Gordon1 Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Not very long ago, there was a young Christian reading the Bible under the street light in a town close to where I live. Gang members came by and shot him to death. Was that God's will? John, that's a good question. As mortals, we put too great an emphasis on the present life. Very few are willing to give it up, as Jesus did - submitting to the will of His Father. But amongst all the many professed or nominal Christians, there are some who would even value the Bible enough to be searching it under a streetlight, while most others are watching TV or eating to excess. So it's possible that God removed that young Christian from all the suffering to come. Perhaps she/he was sealed, and gave their testimony unto the gang members - a seed yet to bear fruit. Life is precious, but we emphasize the present life over the eternal life because we lack faith. Every failure on the part of the children of God is due to their lack of faith. Quote
bonnie Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 But amongst all the many professed or nominal Christians' date=' there are some who would even value the Bible enough to be searching it under a streetlight, while most others are watching TV or eating to excess. So it's possible that God removed that young Christian from all the suffering to come. Perhaps she/he was sealed, and gave their testimony unto the gang members - a seed yet to bear fruit. Life is precious, but we emphasize the present life over the eternal life because we lack faith. Every failure on the part of the children of God is due to their lack of faith. [/quote'] Tell me,had you been there and had the ability to stop the senseless murder of this young man would you have done so. Maybe you would have been interfering in God's will that this young man should die. To spare his life it may have required physical force on your part and you would have said.......... as they shot the young man in the head Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Sonny Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Matt 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person....43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven Quote
Sonny Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Like I said, Bonnie, it is delusional to think that you are in control. Just because you have a gun doesn't guarantee you life. Personally I think folks that carry guns (other than police and the military) are a bit paranoid. Until it's your time to go no one can touch you. John 7:30 "Then the leaders tried to arrest him; but no one laid a hand on him, because his time had not yet come." Luke 22:53 When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness." Quote
Moderators lazarus Posted January 24, 2011 Moderators Posted January 24, 2011 Quote: A study of gun-related deaths among kids found an equal rate of death between urban and rural youth. The analysis, published in the journal Pediatrics, found that gun murders were higher among urban youth but that a higher rate of accidental gun deaths in rural areas made up for the difference. The rate — based on data of nearly 24,000 gun-related fatalities among children 19 and younger from 1998 through 2006 — is 4 deaths per 100,000 children, the Associated Press reports. Experts are calling the findings significant because firearms have long been considered mostly an urban problem. - Posted in Firearms, News & Notes[/quote'] Tom, I'm not sure why you keep coming to this forum and give these facts that demolish our prejudices. Why do you have this weird preoccupation? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
bonnie Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Like I said, Bonnie, it is delusional to think that you are in control. Just because you have a gun doesn't guarantee you life. Personally I think folks that carry guns (other than police and the military) are a bit paranoid. Until it's your time to go no one can touch you. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 24, 2011 Administrators Posted January 24, 2011 ...Tom, I'm not sure why you keep coming to this forum and give these facts that demolish our prejudices. Why do have this weird preoccupation? Don Quixote rides again!!! Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Sonny Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 If no one can touch me until it is my time to go why do we need police and military? Quote
bonnie Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie If no one can touch me until it is my time to go why do we need police and military? Stability. Quote: One night shooting a double barrel shotgun in the air from the porch seemed to have the desired effect.We never had a problem again. If the person really wanted your goods he could have capped you with a high-power rifle at a distance where you couldn't see him with your naked eye. Again, you have false sense of security. He didn't want my goods.He stalked all the homes where the men worked nights. You may believe you are helpless and powerless but I don't. Most stalkers are not armed with a high powered rifle. I don't believe as you that God decided my sisters should die on the 29th of May and there was no way to avoid it. If you believe you have a chosen day to die and cannot die before that go play in the middle of the freeway in rush hour traffic.If it isn't you time nothing will happen. Do not ever allow yourself or your family to go near a DR and try to interfere with the day God says you will die. But for certain do not ever call the police if you need protection.That would be interfering with God's chosen day to day Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
bonnie Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 I just had cataract surgery.Common operation.I happened to have a very uncommon type that once reached a certain stage grew like wildfire.I lost sight in one eye over night. By your reasoning it seems I should have been willing to go blind rather than interfere with God's plan. Again you have failed to answer my questions to you. If your wife or daughter were being assaulted and rape the obvious intent would you simply stand there? Would you have stood there and shrugged your shoulders at the shooting of the young man reading his bible?Would you have stopped it if it was within your ability to do so Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Guest Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 If the person really wanted your goods he could have capped you with a high-power rifle at a distance where you couldn't see him with your naked eye. Again, you have false sense of security. Generally speaking, the kind of people that normally rob houses are not snipers, and don't carry around high powered rifles. LOL You're really stretching your imagination on that one. Like trying to make a point where there is none. Quote
Sonny Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Generally speaking, the kind of people that normally rob houses are not snipers, and don't carry around high powered rifles. LOL Look, if someone really wants your goods they aren't going to have a shootout with you. They'll cap you at a distance.... Again, you gun toting folks really have a false sense of security. Maybe too much TV? Quote
Sonny Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I don't believe as you that God decided my sisters should die on the 29th of May and there was no way to avoid it. God could have stopped it, but didn't. You'll know why when you get to heaven. Quote
Sonny Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 By your reasoning it seems I should have been willing to go blind rather than interfere with God's plan. Quote
Sonny Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Check out Paul's view of death: 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.... Paul had the attitude that if I die, so be it. He wasn't afraid to die. He didn't love his earthly, sinful life. He constantly lived for his enemies, the Jews. Quote
bonnie Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Would you stand by and laet your have or daughter be assaukted and raped if you could prevent it?Not a difficult question If in preventing you were to harm or kill the assailant would you be interfering in God's plan for your wife oor daughter that day? God could have prevented it,but if he didn't would you? Given an opportunity to stop the murder of the younh man reading his bible would you? Or in doing so would you be preventing God's plan for him that day Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Sonny Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 It is not God's plan for death. We live under the kingdoms of this world that's under Lucifer the lord of this world. Death is a result of Lucifer's kingdom. God doesn't always interfere....In fact many times He doesn't. Many Christians know this, yet they chose to bring children in this world. I think I would do things differently now....I think it's a terrible world to bring kids into. There are no guarantees. We need not be concerned about the 1st death...it's the 2nd death we want to avoid. When trouble comes...when our world almost universally rejects God...let's see how good your guns will do you then! Will you try to save your life, or will you love not your life unto death? Quote
bonnie Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 It is not God's plan for death. We live under the kingdoms of this world that's under Lucifer the lord of this world. Death is a result of Lucifer's kingdom. God doesn't always interfere....In fact many times He doesn't. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
LifeHiscost Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Tell me,had you been there and had the ability to stop the senseless murder of this young man would you have done so. Maybe you would have been interfering in God's will that this young man should die. To spare his life it may have required physical force on your part and you would have said.......... as they shot the young man in the head Peter did just as has been suggested. Jesus response was under similar circumstances. "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"John 18:10 KJV And in case it is thought that Jesus' advice was somehow different because He knew He was called to suffer, may I suggest another ordinary individual who accepted the same attitude under the pressure of someone else's malfeasance. "Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. Now therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” And he comforted them and spoke kindly to them." Genesis 50:19-21 NKJV Our world continues on its' rapid descent into destructive mayhem as a direct result of believing that evil must be met with evil since God doesn't wish to interfere in man's willingness to take a life for a life. I would, probably in a heartbeat, protect the life of my wife if she were in any way threatened by a malefactor. That does not mean it would be right to do so. And I believe the fact that I would do so, is the reason Jesus has removed me from the temptation, as I am persuaded to ask Him to fulfill His instructions to me. "And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power..." Matthew 6:12 NKJV "“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also." Matthew 5:38-40 NKJV God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
bonnie Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Peter did just as has been suggested. Jesus response was under similar circumstances. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it.18:10 KJV Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Gordon1 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 For some the nightshift can be a blessing. Quote
bonnie Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 For some the nightshift can be a blessing. Sorry,makes no sense Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
fccool Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 It is not God's plan for death. We live under the kingdoms of this world that's under Lucifer the lord of this world. Death is a result of Lucifer's kingdom. God doesn't always interfere....In fact many times He doesn't. Many Christians know this, yet they chose to bring children in this world. I think I would do things differently now....I think it's a terrible world to bring kids into. There are no guarantees. We need not be concerned about the 1st death...it's the 2nd death we want to avoid. When trouble comes...when our world almost universally rejects God...let's see how good your guns will do you then! Will you try to save your life, or will you love not your life unto death? I certainly think that this gloom&doom approach does no good for the world. The world is beautiful. I don't see mostly "evil". I see mostly good. I've been through some rough times, and I still see mostly good in those rough times. Life is worth living and life is worth defending, and certainly worth bringing children into. What happened in Arizona does not happen often. It's very rare, and that's why it's shocking. People generally respect each other enough not to go on shooting rampages. Quote
MultiSlacking Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I'm going to assume that the OP was intended to spark a lively debate, and indeed it has. If not... Several other developed countries do indeed have national gun groups. Switzerland is often used as the prime example of a heavily armed citizenry with a gun-related crime rate that is so low that they don't even bother keeping statistics on it. On some of the other posts, we have to remember that we're considering man's laws and God's laws. Two different things, but indeed man's law should be based on God's and we would all be better served. But for a minute, let's consider Judges 15:14-15 "14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines came shouting against him. Then the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him; and the ropes that were on his arms became like flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds broke loose from his hands. 15 He found a fresh jawbone of a donkey, reached out his hand and took it, and killed a thousand men with it." Would you suppose for one minute that the Philistine authorities then called for a ban on "assault/semi-automatic/automatic/evil black/etc" jawbones? Or perhaps "high capacity" jawbones--because Samson truly had to have been using one of those--just look at the numbers--he killed a thousand men with it. For those who would argue that defending one's self or others is interfering with God's will--who's to say that it's NOT God's will that at that point in time we were suppose to defend ourselves or come to the aid of others? God gave man free will. To consider the outcome of all events ever to be God's will is predestination (or any other term you'd like to apply to it) and basically says we might as well sit back and enjoy the ride, because we have no free will. If every single incident is God's will and we are not meant to act/intervene, we might as well sit at home and not work--if it's God's will that we eat, manna will fall for us. See where that line of thinking leads? Having said all that...if something truly is God's will, it will happen as He sees fit. If it's His will that I live or die, it will be. If He wills that I live and part of His plan is I pick up a gun, jawbone of an ass, or a rolled up newspaper and defend myself, then it will be. If He wills that I die, hiding out in an underground nuclear shelter won't save me. But again, let's not confuse God's will with man's free will and every incident that ever happens. It is not God's will that little children be molested/hurt or any of the other myriad of atrocities that man does unto his fellow man. Sorry for the lengthy post--THIS topic and discussion points could be debated and expounded on at length. Great topic for debate though! In closing, here are some applicable quotes to further consider: "If guns kill people, spoons make people fat." "If guns are designed to kill people, all mine are defective." "Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." — Heinrich Himmler "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non ["something essential" lit. "without which not"] for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police." -- Adolph Hitler, Edict of March 18, 1938 "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." — Mahatma Ghandi Quote
LifeHiscost Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Sorry for the lengthy post--THIS topic and discussion points could be debated and expounded on at length. Great topic for debate though! In closing, here are some applicable quotes to further consider: "If guns kill people, spoons make people fat." "If guns are designed to kill people, all mine are defective." "Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." — Heinrich Himmler "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non ["something essential" lit. "without which not"] for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police." -- Adolph Hitler, Edict of March 18, 1938 "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." — Mahatma Ghandi A very good post and highly informative. Much of our conclusions come from where we are planning to spend the next 1000 years and who/Who we are planning to spend them with. "So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven." Luke 11:2 NKJV Bold mine LHC Nothing I have read in the Word has given me evidence that Jesus wishes me to slaughter even the worst of my enemies, under any circumstances. Putting my trust in Him Who has promised to keep me and mine in His care, gives me boldness to say, if I am to die I would rather be slaughtered for His will to be accomplished, than go down as a result of swinging a slaughter weapon against those He came to save. "For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost.”"Luke 19:10 NLT To help the enemy of souls to accomplish his wishes to kill the wicked before they have had a chance to receive the love of Jesus for their souls, only serves to answer this question. "“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls. If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand?"Luke 11:17,18 NKJV The cause of God does not win adherents to the Kingdom of God by taking up the weapons of the arch-enemy. "But Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword back into its sheath. Shall I not drink from the cup of suffering the Father has given me?”"John 18:11 NLT God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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