Common ground

[Woody]

If they were 'thinking' they would believe scripture. :)

[Woody]

ok.... let's get back on track....

YOu have a co-worker, and dedicated, thinking atheist. ( not someone who says they are an atheist, just because they are lazy and have not really thought deep about anything)

You say

We have a lot in common, mainly _________________________

What goes in that blank?

He thinks that he is a 'thinking' person and you think you are a 'thinking' person. And you are both red blooded Americans.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Your Sabbath work should be given to the public, if not in all that perfection you could desire. Souls need the work now. Plain, pointed arguments standing out as mileposts will do more in convincing minds generally, than a large array of arguments covering a good deal of ground that none but investigating minds will have the interest to follow. After one edition is circulating and the people have the benefits, then if greater improvements are to be made you can do it, until you are satisfied you have done all in your power. Our success will be in reaching common minds" 13 MR 345.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Common ground:

sports

vegetarianism/nutrition

family values

health/disease

children

aging parents

occupations

environmental interests

hobbies

schooling & education

pets/animals

exercise & fitness

motorcycles/cars

non-smoking

camping/hiking/rock climbing/mountain climbing/wilderness survival

friends in common

TV programs

patriotism

neighborhood safety

meet/greet neighbors

As we interact with other people, if we let Him, Jesus will shine through us.. we may be planting the seeds, but not see the harvest until we get to heaven..

[Stan]

Right on the money Rudy. thanks!

[phkrause]

Excellent Rudywoofs. :)

[jasd]

>>(PS And the 'Pfft' was in response to jasd's approving posting of the words of Ann Coulter, and is the only possible sane response)<<

A dis of America Iconic!? Bite your tongue!

>>Odd that apparently the response to Stan's eminently sensible topic was to immediately jump to the most extreme examples and ignore all the rest...<< [ed.jasd]

Called: Looking for Mr Reality...

Sometimes, things factual smack a man upside his good intentions.

[Bravus]

Part 1:

Part 2: Extreme cases make bad law

[jasd]

Extreme cases, as all cases, are best resolved under existing law. ('exceptions to the rule' noted).

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

This is not about how not to reach people or to make people witches. It is about finding common ground, not excuses on why we should not reach.

Hey Stan!

I think a distinction needs to be made here. Are you talking about friendship or evangelism? For example, my school friend who was a Wiccan, was someone I found common ground with in other areas of life (NEVER RELIGIOUS). My neighbor friend who was wicca, was someone with whom our common interest was our kids. We eventually became friends. As she had serious health issues, I would take her son to VBS since she couldn't really take him anywhere. Eventually she let me take him to church, and we even gave him a childrens bible which she read to him. When she was in her last few months of life, I offered to have the pastor go and pray with her at the hospital, she was receptive to it, but not the rest of her family and it was shot down. I think she did the best she could with what she knew, and I pray that she will be in heaven, for we will be judged according to our knowledge and our sincerity.. but again, she was not comfortable speaking of religious things with me (neither wicca nor christianity). Religion was not an area where we had a common ground. And we both knew it.

If we are talking about friendship and common ground in non-spiritual things, then yes.. we can and should be friends with ANYONE and EVERYONE!!

Now if you are talking about finding spiritual common ground with a witch, or a satanist, I don't think thats possible, nor is it advisable.

So please Stan, clarify what it is exactly that you mean when you say that we must find common ground.

Excellent question Paula.

Where is the line or what is the difference between looking for "common ground" and ecumenial pursuit?

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I think Jesus met each person where they were at and established common ground. He then invited them to follow Him. If they agreed ... He then did what He will do for each of us - CHANGE US.

Please show me, using scripture, ONE instance in which Jesus FIRST established common ground with a demon possessed person, or where Jesus FIRST met a Demon possessed person "where they were"...

Good point Paula. There are no passages of Scriptures which show that He did any such thing.

What fellowship (common ground) can there be between light and darkness?

sky

[skyblue888]

The following topics are ones in which Adventists and Muslims have common beliefs and can easily be discussed with Muslims:

1. Worship the one and true God

2. Believe in Prophets

3. Understand Abraham as one of the great prophets

4. Angels

5. Prayer

6. Day of Judgment

7. Second Advent

8. Healthy lifestyle

9. Family Values

10. Hunger for God

If they were worshipping the one and true God they would be worshipping Jesus Christ for He is the one and true God. But they are not. So whose god are they worshipping then?

sky

[skyblue888]

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Some one asked if Jesus met with a wiccan and tried to establish common ground...I can answer that....The answer is Yes, Jesus met a wiccan in two instances, as I recall at this moment...

The first time was with a man in chains, naked and screaming at Jesus and his disciples...the demons inside the man wanted to stay in the man, but if they couldn't, they would be happy residing in pigs...and Jesus sent them into the pigs...and the man was restored....

The next time Jesus met with a wicca person, it was in a boy who went into convulsions. His father didn't believe that Jesus could heal the boy....and yet, Jesus did....despite the father's unbelief...

Neil, you've made my point for me... Jesus EXPELLED the demons FIRST!! He did NOT try to establish "common ground" with the (as you so aptly put it) Wiccan or devil possessed. To do what you and Woody (and I think Stan too) are suggesting, Jesus would have talked to these demon possessed souls, he would have asked them to pray over the rabbis at the temple, he would have asked them to join him and the disciples for a Wednesday evening meeting where the demon possessed could talk about their experiences or their "faith journey" among the catacombs of the island... and so on and so forth.

What those of us who are against this reasoning are saying is NO... first Jesus EXPELLED (ABSOLUTELY NO COMMON GROUND WHATSOEVER THERE!!) the demons, THEN he engaged the RESTORED person.

Now in the case of a Wiccan, I think one can engage the person and find some common ground, etc in NON SPIRITUAL areas, in an attempt to reach them... but spiritually there IS NO COMMON GROUND. To try to find a common ground in the spiritual arena is to try to serve 2 gods...

Amen to that.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Paula

Neil, you've made my point for me... Jesus EXPELLED the demons FIRST!! He did NOT try to establish "common ground" with the (as you so aptly put it) Wiccan or devil possessed. To do what you and Woody (and I think Stan too) are suggesting, Jesus would have talked to these demon possessed souls, he would have asked them to pray over the rabbis at the temple, he would have asked them to join him and the disciples for a Wednesday evening meeting where the demon possessed could talk about their experiences or their "faith journey" among the catacombs of the island... and so on and so forth.

What those of us who are against this reasoning are saying is NO... first Jesus EXPELLED (ABSOLUTELY NO COMMON GROUND WHATSOEVER THERE!!) the demons, THEN he engaged the RESTORED person.

Now in the case of a Wiccan, I think one can engage the person and find some common ground, etc in NON SPIRITUAL areas, in an attempt to reach them... but spiritually there IS NO COMMON GROUND. To try to find a common ground in the spiritual arena is to try to serve 2 gods...

You poor woman.....

Dont you realize....In the page that I posted, there was no demon....Just a woman with children who only knew and did what was she thought was right with what she knew for a group of people who talked about thier failures in thier faith.....

They had nothing....She prayed to the Holy Spirit, and God created........

Why cant you people see ?

It's because of your lack of faith....satan truely IS a defeated foe....He only has power if you give it to him....

"God is displeased with us when we go to listen to error, without being obliged to go, for unless He sends us to those meetings where error is forced home to the people by the power of the will, He will not keep us. The angels cease their watchful care over us, and we are left to the buffetings of the enemy, to be darkened and weakened by him and the power of his evil angels, and the light around us becomes contaminated with the darkness." Early Writings, p.125.

So it is not true that we can at any time go anywhere we please and listen to whatever is being said and taught even with the excuse to find common ground just because Satan is a defeated foe. Christ defeated him and yet it is written that the whole world is under his power!

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Stan

Wiccas attribute their growth to and I quote "lies Christian tell about us" for example, and I think Rudywoof could veritfy this .... most street level wiccas believe neither in a God nor a Devil.

Wiccans attribute their growth to offering a substitute for the Christian ideology of a violent, punishing, unloving God. I have never heard it espoused that the Wiccan path is growing due to "lies Christian tell about us"... that sounds hokey to me.. You are correct that Wiccans do not believe in a devil. But Wiccans worship goddesses (and sometimes, gods). If a Wiccan has no goddess, then that person is not a Wiccan or any other kind of witch. That said, there's a large group of people who call themselves "Wiccan" who have no idea what it entails; these are what referred to (in the true Wiccan community) as "fluffy bunny" Wiccans.

There is no common spiritual aspect between Wicca (as well as any other occultic group) and Christianity. They don't want a common spiritual aspect, they are not looking for it, and wouldn't be impressed if someone suggested that there was such a link. I agree that we can still be friends with witches. I am still friends with the High Priest of Wicca in Australia. A number of my friends on FB are Wiccan or witches of another path, but I also have a number of ex-witches on FB who are my friends.

By and large, Wiccans are a peaceful group of people who care deeply about Mother Earth. But there is an insidious violent thread interwoven in it. It is not written in books describing Wicca, nor will most Wiccans tell anyone about it. In fact, they will deny it. The "fluffy bunnies" are not even aware of it.

There is a difference between "friends" and "acquaintances"

Aren't we to choose who are friends are?

sky

[skyblue888]

Thanks for this info Pam and also for your witness to these people. Being friends with them is important.

It also sounds like we have some common ground in that they have divisions in their group ... just as was as Christians and SDAs ... have divisions also.

"Ten members, who were walking in all humbleness of mind, would have a far greater power upon the world than has the entire church, with its present numbers and lack of unity." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.119.

sky

[skyblue888]

[skyblue888]

"And any man, be he minister or layman, who seeks to compel or control the reason of any other man, becomes an agent of Satan to do his work, and in the sight of the heavenly universe, he bears the mark of Cain." E.G. White, 3 SG 60.

sky

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Wiccans attribute their growth to offering a substitute for the Christian ideology of a violent, punishing, unloving God. I have never heard it espoused that the Wiccan path is growing due to "lies Christian tell about us"... that sounds hokey to me.. You are correct that Wiccans do not believe in a devil. But Wiccans worship goddesses (and sometimes, gods). If a Wiccan has no goddess, then that person is not a Wiccan or any other kind of witch. That said, there's a large group of people who call themselves "Wiccan" who have no idea what it entails; these are what referred to (in the true Wiccan community) as "fluffy bunny" Wiccans.

There is no common spiritual aspect between Wicca (as well as any other occultic group) and Christianity. They don't want a common spiritual aspect, they are not looking for it, and wouldn't be impressed if someone suggested that there was such a link. I agree that we can still be friends with witches. I am still friends with the High Priest of Wicca in Australia. A number of my friends on FB are Wiccan or witches of another path, but I also have a number of ex-witches on FB who are my friends.

By and large, Wiccans are a peaceful group of people who care deeply about Mother Earth. But there is an insidious violent thread interwoven in it. It is not written in books describing Wicca, nor will most Wiccans tell anyone about it. In fact, they will deny it. The "fluffy bunnies" are not even aware of it.

There is a difference between "friends" and "acquaintances"

Aren't we to choose who are friends are?

sky

You're reminding me something of what my brother, who is an SDA minister, told me. We were talking about friends who had left the church, some very *prominent* NAD ministers, and who we should be *friends* with. My brother said he would still be friends with these people because it was important to show them that we don't reject them as human beings. We don't need to agree with everything they do. But keep the lines of communication open. If everyone started turning up their noses at people who had left the church, nobody would want to come back.

*I* wouldn't have wanted to come back.

[phkrause]

You're reminding me something of what my brother, who is an SDA minister, told me. We were talking about friends who had left the church, some very *prominent* NAD ministers, and who we should be *friends* with. My brother said he would still be friends with these people because it was important to show them that we don't reject them as human beings. We don't need to agree with everything they do. But keep the lines of communication open. If everyone started turning up their noses at people who had left the church, nobody would want to come back.

*I* wouldn't have wanted to come back.

Very good point rudywoofs.

[skyblue888]

What do you think the Spirit of the Lord meant when He inspired Ellen to write these words:

"The freindship of the ungodly is more dangerous than their enmity." E.G. White, 2 B.C.1001.

Isn't there is a difference between being "friendly" to someone and being someone's friend? Being friends means much more than being friendly. A Christian will be friendly and loving to all but that is not the same as being someone's friends.

sky

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What do you think the Spirit of the Lord meant when He inspired Ellen to write these words:

"The freindship of the ungodly is more dangerous than their enmity." E.G. White, 2 B.C.1001.

Isn't there is a difference between being "friendly" to someone and being someone's friend? Being friends means much more than being friendly. A Christian will be friendly and loving to all but that is not the same as being someone's friends.

sky

My *take* on your EGW quote is that, in context, she was writing about Parents and Children...

I would like to think that my friends - all my friends - would be able to come to me and know they, as a person, would not be rejected..

I do not wish to get into a semantical discussion about the meaning of "friends," "friendly," "friendship," "befriend," "bosum buddy," "life-long pal," "knowing" or "laying down" with someone in the biblical sense, or any other of grandma's good beans.

[skyblue888]

The principle is the same for all relationships, either socially or spiritually.

And it has nothing to do with semantics.

sky

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The principle is the same for all relationships, either socially or spiritually.

And it has nothing to do with semantics.

sky

When you ask what I think someone "means" when they write something, that is, INDEED, semantics, O Thou Who Thinketh He Knoweth All Things. (j/k) :smile: