Common ground

[jasd]

Speaking of things Druidic:

“In the druidical religion of liberalism, not separating your recyclables is a sin, but abortion is just a medical procedure.” --Ann Coulter

...ya just gotta love that woman!

[Bravus]

Pfft.

Odd that apparently the response to Stan's eminently sensible topic was to immediately jump to the most extreme examples and ignore all the rest...

[jasd]

All in good time - as the spirit leads, yes?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

....satan truely IS a defeated foe....He only has power if you give it to him....

And how do people give Satan power?

People do it by doing things that they know are wrong. Whether we know it or not, we are sending an invitation to Satan to control us when we practice sin and don't repent of it and seek God's grace to overcome it.

[Paula]

Pfft.

Odd that apparently the response to Stan's eminently sensible topic was to immediately jump to the most extreme examples and ignore all the rest...

Well actually Bravus, it was Stan himself who started the topic with the most extreme examples he could... reread his first post and you will see for yourself.

[Bravus]

My point was that everyone has fixated on Wicca and no-one has addressed Hindus, Muslims or aborigines. I don't regard those last three as being at all extreme in terms of figuring out what we share (beyond our basic humanity) and how we can build (appropriate, healthy) relationship bridges.

[Bravus]

(PS And the 'Pfft' was in response to jasd's approving posting of the words of Ann Coulter, and is the only possible sane response)

[Paula]

My point was that everyone has fixated on Wicca and no-one has addressed Hindus, Muslims or aborigines. I don't regard those last three as being at all extreme in terms of figuring out what we share (beyond our basic humanity) and how we can build (appropriate, healthy) relationship bridges.

Hey Bravus,

with regards to wiccans I've stated repeatedly that I had 2 very close friends who were of that belief system... in the removed thread (that started it all) I related that I have an uncle who is heavily involved in the occult (we still treat him with kindness, and have no problem with him, outside his belief system, though we certainly treat him no differently than anyone else)... I also related that my best childhood friend is Muslim. One of my best friends is mormon, and my best guy friend is gay. I don't really know any buddhists, hidus or aboriginis personally, but if I did, I'd probably be friends with them too. I also have atheist and agnostic friends.

As was stated before, the way the question was posed by Stan, coupled with several statements by him, neil and woody really made it seem like they were advocating that we find common spiritual ground with wiccans. While I can find some common spiritual ground with my muslim bf, as well as with my mormon friend... I do not believe it's ok to try to find common ground with someone who is in the occult. Thats why I, and probably everyone else here honed in on that in particular.

[John317]

Bravus, I used to be very interested in the Eastern religions, esecially Buddhism and Lao Tsu. I was so interested in the various religions that I took classes in them at public colleges and universities. I used to go to Buddhist gatherings in San Fracisco and pray and chant. I still have many of those books and read them occasionally, but I have a totally different reason for studying them now. I used to study them with the idea and hope that they would help me understand "truth" but I know now that the real truth is only in the Bible. The Buddhist and Hindu scriptures and other Eastern texts do contain some truths but they are all mixed up with error, too. Satan always mixes error with truth, because no one is going to follow all error.

I do talk to these people whenver possible, just as I do to people of all religions, including Islam, which is one of my main interests. My wife and I have very close friends who are Muslims from Afghanastan, and our families have been close for over 20 years. (They just recently came back from their visit to their homeland for the first time since the Russian occupation.) The man and his wife and kids had come from Afghanastan only a couple of years before we met them. I've invited her before to Sabbath School and she came to hear the Muslims from her Mosque talk to the SDAs there. They were both illegal aliens until a couple of years ago, and two of their boys still don't have green cards for work. (SDA doctors paid for the oldest to study at La Sierra and also to study at Loma Linda U as a physician's assistent, but he still can't work.)

I have 5 different translations of the Koran and have read it 3 times and have been invited to help a translator. The SDA who is translating the Koran is trying to show Muslims the relationship between the Koran and the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. He fills the translation's footnotes with references to the Old and New Testaments.

I also used to go to the Jehovah Witnesses Kingdom Hall and to their conferences. I've gotten to know many of them very well. In fact, a Jehovah Witness man and I studied the Bible together for almost two years, meeting twice a week for 3-4 hours each time. (During this time I mostly just asked questions, and it was almost a year before he asked me if I "had an organization.")

I lived with a Navaho family on the edge of Canyon de Chelly for about 6 months and did everything they did, including going to their dances and religous ceremonies. I have also done the same near where I live, which is on the outskirts of a large Indian reservation.

But those are things I did before I really gave my life totally over to Christ. The Jehovah Witness man helped me immensely to see that what I had been doing was terribly wrong and that God was able to help me get out of that life if I truly wanted to.

Would I go back to praying and chanting or dancing with the Indians? NO, of course not, because I know what they are all about.

Would I want to talk to those people, pray for them, and show them that I care about them? Of course. But it wouldn't be do as I did before-- to learn and practice their beliefs. I already know where they lead and what they're all about. If I wanted that and believed in it, I would have gone that way. But it is false and the SDAs message is the truth.

So today when I talk to them, it is for one purpose only-- to tell them about the true God and open the Scriptures to them. I don't go there or talk to them with the purpose of showing them that I like their chants or their dances or other practices and beliefs. But neither do I tell them immediately that what they are doing is of the devil. It's better if they draw this conclusion themselves as they study and read on their own.

[Bravus]

Well, I can't speak for my friend Stan, but my best guess is that what you describe (which is fantastic, speaking for myself) is exactly the kind of thing he was talking about.

How much more effective would our witness be if more of our members were as knowledgable and as committed to long-term friendships as you?

[phkrause]

Quote:

Well, I can't speak for my friend Stan, but my best guess is that what you describe (which is fantastic, speaking for myself) is exactly the kind of thing he was talking about.

How much more effective would our witness be if more of our members were as knowledgable and as committed to long-term friendships as you?

I have to agree with Bravus, this is a great testimony John.

[lazarus]

Pfft.

Odd that apparently the response to Stan's eminently sensible topic was to immediately jump to the most extreme examples and ignore all the rest...

Clearly, its so that we don't have to discuss the issue which may lead some to consider or even accept an alternative way of relating to folks who are different!

[Stan]

Well, I can't speak for my friend Stan, but my best guess is that what you describe (which is fantastic, speaking for myself) is exactly the kind of thing he was talking about.

How much more effective would our witness be if more of our members were as knowledgable and as committed to long-term friendships as you?

exactly, thanks to both of you

[Tom Wetmore]

And Pam suggested a couple things upon which we might find common ground with Wiccans. They are peace loving people. They value and protect the environment. Let's engage them on what that. It's a start. Just being friends is a start. Being fellow humans on planet earth should be a point we have in common on which to start a relationship. That is the point of common ground.

[lazarus]

Stan, I think for some, "to show respect for someone's faith journey" is in itself compromise. An alarming number of our people believe that but I have hope that our youth will help us to grow in this area.

In the community in which I serve there are over 70 Adventist churches in less than 1 hour driving distance. The different races/cultures in the remnant church can't even find common enough ground to worship Jesus together.

[Stan]

I have taken the position, not that popular, that we should have as many types of Churches in a town as we have types of radio stations. Think about that for a couple of minutes.

[lazarus]

I can work with that Stan if it's intentionally so because it's about mission. If the motivation is to reach this or that section of the community than that's fantastic but there are often many other reasons why churches are born.

[Tom Wetmore]

And since I am also in that same area, it is quite common to drive past more than one Adventist Church on the way to church on Sabbath. And most doing so have never entered the churches they pass by, not even for a wedding or funeral...

[lazarus]

Tom, a bunch of our young adults are pumped by this idea. Check it out. We might surprise you one day. Watch out!

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/BlackHistory/story?id=4165468&page=1

[BobRyan]

In conversation with other faith groups, both Christian and none, it works best if we find common ground and show some respect for their faith journey..

Yet, many seemed opposed to this...

Is it the right thing or wrong?

What about Wiccas, Muslim, Hindus, aboriginals?

Thoughts?

Every conversation has to start with some common ground, and agreement on basic terms. That is true when speaking to non-SDA Christians and when speaking to non-Christians as you list above.

However - that does not mean that we have to affirm some point of error that they believe "as if" it were true.

In John 4 Christ meets the Samaritan woman on an issue where they can speak on common ground. Fetching water for a hungry traveler. And yet he soon gets rather pointed by saying "you worship what you do not know, we worship what we know. Salvation is of the Jews". John 4:22.

I think we all agree that John 4 is not a case of an endless round of "your feelings are equally valid as my feelings" -- that closes with "have a nice day" nor even "I wish you a happy Jacob's-Well day".

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Every conversation has to start with some common ground, and agreement on basic terms. That is true when speaking to non-SDA Christians and when speaking to non-Christians as you list above.

However - that does not mean that we have to affirm some point of error that they believe "as if" it were true.

In John 4 Christ meets the Samaritan woman on an issue where they can speak on common ground. Fetching water for a hungry traveler. And yet he soon gets rather pointed by saying "you worship what you do not know, we worship what we know. Salvation is of the Jews". John 4:22.

I think we all agree that John 4 is not a case of an endless round of "your feelings are equally valid as my feelings" -- that closes with "have a nice day" nor even "I wish you a happy Jacob's-Well day".

in Christ,

Bob

Excellent points Bob

[Bravus]

I agree, Bob, and your post reminded me of this:

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

[Woody]

Quote:

However - that does not mean that we have to affirm some point of error that they believe "as if" it were true.

Exactly and I don't think anyone here has suggested doing that. Praise God.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

In conversation with other faith groups, both Christian and none, it works best if we find common ground and show some respect for their faith journey..

Yet, many seemed opposed to this...

Is it the right thing or wrong?

What about Wiccas, Muslim, Hindus, aboriginals?

Thoughts?

Every conversation has to start with some common ground, and agreement on basic terms. That is true when speaking to non-SDA Christians and when speaking to non-Christians as you list above.

However - that does not mean that we have to affirm some point of error that they believe "as if" it were true.

In John 4 Christ meets the Samaritan woman on an issue where they can speak on common ground. Fetching water for a hungry traveler. And yet he soon gets rather pointed by saying "you worship what you do not know, we worship what we know. Salvation is of the Jews". John 4:22.

I think we all agree that John 4 is not a case of an endless round of "your feelings are equally valid as my feelings" -- that closes with "have a nice day" nor even "I wish you a happy Jacob's-Well day".

in Christ,

Bob

This thought came to my mind as well Bob.

Jesus was very direct on truth and error.

Which gives us a clear example that there is nothing wrong with saying, "you have it wrong", as long as it is Spirit led.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Quote:

However - that does not mean that we have to affirm some point of error that they believe "as if" it were true.

Exactly and I don't think anyone here has suggested doing that. Praise God.

Except that I believe this is exactly the reason why people have been saying what they have about not finding spiritual common ground with non-christian persons, because there have been things said in other threads on this forum that give the impression that someone or other here may think we should do that. So people feel they need to qualify their agreement with Stan's suggestion.