[GreatLakesGramma]

Here's a question to consider:

Would Jesus associate with Wiccans? Would he fish with them? Would He try to establish common ground?

You can be friends with just about anybody, except people whose preferences and behavior are so vile that you can't feel comfortable or safe in their presence. But when it comes time to discuss spiritual matters, you'd better be doing some serious praying for wisdom and guidance. You may not be in serious danger of being led astray yourself, at least not in the early stages of discussion, but you can never reach them with truth by your own wisdom either.

[Paula]

This is not about how not to reach people or to make people witches. It is about finding common ground, not excuses on why we should not reach.

Hey Stan!

I think a distinction needs to be made here. Are you talking about friendship or evangelism? For example, my school friend who was a Wiccan, was someone I found common ground with in other areas of life (NEVER RELIGIOUS). My neighbor friend who was wicca, was someone with whom our common interest was our kids. We eventually became friends. As she had serious health issues, I would take her son to VBS since she couldn't really take him anywhere. Eventually she let me take him to church, and we even gave him a childrens bible which she read to him. When she was in her last few months of life, I offered to have the pastor go and pray with her at the hospital, she was receptive to it, but not the rest of her family and it was shot down. I think she did the best she could with what she knew, and I pray that she will be in heaven, for we will be judged according to our knowledge and our sincerity.. but again, she was not comfortable speaking of religious things with me (neither wicca nor christianity). Religion was not an area where we had a common ground. And we both knew it.

If we are talking about friendship and common ground in non-spiritual things, then yes.. we can and should be friends with ANYONE and EVERYONE!!

Now if you are talking about finding spiritual common ground with a witch, or a satanist, I don't think thats possible, nor is it advisable.

So please Stan, clarify what it is exactly that you mean when you say that we must find common ground.

[lazarus]

The following topics are ones in which Adventists and Muslims have common beliefs and can easily be discussed with Muslims:

1. Worship the one and true God

2. Believe in Prophets

3. Understand Abraham as one of the great prophets

4. Angels

5. Prayer

6. Day of Judgment

7. Second Advent

8. Healthy lifestyle

9. Family Values

10. Hunger for God

[olger]

Olger appreciates Pam's post, and notes that due to "intolerance" the legalistic Three Hebrew children missed out on an "interfaith" experience on the Plains of Dura.

[Stan]

So, let me get this straight, by developing non conrtronation relationships with people, means we will be come witches and worship Satan? OR become catholics? or baptists?

Some of the statements here are just unbelievable.

[Stan]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I think Jesus met each person where they were at and established common ground. He then invited them to follow Him. If they agreed ... He then did what He will do for each of us - CHANGE US.

Please show me, using scripture, ONE instance in which Jesus FIRST established common ground with a demon possessed person, or where Jesus FIRST met a Demon possessed person "where they were"...

So we should treat everyone as if they are devil possessed?

[Paula]

Quote:

Please show me, using scripture, ONE instance in which Jesus FIRST established common ground with a demon possessed person, or where Jesus FIRST met a Demon possessed person "where they were"...

Quote:

So we should treat everyone as if they are devil possessed?

Ok Stan... again.. are you endorsing that SDA's look for common SPIRITUAL ground with wiccans/witches and satanists??? It's a yes or no question.

[Neil D]

I am going to stick my neck out here....

I said that if Satan is a defeated foe, then we can go anywhere, do anything with Jesus. If Jesus is the Lord of our lives, we can do anything......anything.....

Some one asked if Jesus met with a wiccan and tried to establish common ground...I can answer that....The answer is Yes, Jesus met a wiccan in two instances, as I recall at this moment...

The first time was with a man in chains, naked and screaming at Jesus and his disciples...the demons inside the man wanted to stay in the man, but if they couldn't, they would be happy residing in pigs...and Jesus sent them into the pigs...and the man was restored....

The next time Jesus met with a wicca person, it was in a boy who went into convulsions. His father didn't believe that Jesus could heal the boy....and yet, Jesus did....despite the father's unbelief...

Ladys and gentlemen, If we are the Lord's people, we are children of the King of the Universe. If we are children of the King, we know how to be positive in our relationships, compassionate in our friendships, and loving in every situation involving people

If we can't, then I dare say, we can not be children of the King...we are laodician-ists.....

[Paula]

Some one asked if Jesus met with a wiccan and tried to establish common ground...I can answer that....The answer is Yes, Jesus met a wiccan in two instances, as I recall at this moment...

The first time was with a man in chains, naked and screaming at Jesus and his disciples...the demons inside the man wanted to stay in the man, but if they couldn't, they would be happy residing in pigs...and Jesus sent them into the pigs...and the man was restored....

The next time Jesus met with a wicca person, it was in a boy who went into convulsions. His father didn't believe that Jesus could heal the boy....and yet, Jesus did....despite the father's unbelief...

Neil, you've made my point for me... Jesus EXPELLED the demons FIRST!! He did NOT try to establish "common ground" with the (as you so aptly put it) Wiccan or devil possessed. To do what you and Woody (and I think Stan too) are suggesting, Jesus would have talked to these demon possessed souls, he would have asked them to pray over the rabbis at the temple, he would have asked them to join him and the disciples for a Wednesday evening meeting where the demon possessed could talk about their experiences or their "faith journey" among the catacombs of the island... and so on and so forth.

What those of us who are against this reasoning are saying is NO... first Jesus EXPELLED (ABSOLUTELY NO COMMON GROUND WHATSOEVER THERE!!) the demons, THEN he engaged the RESTORED person.

Now in the case of a Wiccan, I think one can engage the person and find some common ground, etc in NON SPIRITUAL areas, in an attempt to reach them... but spiritually there IS NO COMMON GROUND. To try to find a common ground in the spiritual arena is to try to serve 2 gods...