The Arizona Shootings

[bonnie]

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Much of our conclusions come from where we are planning to spend the next 1000 years and who/Who we are planning to spend them with.

You do not have the intelligence or the ability to know where anyone else's conclusions come from.

Must be such a righteous feeling to count yourself one who is planning to spend the next 1000 years and who/Who we are planning to spend them with.Those that disagree with you are planning on what??

I cannot think of anything more evil than standing by watching someone harmed or killed,child or otherwise while proclaiming how righteous they are.

My dad had a name for people that stood by and let others be harmed if it could be prevented.

COATHOLDERS.Those not throwing the stones at Stephen and piously stood and watched were as evil as the ones that stoned him

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help the enemy of souls to accomplish his wishes to kill the wicked before they have had a chance to receive the love of Jesus for their souls, only serves to answer this question.

If they are the age of reason or above they have the responsibility and the opportunity to receive the love of Jesus.But maybe the one being harmed or killed hasn't had that chance. What are they,disposable garbage.I am afraid my sympathies would be for those that have no choice.Those attacking someone with evil intent have made a choice

[Sonny]

You believe it evil to fight to protect an innocent child.

Matt 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying: 18 "A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, Refusing to be comforted, Because they are no more."

Was God evil?

[Sonny]

I don't see mostly "evil". I see mostly good.

How do you define evil? Apparently what you term good, heaven defines as evil. I believe that you are one of those who probably believes that people are basically good, right?

What do you do with this?

Matt 7:11 If you, then, being evil, are able to give good things to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who make requests to him?

Here we have parents, who do good things for their children, being called "evil" by Christ.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

You believe it evil to fight to protect an innocent child.

Matt 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying: 18 "A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, Refusing to be comforted, Because they are no more."

Was God evil?

Herod sent the decree to kill all children under two. God did not.

This is pointless,let me make it loud and clear to you.

ANYONE THAT STANDS BY AND LET'S SOMEONE,ESPECIALLY A CHILD BE HARMED OR WORSE IS AS EVIL AS THE ONE COMMITTING THE CRIME

[Sonny]

Herod sent the decree to kill all children under two. God did not.

This is pointless,let me make it loud and clear to you.

ANYONE THAT STANDS BY AND LET'S SOMEONE, ESPECIALLY A CHILD BE HARMED, OR WORSE IS AS EVIL AS THE ONE COMMITTING THE CRIME

God didn't interfere. Is God evil? Abortion happens daily. It is used as birth control and yet God rarely interferes. Is God evil? Sounds like that is what you are saying in your rant above.

[Sonny]

Jesus said: "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me, even if he dies, will live."

This is what's important. There are no guarantees in this world.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Herod sent the decree to kill all children under two. God did not.

This is pointless,let me make it loud and clear to you.

ANYONE THAT STANDS BY AND LET'S SOMEONE, ESPECIALLY A CHILD BE HARMED, OR WORSE IS AS EVIL AS THE ONE COMMITTING THE CRIME

God didn't interfere. Is God evil? Abortion happens daily. It is used as birth control and yet God rarely interferes. Is God evil? Sounds like that is what you are saying in your rant above.

This doesn't even deserve an answer

[bonnie]

Jesus said: "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me, even if he dies, will live."

This is what's important. There are no guarantees in this world.

It is the ultimate in importance but life is important as well.

Just for your information I am quite familiar with the texts you keep using as if no one else has heard of them

[LifeHiscost]

It's very rare, and that's why it's shocking. People generally respect each other enough not to go on shooting rampages.

Today I was watching the Nazi Holocaust on film, and some of the survivors that still live on with the nightmares that still plague their memories. It brought to mind the incident of Rawanda, and the almost a million people there who were butchered in about 100 days. Then my memory serves me to bring up some of the scenes of more recent vintage re: Bosnia and the holocaust in that area.

Genocide is an ongoing phenomenon that will continue, and if Jesus delays His coming (which I don't necessarily believe will happen) the exponential growth of the human population expected to continue, will bring 20,000,000,000 (that's with a more souls to live on the earth by the year 2025, only 14 years away, most of which will be treated like cannon fodder.

I'm wondering what planet you're from, no offense meant.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."2 Peter 3:9 KJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

I cannot think of anything more evil than standing by watching someone harmed or killed,child or otherwise while proclaiming how righteous they are.

My dad had a name for people that stood by and let others be harmed if it could be prevented.

COATHOLDERS.Those not throwing the stones at Stephen and piously stood and watched were as evil as the ones that stoned him

I guess that summation would have to include Jesus Who knew when He went to the grave, that multiplied millions of His faithful followers would go to the grave as a result of Him not stepping in to save them, when He could have before they perished from this earth, not to mention the uncountable of the wicked as well.

"Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”"John 18:36 NKJV

God blesses!

[fccool]

Genocide is an ongoing phenomenon that will continue, and if Jesus delays His coming (which I don't necessarily believe will happen) the exponential growth of the human population expected to continue, will bring 20,000,000,000 (that's with a more souls to live on the earth by the year 2025, only 14 years away, most of which will be treated like cannon fodder.

I'm wondering what planet you're from, no offense meant.

Overall, the conditions of humanity improved greatly due to the knowledge and newly developed technologies. People live longer, and they live more comfortably. Genocide on global scale is a rare event when compared to totality of global population. As horrible and devastating the events and life loss during the WWII were (the most devastating war in history)... when looked in perspective... 2.84% of the world population were killed. This was the most devastating war in history that left much of the world in ruins! What 20 Billion cannon fodder are you talking about? No need to paint this idiotic idea for the sake of fulfilling religious fantasies of soon coming of the Savior. (no offense meant)

People generally respect life, and they respect their right to property. They don't run around killing each other. These are rare occasions when compared to totality of global population, and ironically these happen in context of religious quarrels or political conquest or statist ideology.

What religion tends to accomplish is to plant the seeds of mental discomfort, and feeling that everything is just terrible. It's not. Even if there's no God, I'm very thankful for everything life has to offer. It's been an awesome experience. There were difficult times during Soviet Union breakdown when things were not as shiny for me and my family, but I was still thankful for life. People don't need much to enjoy it.

I still contend that life is beautiful and worth living in any condition you may have it. It's all a matter of perspective. Even if I'm allowed to live but one day on thins planet in worst conditions imaginable (like many incests do)... life still would be an experience worth living out.

[bonnie]

I guess that summation would have to include Jesus Who knew when He went to the grave, that multiplied millions of His faithful followers would go to the grave as a result of Him not stepping in to save them, when He could have before they perished from this earth, not to mention the uncountable of the wicked as well.

Someone that quotes bible text after bible text should recognize the difference.

Many have been and will be called on to forfeit their lives rather than give up their faith.

A little different tha a Ted Bundy kidnaping,raping and killing scores of young women just because he felt like it and could. From what I read of what you have said is you would simply stand there listening to the young woman scream.After all,this must be the day God set aside for her to die.

[Sonny]

This doesn't even deserve an answer

You can't answer....

[Sonny]

It is the ultimate in importance but life is important as well.

Never said it wasn't, but there are no guarantees.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

This doesn't even deserve an answer

You can't answer....

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

It is not God's plan for death. We live under the kingdoms of this world that's under Lucifer the lord of this world. Death is a result of Lucifer's kingdom. God doesn't always interfere....In fact many times He doesn't.

Many Christians know this, yet they chose to bring children in this world. I think I would do things differently now....I think it's a terrible world to bring kids into. There are no guarantees. We need not be concerned about the 1st death...it's the 2nd death we want to avoid.

When trouble comes...when our world almost universally rejects God...let's see how good your guns will do you then! Will you try to save your life, or will you love not your life unto death?

I certainly think that this gloom&doom approach does no good for the world. The world is beautiful. I don't see mostly "evil". I see mostly good. I've been through some rough times, and I still see mostly good in those rough times. Life is worth living and life is worth defending, and certainly worth bringing children into.

What happened in Arizona does not happen often. It's very rare, and that's why it's shocking. People generally respect each other enough not to go on shooting rampages.

Great post fccool

[LifeHiscost]

I still contend that life is beautiful and worth living in any condition you may have it. It's all a matter of perspective. Even if I'm allowed to live but one day on thins planet in worst conditions imaginable (like many incests do)... life still would be an experience worth living out.

"I tell you the truth...Those who love their life in this world will lose it. Those who care nothing for their life in this world will keep it for eternity."John 12:24-26 NLT

God blesses!

[bonnie]

"I tell you the truth...Those who love their life in this world will lose it. Those who care nothing for their life in this world will keep it for eternity."John 12:24-26 NLT

God blesses!

So if you are happy and enjoy the good parts of life it means that you......love their life in this world will lose it. Walk around with a long face,enjoy nothing,find a Jesuit under your bed every morning,ferret out everything you can spin into a conspiracy means you are christian and and care nothing for heaven.

Sure glad I don't live in the same world you do.

I guess enjoying your family,grandchildren,health and doing for others.I just plain enjoy getting up in the morning.

[Sonny]

Most christians understand God does not micro manage this world.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Most christians understand God does not micro manage this world.

So God is not in control?

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Most also would have an aversion to shugging at the sight of a child or anyone being harmed and say,"Well,this is the day God intended they die,I must not interfere"

So it's up to us to help God out? God is incapable? This probably carries over in to helping God save us, which leads into legalism.

Maybe you are right. A child in danger,God wants you to walk the other way,a young woman in danger from a Ted Bundy type screaming for help,say sorry,I think God has this as the day you should die and I can't interfere.

I must have interfered with God's plan when I had to revive my husband.Whatever was I thinking,he had already stopped breathing.

When I had a perforated ulcer and was in serious trouble my husband must have interfered with God's plan as it took only minutes to get to the ER.

I certainly hope that you ,LHC and the others refrain from interfering in God's plan and using emergency medical care.

Would not want to see you guilty of legalism

But for me while praying I will do everything I can to prevent a tragedy or help.I can live with being that kind of legalism.

[Guest]

I'm going to assume that the OP was intended to spark a lively debate, and indeed it has.

If not...

Several other developed countries do indeed have national gun groups. Switzerland is often used as the prime example of a heavily armed citizenry with a gun-related crime rate that is so low that they don't even bother keeping statistics on it.

On some of the other posts, we have to remember that we're considering man's laws and God's laws. Two different things, but indeed man's law should be based on God's and we would all be better served. But for a minute, let's consider Judges 15:14-15

"14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines came shouting against him. Then the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him; and the ropes that were on his arms became like flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds broke loose from his hands. 15 He found a fresh jawbone of a donkey, reached out his hand and took it, and killed a thousand men with it."

Would you suppose for one minute that the Philistine authorities then called for a ban on "assault/semi-automatic/automatic/evil black/etc" jawbones? Or perhaps "high capacity" jawbones--because Samson truly had to have been using one of those--just look at the numbers--he killed a thousand men with it.

For those who would argue that defending one's self or others is interfering with God's will--who's to say that it's NOT God's will that at that point in time we were suppose to defend ourselves or come to the aid of others? God gave man free will. To consider the outcome of all events ever to be God's will is predestination (or any other term you'd like to apply to it) and basically says we might as well sit back and enjoy the ride, because we have no free will. If every single incident is God's will and we are not meant to act/intervene, we might as well sit at home and not work--if it's God's will that we eat, manna will fall for us. See where that line of thinking leads?

Having said all that...if something truly is God's will, it will happen as He sees fit. If it's His will that I live or die, it will be. If He wills that I live and part of His plan is I pick up a gun, jawbone of an ass, or a rolled up newspaper and defend myself, then it will be. If He wills that I die, hiding out in an underground nuclear shelter won't save me. But again, let's not confuse God's will with man's free will and every incident that ever happens. It is not God's will that little children be molested/hurt or any of the other myriad of atrocities that man does unto his fellow man.

Sorry for the lengthy post--THIS topic and discussion points could be debated and expounded on at length. Great topic for debate though!

In closing, here are some applicable quotes to further consider:

"If guns kill people, spoons make people fat."

"If guns are designed to kill people, all mine are defective."

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." — Heinrich Himmler

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected peoples to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non ["something essential" lit. "without which not"] for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police." -- Adolph Hitler, Edict of March 18, 1938

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." — Mahatma Ghandi

Excellent post!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Generally speaking, the kind of people that normally rob houses are not snipers, and don't carry around high powered rifles. LOL

Look, if someone really wants your goods they aren't going to have a shootout with you. They'll cap you at a distance....

Again, you gun toting folks really have a false sense of security. Maybe too much TV?

I think you're the one watching too much tv. If you get shot by a sniper, it's not because he wants to rob your house. This much I know. And I don't watch tv.

Sounds like your knowledge of real life is not from hands on experience.

[fccool]

"I tell you the truth...Those who love their life in this world will lose it. Those who care nothing for their life in this world will keep it for eternity."John 12:24-26 NLT

God blesses!

So.....?

[Sonny]

a young woman in danger from a Ted Bundy type screaming for help, say sorry, I think God has this as the day you should die and I can't interfere.

God said to love your enemies...do not render evil for evil, etc. Go help her even if you lose your life.

[Sonny]

If you get shot by a sniper, it's not because he wants to rob your house. This much I know. And I don't watch tv.

So you are an expert? You know about all crimes involving the use of weapons and robbery? I need proof...evidence, not just because you say things....