doug yowell Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 In response to the Antestor (Christian) song that I posted, Norman wrote: Quote: The music that you posted I personally would never listen to because it is rebellious, selfish and ungodly. How does one arrive at that conclusion? What evidence is adduced, what standards apply? It can't be the lyrics, because they were a very straightforward plea to the listener to come to Jesus for salvation. Presumably there must be some particular features of the vocal style, instruments, playing style or something... but I'm honestly not sure how one sings or plays guitar or drums in a style that is 'rebellious, selfish and ungodly'. Can anyone explain? Norman posted:"The music you posted is..." Lyrics are not music.Are you suggesting that all music,apart from any lyrical input, is amoral or that any emotional response created by music is unconnected to human spirituality either going out or going in? Do you see music as tofu? Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted April 10, 2011 Moderators Posted April 10, 2011 I'm saying that there's only one rational grounds for deciding whether music is good or evil: the lyrical content (if any). Everything else is subjective: what makes one feel rage will make another exalt. Universal claims to the contrary have been made but no evidence (beyond the anecdotal) offered. Quote Truth is important
doug yowell Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 I'm saying that there's only one rational grounds for deciding whether music is good or evil: the lyrical content (if any). Everything else is subjective: what makes one feel rage will make another exalt. Universal claims to the contrary have been made but no evidence (beyond the anecdotal) offered. But lyrics aren't music so how can a non musical entity be the objective determinate of musical propriety. If you insist that it's the lyrics that determine the morality of music you must also concurr that music itself has no intrinsic spiritual value.Tofu. Tastes only like what it's flavored with.What about music that has no lyrics? Can it have any emotional or spiritual effects on it's listeners? If not then why would anyone compose it? There are lots of questions that the subjective approach raises. Know what I mean? Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted April 10, 2011 Moderators Posted April 10, 2011 Yep, I do, and they are all interesting questions. The point is that they are complex questions and it's unhelpful to offer simple answers. For someone who has lived in the culture for a long time, listening to reggae might be a temptation to smoke ganja - for me it's just music. It's the subjective reaction of the individual that makes the music what it is, not some objective quality of the music. For people like Richard, John317 and Norman, heavy rock has a particular range of meanings and associations. For someone 200 years ago, perhaps the music of Mozart raised similar associations. Those gents who post here shouldn't listen to rock, it's not helpful for them. I'm not gainsaying them on that. That hypothetical 19th century chap shouldn't listen to Mozart. What all of these gents should avoid doing, though, is projecting their own subjective experiences onto everyone else and preaching that what is unhelpful for them is unhelpful for everyone. Quote Truth is important
doug yowell Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 Yep, I do, and they are all interesting questions. The point is that they are complex questions and it's unhelpful to offer simple answers. For someone who has lived in the culture for a long time, listening to reggae might be a temptation to smoke ganja - for me it's just music. It's the subjective reaction of the individual that makes the music what it is, not some objective quality of the music. For people like Richard, John317 and Norman, heavy rock has a particular range of meanings and associations. For someone 200 years ago, perhaps the music of Mozart raised similar associations. Those gents who post here shouldn't listen to rock, it's not helpful for them. I'm not gainsaying them on that. That hyopthetical 19th century chap shouldn't listen to Mozart. What all of these gents should avoid doing, though, is projecting their own subjective experiences onto everyone else and preach that what is unhelpful for them is unhelpful for everyone. So you do believe that music itself can only be subjectively liked or disliked, that the association of bad is only in the mind of the listener. Which means that if anyone likes the music but is convinced in their spirit that it violates a spiritual standard that they are simply self deluded (couldn't think of a less provocative synonym right off the bat)or even themselves being used by their erroneous convictions to oppose that which God in fact might actually condone? Do you allow at all that even music may have objectively right or wrong spiritual confines? Principles or guidelines that God has applied to all? Do you believe that human beings are physically,mentally, and spiritually intertwined or do you think each compartment is unaffected by the other? Quote
doug yowell Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 What all of these gents should avoid doing, though, is projecting their own subjective experiences onto everyone else and preaching that what is unhelpful for them is unhelpful for everyone.Sorta begs the question,don't you think? It is the very point under discussion. Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted April 10, 2011 Moderators Posted April 10, 2011 OK, show me how we decide. It's all I'm asking. All we have is the impressions of a very narrow sample of human beings with very similar histories and values. Show me some standards that stand up in a range of time broader than the last 30 years and culture broader than Western Seventh-day Adventist Christian and we'll be in a position to answer the question in some useful way. All we have so far is a lot of opinions being claimed to be universal truths. Simply the *fact* that music has an emotional effect is not enough: the point I made above is that that emotional effect is different for different people. I am not judging that others are self deluded when they find certain music to arouse bad emotions within themselves. What I am objecting to is their assumption that the same music will arouse the same emotions in me, and in our 19th century gent, and in a 12th century monk and one of Genghis Khan's warriors and a modern Shinjuku teen and... And that propisition needs more support than just assertions. Quote Truth is important
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 You guys are drawing a pretty long rhetorical and inferential bow. The *words* of the song I posted were impeccable. The rest of the argument above relies on the analogy between music and language, and the associated claim that music is somehow different from a wide variety of other human communication systems. Hi Bravus I was generalizing and not referring to the song you posted. But I have come to the end of this discussion and think I'll just pick up my guitar and talk to myself :) Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Guest Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 But I have come to the end of this discussion and think I'll just pick up my guitar and talk to myself Good idea...I did some of that earlier today. Quote
WayneV Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 Quick Reply to all: @Richard Holbrook: Awsome licks! @Sivart: I am 50y/o and I haven't grown out of it yet! @Several Others: It is a wonder that we ever progressed past the Gregorian chant! Some see R&R as a tool of the devil and say that God never uses the things of the devil to get his messaage accross. I reply, He uses people! Agape` Quote WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream!
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted September 9, 2011 Posted September 9, 2011 Here's a good video by Ivor Myers which helps you know whose music you are listening to. I believe it's a start but there more that could be added to this. http://vimeo.com/5439320 Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
doug yowell Posted September 9, 2011 Posted September 9, 2011 Here's a good video by Ivor Myers which helps you know whose music you are listening to. I believe it's a start but there more that could be added to this. http://vimeo.com/5439320 This is a very controversial subject but, given the status of music today, a very important one. Glad to see you resurrect it from the apparent dead, Norman.I was disappointed to see the former rockers check out of the discussion. Their experiences are not to be so cavalierly disposed of. Quote
Guest Posted September 9, 2011 Posted September 9, 2011 It IS a controversial subject. And maybe not as cut and dried as some would think. Quote
M. T. Cross Posted September 9, 2011 Posted September 9, 2011 The one I have doesn't have a whammy. I tend not to use it for what I play, plus I had enough bad experiences with really cheap and nasty guitars that went out of tune if you so much as looked at them that I kind of have a preference for a fixed bridge. It's by far the nicest guitar I've played, though, with a low and very smooth action and good sustain. Isn't the 11th commandmant Thou Shalt Whammy ? Quote
doug yowell Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 It IS a controversial subject. And maybe not as cut and dried as some would think. I tend to agree. I'm trying to be open to reasonably reasoned reasonings but I've got lots of questions. Quote
olger Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Guest Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 I don't listen to rock and roll anymore. I either listen to talk radio, or sermons that I burn to cd, and take in the car with me. But... When I play my guitar, I do like to play some rock and roll, even though it may be my own home made variety, because it's fun to play. Quote
olger Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 I always appreciated Mark Knopfler's talents. `g he needs Jesus. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 What do you think of this? http://youtu.be/MYIHTowOPbs Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Moderators John317 Posted September 10, 2011 Moderators Posted September 10, 2011 Hi Norman! Thanks for posting this link. I had never even heard of this outstanding musician. He makes beautiful music. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted September 10, 2011 Moderators Posted September 10, 2011 Have you heard this before? I love it. Keith Green's Prodigal Son: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3TYkAWRdU4&feature=related Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted September 10, 2011 Posted September 10, 2011 Hi John317, I have heard of Kieth Green before but I'm not sure if I've heard that song. Here's another by Doyle Dykes Amazing Grace http://youtu.be/i6kPmX7dB4s Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
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