Was Jesus Christ Born With a Sinful Nature like me?

[Sonny]

Eve was tempted to what she thought was in her best interest....

But she didn't have a nature opposite of God's. She was in perfect harmony with God's love - a love that is not self-seeking.

God made Eve in His likeness after His image. She was perfect in thought and action. She, like God, reflected agape....How could she be tempted with selfishness? You didn't answer this!

[miz3]

Read the story of the temptation in Genesis chapter 3. There is your answer.

Even though Eve, and Adam to, had sinless natures they could and were tempted to gratify self. However, they were not destined to have to give in to this proposal.

For you and me it is different: We have a sinful nature. Paul clearly states that we are slaves to that sinful nature and as such are unable to "choose" good or even see the good is good without God doing or coming in and changing us so that we are able to see the Light and able to know the Light.

As the Bible says "we are blind, naked, and poor". How can someone blind see unless someone opens their eyes for them?

As a blind one you and I cannot even see the Light let alone know it even exists. How then can we have any capacity to do anything on our own?

We need to read the Bible more and do less "outside reading" that is full of errors.

You should not try and use complex concepts like "agape love" before you handle the basic issues of the human condition and the basic issues of who God is.

[John317]

Was Christ tempted to smoke maryjane? Was Christ tempted to watch evil things on TV? etc. etc.

Of course the answer is NO! Then how could Jesus Christ be tempted "in all points" or "in every way" "just as we are"?

It isn't necesssary for Jesus to be tempted to watch porn or smoke weed in order for him to have been tempted on all points just as we are. He was tempted on all the principles that we are tempted on.

"Just as" means exactly like. So He was tempted just like us in principle in all temptations that we face. Only the temptations He faced were much greater and harder to resist.

How are we tempted?

James 1:14-15

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Jesus was enticed by inward desires. He knew what it was like to desire to disobey God, but He refused. He always chose to do the will of God.

Christ never allowed the "desire" to conceive.

As a free moral agent, Christ could have sinned, but He never did. He always chose to do the will of His Father.

[miz3]

John317,

Read my earlier post on "One Temptation" that should be sufficient answer.

[John317]

... Then how could Jesus Christ be tempted "in all points" or "in every way" "just as we are"?

The answer is very simple:

There is basically ONE TEMPTATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All forms of temptation are from one root. What is that root?

That root is to do your own thing rather than depend on God for everything. In other words take care of the issue yourself, your way, instead of depending on God and doing things God's way.

Hebrews 4: 15 doesn't agree with you. It clearly teaches that Christ was tested on more than a single principle of temptation.

Hebrews 4:15

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

It says Jesus was tempted in "every way," or "in all respects," as we are tempted. It's plural accusative. So it is speaking of more than one way in which Christ was tempted.

[miz3]

John317,

As I stated in my "One Temptation" it is the root of all other temptations. We could call this temptation to do your own thing apart from God the "The Temptation Principle". This Principle is the principle on which all other temptations rest. Therefore Jesus Christ was tempted in all points. It does not matter what the specific temptation is because whatever that specific temptation is comes from the ROOT WHICH IS THE TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Smoking pot........same as the TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE

Why? Because it is doing your own thing apart from God.

Watching porn........same as the TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE

Why? See smoking pot.

Murdering another human........same as the TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE

Etc. Etc.

Jesus Christ faced the same TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE all His life.

Make the stones into bread........the TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE

Why? Jesus would be doing His own thing apart from the Father's will.

Jump down so we can prove that Scripture is correct........the TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE

Why? Jesus would be doing His own thing apart from the Father.

Bow to me so I can give you everything in the world you want........the TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE

Why? Jesus would be doing His own thing instead of what the Father commanded.

No matter what the sin is you are being tempted to engage in, it falls under the TEMPTATION PRINCIPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sonny]

Read the story of the temptation in Genesis chapter 3. There is your answer.

[Gordon1]

Christ never allowed the "desire" to conceive.

As a free moral agent, Christ could have sinned, but He never did. He always chose to do the will of His Father.

Hi John, Sonny, Miz,

Christ was different from us. His spirit of stainless purity shrank from sin. Sin found no resounding chord in the mind of Jesus, it repelled Him.

Those things which are repellent to our nature cannot draw us, even when presented as temptations. A plate of steaming horse manure may attract flies, for this is their natural domain. But when placed upon our table to tempt us, we are unmoved. We cannot be tempted with that which is not in our nature - we shrink from the spectacle.

When we have the mind of Christ (the same spirit), those things which entice the world will find no response in us. We will be dead to those temptations, even though they be presented in a most flattering light.

[Dr. Rich]

Gerry, what I wanted to know is where did Paul write that Jesus was born with a sinful nature? And where does it say that humans are born in a sinful nature?

Hebrews probably was not written by Paul. Paul's letters have his 'mark' on them and "Hebrews" does not have that. Paul talked about 'justification' and Hebrews is all about 'sanctification'.

Hebrews does not say that Jesus was born with any sinful nature. It just says that He was born as humans were born.

Therefore, the question remains, were does anyone get the idea that Jesus took on any 'sinful nature'?

Also, where is it found that humans are born with sinful nature?

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Sonny, you provided Romans 1:3 to show that Jesus was 'just a human born of the seed of David' and was just 'declared' the Son of God when He was raised from the dead, in order to show that Jesus took on sinful nature.

Don't you see something seriously wrong with what Paul said? Jesus was Michael before He was placed into the womb of Mary as a zygote by God Almighty AND the Holy Spirit. He was born just as humans are born, but He was still 'Michael' the Prince of the Kingdom of Heaven, but now called Jesus Christ. See Dan. 9:25; 10:13 & 21; 12:1; Isa, 63:8-9; Jude, 1:9 and Rev. 12:5&7,

[John317]

Hey Sonny, you provided Romans 1:3 to show that Jesus was 'just a human born of the seed of David' and was just 'declared' the Son of God when He was raised from the dead, in order to show that Jesus took on sinful nature.

Don't you see something seriously wrong with what Paul said?

As Jesus of Nazareth, he developed a human personality, which He will always keep. He is no longer the same personality that He was in heaven before coming to this world. He is still "the Word of God," but that Word has taken on a different nature and personlity. He is now the God-man. That's one sense in which the Bible means that God "gave His only Son." God gave Christ to us forever, not only for 30 years. He was in the form of God, but now He is in the form of mankind, a glorified human, yes, yet nevertheless a human being.

Romans 1: 4 says that Christ "was powerfully demonstrated to be Son of God spiritually, set apart by his having been resurrected from the dead." (The Complete Jewish Bible)

It isn't saying that Christ became the Son of God only at the resurrection. It means that the resurrection demonstrated who He was. That is why Thomas said, "My Lord and my God," when he saw that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead.

[John317]

Hebrews 2:14-18

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, [15] and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. [16] For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [18] For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 4:14-16

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. [15] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 5:1-2

For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. [2] He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness.

Hebrews 5:8-9

Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. [9] And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Hebrews 7:14

For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

Romans 1:3

concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh

Matthew 1:1

The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Jesus was (is) both Son of God and Son of man.

Rev. 22:16

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Romans 8:3

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Philip. 2:7

but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form,

[Gerr]

Gerry, what I wanted to know is where did Paul write that Jesus was born with a sinful nature? And where does it say that humans are born in a sinful nature?

I never claimed any such thing. My position is that Jesus, being conceived of the Holy Spirit, had the moral nature of the pre-fallen Adam but had the body of the fallen children of Adam.

[Gerr]

Hebrews 2:14-18

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, [15] and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. [16] For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [18] For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

It is also clear from Mt & Lk that unlike the children of Adam He was conceived through the power of the HS, therefore the above statement has to allow for some exceptions. Yes, Jesus felt pain, hunger, distress, required sleep, got hungry, felt the need for human companship just like every child of Adam.

[Gerr]

There was no self....The concept of self was invented by Lucifer. Instead of living selflessly for others, he bent his agape love back to himself. It's called iniquity.

If you mean by self to = selfishness, then I would agree with you. If you mean self as in individuality, then that is a claim that is totally without foundation. There are no two things that God makes that are exactly alike.

"Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do." Ed 18

[Sonny]

If you mean by self to = selfishness, then I would agree with you. If you mean self as in individuality, then that is a claim that is totally without foundation. There are no two things that God makes that are exactly alike.

"Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do." Ed 18

Okay, I'll use Ellen White to reply what I mean by no "self":

"You will have that love [agape] which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

Clearly agape is a love that doesn't look out for its own interests (in the example above, wealth), but rather a another person's interest. Agape lives to serve without thinking of how it can gain something.

Here's another:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Notice that in heaven you'll have individuality, but your thoughts will not be thinking of self or things you desire for yourself (hence "self"), but rather the happiness of those around you.

You can see this in the life of Christ:

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." There was no "self" in His life.

And Ellen White tells us what the last generation of believers will look like:

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish."

[miz3]

To all,

I continue hold my position which the same position that Gerry stated to Dr. Rich.

Speaking of Dr. Rich, I have some words for you.

No one knows who wrote the Book of Hebrews. Some think Paul, some don't. It does not matter who the author is or was. It is there and as such God preserved it in spite of the history about how the "Canon" came about. Jesus Christ stated that if humans are not able to speak for one reason or the other the "very stones will cry out"! The fact is the stones and all the Creation cries out everywhere in the language humans understand. See Psalm chapter 19.

You can have an argument if you want about "authorship". However, such a discussion here adds nothing to the current topic under this thread. What matters here is what do those writings say about our current topic.

Now that the authorship of Hebrews is clear which is that no one knows who the author is. Ok, Dr. Rich?

[Sonny]

No, there are no answers there & apparently you can't tell me either.

Well, miz3?

[miz3]

Sonny,

Look again through the whole thread and you can read again what I have said. Your answer lies there.

[Dr. Rich]

miz3, Prove that it was God who preserved the writings of Hebrews! You can't. It is only your opinion. A good researcher establishes the source of his evidence. No one knows who wrote Hebrews therefore one can't say if it was inspired by God much less preserved by God to be placed into the the NT. You might as well be using the Qu'ran to answer this question. The Qu'ran has Jesus just being a human prophet. Therefore, to answer this question truthfuly, check out your source first.

Rev. 5 prove that only Jesus could open the book with the seven seals. Only Jesus was both the Son of God and the son of man. But again, no where can one find that Jesus took on the so called "sinful nature of man".

[Gerr]

So, Rich, how do YOU KNOW that the words of Jesus to which you only subscribe to, were recorded accurately, or even not just fables?

[John317]

Prove that it was God who preserved the writings of Hebrews! You can't. It is only your opinion.

Can you prove that the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation? I have a very highly regarded translation of the book of Revelation which says that it is generally believed that John the Beloved did not write Revelation. (Of course it is meant that most liberal scholars don't believe he wrote it.)

Is it true that when you study the book of Hebrews, you are aware of a clear conviction that it was inspired by the Evil One?

When I study it, I have no doubt that God is personally speaking to me. And the things God teaches me through it, I know Satan would not want me to learn.

[John317]

It is also clear from Mt & Lk that unlike the children of Adam He was conceived through the power of the HS, therefore the above statement has to allow for some exceptions. Yes, Jesus felt pain, hunger, distress, required sleep, got hungry, felt the need for human companship just like every child of Adam.

Do you believe Christ took our fallen human nature?

(I don't mean that He had a sinful mind or that Christ was corrupted.)

Ellen White made the following statements:

Quote:

Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Letter 81, 1896. {3SM 134.2}

Quote:

These words of confirmation were given to inspire faith in those who witnessed the scene, and to strengthen the Saviour for His mission. Notwithstanding that the sins of a guilty world were laid upon Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon Himself our fallen nature, the voice from heaven declared Him to be the Son of the Eternal. {DA 112.3}

Quote:

In Christ were united the human and the divine. His mission was to reconcile God to man, and man to God. His work was to unite the finite with the Infinite. This was the only way in which fallen men could be exalted, through the merits of the blood of Christ, to be partakers of the divine nature. Taking human nature fitted Christ to understand the nature of man's trials and all the temptations wherewith he is beset. Angels, who were unacquainted with sin, could not sympathize with man in his peculiar trials. {RH, December 31, 1872 par. 17}

Before Christ left Heaven and came into the world to die, he was taller than any of the angels. He was majestic and lovely. But when his ministry commenced, he was but little taller than the common size of men then living upon the earth. Had he come among men with his noble, heavenly form, his outward appearance would have attracted the minds of the people to himself, and he would have been received without the exercise of faith. {RH, December 31, 1872 par. 18}

It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and himself endure the strength of Satan's fierce temptations, that he might understand how to succor those who should be tempted.

Quote:

In what contrast is the second Adam as he entered the gloomy wilderness to cope with Satan single-handed. Since the fall the race had been decreasing in size and physical strength, and sinking lower in the scale of moral worth, up to the period of Christ's advent to the earth. And in order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was. He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He, who knew no sin, became sin for us. He humiliated himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that he might be qualified to reach man, and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him. {RH, July 28, 1874 par. 5}

[Sonny]

Sonny,

Look again through the whole thread and you can read again what I have said. Your answer lies there.

You haven't answered my question! Can you?

[Guest]

So, Rich, how do YOU KNOW that the words of Jesus to which you only subscribe to, were recorded accurately, or even not just fables?

YEAH! How do you know Rich?