Was Jesus Christ Born With a Sinful Nature like me?

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

There is no textual evidence that the Holy Spirit forever banned Paul from going to Asia.

Is there any textual evidence that he did give later permission?

Sorry Gary, I promise, I am not just following you around on the forum to disagree with you.

LOL. That's funny, Flyboy.

What evidence is there that the HS later gave Paul permission? Because Paul went there later, and didn't go there at the time in question. Do you really think that a man whom the Holy Spirit took to the 7th heaven, whatever that is but I can certainly say I've never been taken there, is going to blatantly ignore the instruction of the Holy Spirit? Especially the man that said it is very hard to kick against the pricks? The pricks of what? The Holy Spirit.

You must look at Paul in his entirety of actions. He was a man who lived as he taught. He loathed the idea of preaching one way, and living another. He acknowledged that he had a right to claim support for his ministry, yet never took any and supported himself simply because he wanted to make sure that everyone understood that you must live your beliefs. And you want to take this man, a man of staunch character and say he went directly against the leading of the Holy Spirit?

That doesn't fit with the character of Paul after his conversion, nor even with his character before his conversion. Paul was an all-or-nothing type of guy. He was fully committed to what he believed. He was once fully committed to do violence to Christianity. Then he changed and was ever after fully committed to following Christ. He left his home, his friends, his life as he had known it to follow the mission God gave him, and you want to believe that in the middle of all that he is just going to up and blatantly disobey God? Where does that come from?

[Sonny]

Our works are the evidence of our relationship with God, or our lack of a relationship with God. So, yes we will be judged by our works, for the they show the condition of the heart....

If we are judged by our works we will never make it.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

Our works are the evidence of our relationship with God, or our lack of a relationship with God. So, yes we will be judged by our works, for the they show the condition of the heart....

If we are judged by our works we will never make it.

According to who? You? The Bible is very plain that we will be judged by our works. That theme is repeated in multiple books of the Bible. That you don't want to accept the plain words of the Bible desn't make them untrue. Jesus, John, Paul, and Peter all say the same thing, and that's just off the top of my head.

All being judged by our works implies is that we will be judged by the treasures of our hearts. Are you afraid of that too? If so then you are very unsure of God's ability to change your heart.

[Sonny]

According to who? You? The Bible is very plain that we will be judged by our works.

Then you'll never make it:

Romans 3:20 "By the works of the Law no flesh [no one] will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

Gal 3:11 "...no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; because, "THE JUST BY FAITH SHALL LIVE." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "Whoever does the works of the law will by them live."

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace [i.e., you are lost]

[Sonny]

Are you afraid of that too? If so then you are very unsure of God's ability to change your heart.

God can do nothing without our consent. And God doesn't work in us to save us so we can go to heaven. We have heaven by our faith in the doing & dying of Christ. Only those who are resting in Christ can experience agape.

[Flyboy]

What evidence is there that the HS later gave Paul permission? Because Paul went there later, and didn't go there at the time in question. Do you really think that a man whom the Holy Spirit took to the 7th heaven, whatever that is but I can certainly say I've never been taken there, is going to blatantly ignore the instruction of the Holy Spirit? Especially the man that said it is very hard to kick against the pricks? The pricks of what? The Holy Spirit.

You must look at Paul in his entirety of actions. He was a man who lived as he taught. He loathed the idea of preaching one way, and living another. He acknowledged that he had a right to claim support for his ministry, yet never took any and supported himself simply because he wanted to make sure that everyone understood that you must live your beliefs. And you want to take this man, a man of staunch character and say he went directly against the leading of the Holy Spirit?

That doesn't fit with the character of Paul after his conversion, nor even with his character before his conversion. Paul was an all-or-nothing type of guy. He was fully committed to what he believed. He was once fully committed to do violence to Christianity. Then he changed and was ever after fully committed to following Christ. He left his home, his friends, his life as he had known it to follow the mission God gave him, and you want to believe that in the middle of all that he is just going to up and blatantly disobey God? Where does that come from?

First off, I don't have any problem with Paul. But your statement in the post I responded to was whether or not there was any textual evidence telling Paul to never go to Asia. My response was to ask the same question, is there *textual* evidence specifically to send him back. You have provided contextual evidence, not textual evidence. You asked for textual, and so do I.

If someone else had written your response, and you were responding to that, I think you may be the first to point out what I just pointed out to you, above. So, to pull an 'ole "GaryK" on you "...but where is the TEXTUAL evidence?, you didn't answer the question." I know, I shouldn't put words in your mouth...

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

According to who? You? The Bible is very plain that we will be judged by our works.

Then you'll never make it:

Romans 3:20 "By the works of the Law no flesh [no one] will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

Gal 3:11 "...no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; because, "THE JUST BY FAITH SHALL LIVE." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "Whoever does the works of the law will by them live."

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace [i.e., you are lost]

I disagree. The God of the Bible has promised me a new heart that is in harmony with His law, and that I will walk in His statutes and judgments, and do them. What have I to fear when God has made a covenant with me like that? Is He going to break His word? That is what you're telling me.

You're telling me God can't, or won't, keep His word. The God I know will never do that. It doesn't lie within Him to do that.

[Gary K]

First off, I don't have any problem with Paul. But your statement in the post I responded to was whether or not there was any textual evidence telling Paul to never go to Asia. My response was to ask the same question, is there *textual* evidence specifically to send him back. You have provided contextual evidence, not textual evidence. You asked for textual, and so do I.

If someone else had written your response, and you were responding to that, I think you may be the first to point out what I just pointed out to you, above. So, to pull an 'ole "GaryK" on you "...but where is the TEXTUAL evidence?, you didn't answer the question." I know, I shouldn't put words in your mouth...

First, there is absolutely no textual evidence that the prohibition on traveling to Asia was a permanent prohibition. That is being assumed without any evidence for that assumption.

Second, take a look at a map of Paul's journeys, his second journey in particular, and see what Asia was considered to be at that time. Ephesus and Troas were both in Asia. .

It was in Troas that Paul prayed for Eutychus and brought him back to life. Read IICorinthians 2:12 and see that God was opening doors for Paul while he was in Asia (Troas). He received his vision of the man from Macedonia calling him to come over and help them, while in Troas(Asia).

So, God is going to give Paul visions, bring a man back to life at the prayer of Paul, while he is deliberately disobeying God? Get real. That Paul is working hand-in-hand with God and had God's blessing when he is Asia at a later time is textual evidence that the Holy Spirit did not permanently ban Paul from Asia.

There is a complete lack of evidence that God was unhappy with Paul going to Asia at later times. The textual evidence says just the opposite.

[Sonny]

I disagree.

[BobRyan]

I agree that due to the depravity of our sinful nature - sin is only overcome by the power of God in the form of the Holy Spirit.

As for striving against sin --

Hebrews 12

1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

1Cor 9

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;

27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

Bob,

Do you think Paul disciplined himself outside of the context of being led to that point by the Holy Spirit?

No. I think he is describing the way a saved saint remains saved.

Romans 8 says "If by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh" then you are the children of God.

So, do we then surrender(yield) to the prompting of the Holy Spirit so that He can put to death our deeds of the flesh, or do we fight(strive) against the deeds of the flesh?

[Flyboy]

First, there is absolutely no textual evidence that the prohibition on traveling to Asia was a permanent prohibition. That is being assumed without any evidence for that assumption.

Second, take a look at a map of Paul's journeys, his second journey in particular, and see what Asia was considered to be at that time. Ephesus and Troas were both in Asia. .

It was in Troas that Paul prayed for Eutychus and brought him back to life. Read IICorinthians 2:12 and see that God was opening doors for Paul while he was in Asia (Troas). He received his vision of the man from Macedonia calling him to come over and help them, while in Troas(Asia).

So, God is going to give Paul visions, bring a man back to life at the prayer of Paul, while he is deliberately disobeying God? Get real. That Paul is working hand-in-hand with God and had God's blessing when he is Asia at a later time is textual evidence that the Holy Spirit did not permanently ban Paul from Asia.

There is a complete lack of evidence that God was unhappy with Paul going to Asia at later times. The textual evidence says just the opposite.

I did not say that God was unhappy with Paul for going to Asia. I'm just asking you to pony up with the textual evidence that he told him to go. If the Holy Spirit forbade Paul to go to Asia and there is no evidence that ends that prohibition, you can't point to the lack of evidence for the *length* of that prohibition as proof that he DID give permission.... all that it means is that we don't know whether he did or didn't.

Your suggestion that God would not continue to bless someone, and use someone, who had disobeyed Him seems inconsistent with what happened with Moses, and others. He disobeyed God, and while, yes, he did pay a heavy price, God did continue to trust and bless him. I suspect that there are a few examples like this in the Bible.

At the end of the day, I, like you, suspect that the Holy Spirit probably led Paul to Asia. It just makes sense based on what we know, I am NOT arguing against you on the point of the *probability* of his being given instructions to go. BUT, we cannot disagree that other of God's messengers disobeyed and were still blessed, and we cannot deny that there are no specific words from God later permitting him to go (or not to go, as you point out). That's my only point...

...but it is an important point to make and I will make it again on other threads because it is one that I see SDA's doing a lot, suggesting that we as a church know exactly what God wanted/did/said, understanding everything and thus rejecting any possible new interpretation as patently false simply because it makes some people uncomfortable.

As you noted on another thread Gary, you are slow to change, but it's not just you. It's me too, it's human nature. It's not just the SDA church, it's the organizational lifecycle, in fact. Companies, or the the life of companies, are similar to humans. They are born, quickly grow, change, modify, are flexible, and then they become large, cumbersome, and resist change even when the suggested changes are needed. The corporate DNA, pulse, and psychology all change, typically for the worse. Eventually the company disappears if it does not consider difficult issues, issues which would have been easily overcome in infancy or adolescence. Where are we, as a church, in that cycle? Can we escape it? It's hard to escape for the simple fact that change is hard to come by due to stubbornness, from every side, and pride. But I am a member of the church because I believe it is closer to the truth than any other church. I work for the church because I hope to contribute some little speck of something useful to God's work. One of the things I hope I can reflect is the need for all of us to be more accepting of other people, and their ideas. Not to change, but to consider.

For SDA who have grown up in the church the idea of "consider" when it comes to your religion may not come naturally. But I can tell you from years of experience in my work, that these people *must* at some point ask themselves some very heartfelt and sincere questions. They will almost always go to a church member, pastor, teacher, or parent/friend and ask for advice. What they are seeking to do is to own their faith. it is a very, very fundamental turning point in the life of all Christians. There comes a point when ALL people raised in this environment must stop just doing through the actions and must sincerely accept what they believe. If the advice they receive when they are at their most vulnerable to God's word simply stifles the workings of their minds, open, alive, eager, vibrant... then that person will soon turn off to the overall message because he/she will perceive us as being featherweights when it comes to asking heavyweight questions. We are capable of being heavyweights, but the culture we presently adhere to doesn't exactly encourage it.

Thus my heartfelt concern over how we can reach people and address today's difficult questions.

[Gary K]

Quote:

I did not say that God was unhappy with Paul for going to Asia. I'm just asking you to pony up with the textual evidence that he told him to go. If the Holy Spirit forbade Paul to go to Asia and there is no evidence that ends that prohibition, you can't point to the lack of evidence for the *length* of that prohibition as proof that he DID give permission.... all that it means is that we don't know whether he did or didn't.

Your suggestion that God would not continue to bless someone, and use someone, who had disobeyed Him seems inconsistent with what happened with Moses, and others. He disobeyed God, and while, yes, he did pay a heavy price, God did continue to trust and bless him. I suspect that there are a few examples like this in the Bible.

Well, I can see that we are going to have to agree to disagree. Below will be the last I have to say on the subject as we will just go on pounding on each other. That will do none of us any good.

You say I can't use scriptual evidence of God blessing Paul while he is supposedly in direct rebellion against God. Then you point out examples where God used people after they repented and stopped doing what God asked them not to do. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[Flyboy]

Well, I can see that we are going to have to agree to disagree. Below will be the last I have to say on the subject as we will just go on pounding on each other. That will do none of us any good.

You say I can't use scriptual evidence of God blessing Paul while he is supposedly in direct rebellion against God. Then you point out examples where God used people after they repented and stopped doing what God asked them not to do. You're comparing apples and oranges.

I can agree to disagree yet I think you are missing my point. Is there or is there not a verse in the Bible specifically indicating that God ended, or gave, Paul permission to go to Asia (as in a verse specifically counter to Acts 16:6)? Simple yes or no. No need for the use of context. In context I agree with you. I'm *not* saying that your position on Paul's ministry and leading by the holy spirit is wrong.

Did Moses repent from his ways BEFORE he struck the rock in direct disobedience to God's instructions to speak to the rock? I think not, yet God still allowed water to come from the rock.

[BobRyan]

So, do we then surrender(yield) to the prompting of the Holy Spirit so that He can put to death our deeds of the flesh, or do we fight(strive) against the deeds of the flesh?

Because of the depravity of our sinful human nature (as described in Romans 3) we do not have the option of victory over sin "on our own".

But victory over sin is very much a reality according to Romans 6, Romans 8, Romans 2 and 1Cor 10 - if we choose to walk in faith by the power of God the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

if we choose to walk in faith by the power of God the Holy Spirit...

And how is that done?

[BobRyan]

Starts with the New Birth.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

Starts with the New Birth

And what does that mean?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

if we choose to walk in faith by the power of God the Holy Spirit...

And how is that done?

There's only one way to walk in the Spirit....It's in the NT. I need you to say it.....

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Starts with the New Birth

And what does that mean?

The New Birth comes about in response to the drawing of all mankind in John 12:32 by God.

The Holy Spirit convicts the World of sin and righteousness and judgment as we see in John 16.

God places supernatural emnity between Satan's kingdom and fallen mankind as we see in Gen 3 so that man is enabled to choose to accept the Gospel.

Christ is the light that coming into the world - enlightens every man as we see in John 1.

Christ says he stands at the door and knocks as we see in Rev 3.

Thus the New Covenant gospel - going all the way back to Gen 3 (the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-11) - is that to each person is offerred the gift of eternal life through the shed blood of Christ as our substitutionary atoning sacrifice for sin (see it in 2Cor 5 where we are also told that once we are born again we are a 'new creation').

Have you considered accepting Christ as your Savior? That is the door to victory over sin. Because that is the door to the indwelling "Christ in me the hope of Glory" where we can say with Paul "It is no longer I who lives but Christ lives in me" Gal 2:20

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

You didn't answer my questions.....You don't know, do you?