Common ground

[Neil D]

Neil, you've made my point for me... Jesus EXPELLED the demons FIRST!! He did NOT try to establish "common ground" with the (as you so aptly put it) Wiccan or devil possessed. To do what you and Woody (and I think Stan too) are suggesting, Jesus would have talked to these demon possessed souls, he would have asked them to pray over the rabbis at the temple, he would have asked them to join him and the disciples for a Wednesday evening meeting where the demon possessed could talk about their experiences or their "faith journey" among the catacombs of the island... and so on and so forth.

What those of us who are against this reasoning are saying is NO... first Jesus EXPELLED (ABSOLUTELY NO COMMON GROUND WHATSOEVER THERE!!) the demons, THEN he engaged the RESTORED person.

Now in the case of a Wiccan, I think one can engage the person and find some common ground, etc in NON SPIRITUAL areas, in an attempt to reach them... but spiritually there IS NO COMMON GROUND. To try to find a common ground in the spiritual arena is to try to serve 2 gods...

You poor woman.....

Dont you realize....In the page that I posted, there was no demon....Just a woman with children who only knew and did what was she thought was right with what she knew for a group of people who talked about thier failures in thier faith.....

They had nothing....She prayed to the Holy Spirit, and God created........

Why cant you people see ?

It's because of your lack of faith....satan truely IS a defeated foe....He only has power if you give it to him....

[Stan]

Quote:

Please show me, using scripture, ONE instance in which Jesus FIRST established common ground with a demon possessed person, or where Jesus FIRST met a Demon possessed person "where they were"...

Quote:

So we should treat everyone as if they are devil possessed?

Ok Stan... again.. are you endorsing that SDA's look for common SPIRITUAL ground with wiccans/witches and satanists??? It's a yes or no question.

Where did I say common SPIRITUAL ground?

The common ground could be that we both drive the same mini-van brand. Finding common ground opens up a communication connection that can lead to other things.

[John317]

....satan truely IS a defeated foe....He only has power if you give it to him....

And how do people give Satan power?

People do it by doing things that they know are wrong. Whether we know it or not, we are sending an invitation to Satan to control us when we practice sin and don't repent of it and seek God's grace to overcome it.

Satan is a defeated foe by Christ but people who are not IN Christ and in the whole armour of God are easily defeated by Satan. Without Christ we are absoutely no match for him, but with Christ we are more than a match.

A lot people who think they are doing God's will are often controlled by Satan. They are deceived and self-deceived. It is all too common. Millions will wake up on the wrong side of the 1000 years and be shocked to find themselves in a lost condition when they were sure they would be among the saved. Christ talks about them in Matt. 7: 23.

[olger]

Your point is extremely valid, Paula. We don't have to ask wwjd or what would the Bible say. Both have already spoken and said "There is no concord between Christ & Belial.". The Great Controversy itself is an entire volume on it.

There is an eternal difference between praying for and helping people in the occult get free from it (I have done this on MANY occasions) and- validating their rebellious choices by learning their ways. Huge difference. I helped a young woman in scandavia get free from her past involvement in the occult bt taking her to the only One who could set her free. I had a young boy working for me four years ago who had gotten in with the wrong crowd. Most of us have at some point, and as believer we must encourage these dear souls without EVER involving ourselves in their darkness. The stakes are higher than we realize and it is unsanctified pride to believe that there are no consequences to "learning the way of the heathen.". God cast away Israel for just that sin, according to Jeremiah and Isaiah.

There is a new breed of people who are following the old errors of wayward Israel and justifying it by claiming to be more enlightened. No surprise as Satan himself claims to be the father of enlightenment. Always missing from this formula is the brokenness of true repentance in the presence of the Almighty Creator.

May god have mercy on our church. May the blood of Jesus pardon, may His Spirit deliver us from our pride.

[Twilight]

Question:

Satan believes there is a God.

I believe there is a God.

We have "common ground"...

So maybe I should have a chat with him?

Maybe I should invite him to church next week?

Maybe I should invite him to speak at church next week?

Maybe I should remove all membership and let him be an Elder in the church next week?

Common thread here?

[GreatLakesGramma]

Where did I say common SPIRITUAL ground?

The common ground could be that we both drive the same mini-van brand. Finding common ground opens up a communication connection that can lead to other things.

You didn't, Stan. But you when you say things like that, you HAVE to take into consideration other current and past discussions, and expect people to say whatever they feel they need to, to avoid giving the impression that they might mean it's OK to take what you've suggested to further lengths than you intended.

[Stan]

nor did I even attempt to.

Wiccas attribute their growth to and I quote "lies Christian tell about us" for example, and I think Rudywoof could veritfy this .... most street level wiccas believe neither in a God nor a Devil.

AND my experience is this, after the first novelty wears off, they return to the same empty shell they were before, but continually have a carrot in front of them, believing the same peace they once had, is just a little bit away, they just have to turn more back to nature, think good thoughts, and, i my experience, rarely ever hit that again..

The only source of complete pease, is Christ, and they need to be shown that, not by Christian resending to have that to witness to them, but by non judgmental Christians experiencing that in their day to day life.

To be a Christian hate-monger doesn't cut it.

[Woody]

Excellent Stan.

A big Amen

[Paula]

Where did I say common SPIRITUAL ground?

The common ground could be that we both drive the same mini-van brand. Finding common ground opens up a communication connection that can lead to other things.

Ok.. well I've said this and given examples of where I've befriended and found common ground with 2 wiccans, and yet I've been accused several times on this thread of being afraid of people with different faiths... so either no on read my posts, or they were talking of spiritual common ground (that was the conclusion I came to).. but now that you've cleared it up for me, it seems like we are on the same page and saying the exact same thing.

It's good to find common ground on everyday things so we can befriend people. BUT we should NEVER compromise our faith by trying to find common SPIRITUAL ground with Wiccans/Witches/OCCULTISTS thats what EVERYONE has been saying on this thread all along and you guys have been criticizing us for it...

But anyways... happy to find out we agree....

[Twilight]

I agree with the point that a number of people are starting to make.

We have no spiritual common ground with wiccans.

But we may have non-spiritual common ground.

[Woody]

Quote:

BUT we should NEVER compromise our faith by trying to find common SPIRITUAL ground with Wiccans/Witches/OCCULTISTS thats what EVERYONE has been saying on this thread all along and you guys have been criticizing us for it...

I may be missing something. But by finding common SPIRITUAL ground .... I am NOT compromising my faith. I am affirming it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Wiccas attribute their growth to and I quote "lies Christian tell about us" for example, and I think Rudywoof could veritfy this .... most street level wiccas believe neither in a God nor a Devil.

Wiccans attribute their growth to offering a substitute for the Christian ideology of a violent, punishing, unloving God. I have never heard it espoused that the Wiccan path is growing due to "lies Christian tell about us"... that sounds hokey to me.. You are correct that Wiccans do not believe in a devil. But Wiccans worship goddesses (and sometimes, gods). If a Wiccan has no goddess, then that person is not a Wiccan or any other kind of witch. That said, there's a large group of people who call themselves "Wiccan" who have no idea what it entails; these are what referred to (in the true Wiccan community) as "fluffy bunny" Wiccans.

There is no common spiritual aspect between Wicca (as well as any other occultic group) and Christianity. They don't want a common spiritual aspect, they are not looking for it, and wouldn't be impressed if someone suggested that there was such a link. I agree that we can still be friends with witches. I am still friends with the High Priest of Wicca in Australia. A number of my friends on FB are Wiccan or witches of another path, but I also have a number of ex-witches on FB who are my friends.

By and large, Wiccans are a peaceful group of people who care deeply about Mother Earth. But there is an insidious violent thread interwoven in it. It is not written in books describing Wicca, nor will most Wiccans tell anyone about it. In fact, they will deny it. The "fluffy bunnies" are not even aware of it.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Stan

Wiccas attribute their growth to and I quote "lies Christian tell about us" for example, and I think Rudywoof could veritfy this .... most street level wiccas believe neither in a God nor a Devil.

Wiccans attribute their growth to offering a substitute for the Christian ideology of a violent, punishing, unloving God. I have never heard it espoused that the Wiccan path is growing due to "lies Christian tell about us"... that sounds hokey to me.. You are correct that Wiccans do not believe in a devil. But Wiccans worship goddesses (and sometimes, gods). If a Wiccan has no goddess, then that person is not a Wiccan or any other kind of witch. That said, there's a large group of people who call themselves "Wiccan" who have no idea what it entails; these are what referred to (in the true Wiccan community) as "fluffy bunny" Wiccans.

There is no common spiritual aspect between Wicca (as well as any other occultic group) and Christianity. They don't want a common spiritual aspect, they are not looking for it, and wouldn't be impressed if someone suggested that there was such a link. I agree that we can still be friends with witches. I am still friends with the High Priest of Wicca in Australia. A number of my friends on FB are Wiccan or witches of another path, but I also have a number of ex-witches on FB who are my friends.

By and large, Wiccans are a peaceful group of people who care deeply about Mother Earth. But there is an insidious violent thread interwoven in it. It is not written in books describing Wicca, nor will most Wiccans tell anyone about it. In fact, they will deny it. The "fluffy bunnies" are not even aware of it.

Let me guess, the deeper you go, the darker it gets?

Bit like Hansel and Grettel.

The sweets lead to a big house made of sweets, but inside their is someone waiting to consume you...

Problem is when Christians start to hand those sweets out and don't listen to those that are telling them not to accept sweets from strangers.

In fact, they start telling those that are trying to protect them, that they are "judgemental" and "arrogant".

Amazing what the promise of sweets can do to someones ability to think...

[Woody]

Thanks for this info Pam and also for your witness to these people. Being friends with them is important.

It also sounds like we have some common ground in that they have divisions in their group ... just as was as Christians and SDAs ... have divisions also.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Stan, I agree with you, that if we present an attitude of spiritual superiority, or even give them the remotest feeling that they are only a "witnessing project" to us, we might as well quit wasting our time. We will only turn them against Christianity even more.

[phkrause]

Good post GLG

[Woody]

Stan, I agree with you, that if we present an attitude of spiritual superiority, or even give them the remotest feeling that they are only a "witnessing project" to us, we might as well quit wasting our time. We will only turn them against Christianity even more.

Woody likes

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Stan, I agree with you, that if we present an attitude of spiritual superiority, or even give them the remotest feeling that they are only a "witnessing project" to us, we might as well quit wasting our time. We will only turn them against Christianity even more.

Woody likes

But that's not what Wiccans think at all!!!!! They aren't impressed by any sense that their or your spirituality is superior!!!! It is very much a "live and let live" mentality. THEY AREN'T *AGAINST* CHRISTIANITY FOR OTHER PEOPLE. They do, however, wish that people would know what they're talking about if they want to talk about Wicca!!!!!!!!

**not going to say any more on this topic -- said enough already**

[olger]

Pam, this question is for you. What is the "Samhain" festival all about?

Here is what I have found from a supportive website:

"Samhain was celebrated by the Celts from October 31 to November 2 as days of no time when chaos ruled. "People did crazy things, men dressed as women, and women as men. Farmers’ gates were unhinged and left in ditches, peoples’ horses were moved to different fields, and children would knock on neighbors’ doors for food and treats in a way that we still find today . . . in the custom of trick-or-treating on Halloween" (O.B.O.D.).

The Druids however celebrated Samhain differently. "Behind this apparent lunacy, lay a deeper meaning. The Druids knew that these three days" were the time when "the veil between this world and the World of the Ancestors was drawn aside ... and journeys could be made to the ‘other side’. The Druid rites, therefore, were concerned with making contact with the spirits of the departed, who were seen as sources of guidance and inspiration." The Ovates officiated at these rites, because they were skilled in divination and spiritual travel.

Ovate was the second step to becoming a Druid. Ovates "were responsible for understanding the mysteries of death and rebirth . . . for divinaning the future" and for "conversing with the ancestors" (O.B.O.D.). The Druids believed that time was cyclical and not linear. Therefore, the Ovate was also trained in spiritual time travel. They viewed the realm of the ancestors not as a realm of the dead, but as the repository of tribal wisdom where the ancestor awaited reincarnation. The O.B.O.D. quotes Ceasar from the de Bello Gallico, "The cardinal doctrine which they seek to teach is that souls do not die, but after death pass from one to another..." [Reincarnation] This view of death is a less fearful image then simply not existing anymore. And by observing natures cycles of birth, death, and rebirth the modern ovate can apply natural law towards the healing of the human body and psyche.

Samhain Today

Today Pagans see Samhain as a time to honor the dead, not as the dead, but as the living spirits of loved ones and as guardians who hold the wisdom of mankind. It is a celebration of the afterlife where we do not die but rest and continue to learn and prepare for our next incarnation."

[phkrause]

Wow olger, some interesting stuff.

[olger]

I know. For a believer to willfully involve themself in such things is tantamount to involving oneself in an orgy in order to witness to the immoral.

He that has an ear - let him hear.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Samhain (pronounced "soh'-when") is the one of the high sabbaths (if not the *highest*) for all witches. What you quoted above is fairly true in the Druidic sense. It is the time when the veil between the spirits of the dead and the living are the closest. It is a time when covens will gather together (the more people, the more power) to call forth the spirits of the dead...the goddess(es) will be invoked to help. It is a time when Magick will be at its peak power. A witch will be able to harness that power and use it for their purposes, good or bad. One must appease the goddess he/she serves, as well, through various ritualistic practices.

There *can* be a festival of sorts, with a "medieval" flair to it. The public may or may not be invited to participate (but they will not know that it is an affair of the occult).

Quote:

Samhain Today

Today Pagans see Samhain as a time to honor the dead, not as the dead, but as the living spirits of loved ones and as guardians who hold the wisdom of mankind. It is a celebration of the afterlife where we do not die but rest and continue to learn and prepare for our next incarnation."

While that is true about the spirit world, it sounds more like the Eastern mysticisms than it does of witchcraft. I've never known a witch that viewed or celebrated Samhain in that way. As I said above, the Druidic concept is what Samhain is all about, at least in my own experience and that of those with whom I've known.

I hope this helps answer your question about Samhain.

[olger]

It does. Thanks much.

Praise God that He delivered you from some of these things.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Stan, I agree with you, that if we present an attitude of spiritual superiority, or even give them the remotest feeling that they are only a "witnessing project" to us, we might as well quit wasting our time. We will only turn them against Christianity even more.

But that's not what Wiccans think at all!!!!! They aren't impressed by any sense that their or your spirituality is superior!!!! It is very much a "live and let live" mentality. THEY AREN'T *AGAINST* CHRISTIANITY FOR OTHER PEOPLE. They do, however, wish that people would know what they're talking about if they want to talk about Wicca!!!!!!!!

**not going to say any more on this topic -- said enough already**

Pam, I wasn't thinking of Wiccans at all. I know of many people who see Christians as people who think themselves better than everybody else, and want to force everyone to come around to their way of thinking, or at the very least, to control everybody's behavior according to their own way of thinking. I've seen this expressed on non-Christian sites, and it's especially strong on GLBT sites.

[jasd]

QR frame:

It almost approaches the nonsensical the way some constructs are erected to incorporate the oblique “fear”. They are usually hither, thither, and yon constructs embellished with the rosy-posy hodge of the ersatz podge – and diminish their disseminators.

Mk 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

The above text is red-highlighted in my KJV – guess that lends some gravitas to it, yes?

The text tells me in red letters- that the thief cannot enter into my house (in the Biblical sense) unless PC binds the strong man, and – that the vigilant and the strong are advised to smack the one who would enter my ‘house’ to despoil the inheritance of my progeny – upside his or their head(s). Real hard. With a might hand. HARD!

Common ground would be – respect the ground here – upon which you walk – and all that that entails. It is

my ground.

Do that – and we can get along...

It is our duty to ensure America – as we are able. Disabuse me should I err, but doesn’t Holy Writ tell us that Jesus Christ will marry the land?—State of Israel? Non, non, little darlin’—it is America!—that land of Biblical Promise:

2 Sam 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more;

(this was Nathan speaking to David – whilst the Kingdom yet cohered)

Oh, the other thing: “Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:” (Is 59:1)

Who saves?—whose hand? Not yours. Not mine. We work for the perishing – that we might be rewarded the measure of condign merit – else you’ll spend eternity on the wrong side of heaven – with me (should the good Lord grant me mercy fitting unto salvation). You will not like that.