Was Jesus Christ Born With a Sinful Nature like me?

[Sonny]

There was also no sin in Him because the sin principle was not in his "members", ....

Au contraire ....

Where did Christ defeat sin?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin [where?] in the flesh:

Christ defeated sin in the flesh in two ways:

1] He never gave His mind over to the selfish desires of the nature, not even for a moment.

2] He took that nature to the grave never to surface up again. Sunday morning Christ was raised with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin.

[miz3]

To all,

It seems a lot has gone under the bridge since my last post on this topic or some of the other topics.

It has been a crazy last couple of days for me. Busy, busy, busy! I can hardly keep up. Well I guess I haven't kept up. I will try and catch up so that I can answer Dr. Rich and his response to my post.

In the next post I will deal with the nature of "proof" which Dr. Rich seems I cannot do while he can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sonny]

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[wayfinder]

Try to prove this not using Pauline theology!

[Sonny]

Try to prove this not using Pauline theology!

Okay

James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?

Matt 15:16 Jesus said, "Don't you understand yet? 17 Don't you know that whatever goes into the mouth goes into the stomach and then into a toilet? 18 But whatever goes out of the mouth comes from within, and that's what makes a person unclean.

mark 7:21 Evil thoughts, sexual sins, stealing, murder, 22 adultery, greed, wickedness, cheating, shameless lust, envy, cursing, arrogance, and foolishness come from within a person. 23 All these evils come from within and make a person unclean."

Again, your nature is sin in itself.....

Now Paul:

Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me; that is, nothing good lives in my corrupt nature.

[John317]

Key text for complete understanding the truth: John 14:26 where Jesus is only talking to His disciples and tells them that the Holy Spirit will cause them to remember EVERYTHING that Jesus said.

Another key text is John 17:17-20 where Jesus is praying for those of US who reads the words from the eyewitnesses and undertand them and obey them.

How can you be absolutely certain that Jesus said those very words? Do you believe that someone was standing close by as He prayed and wrote the words down? Or do you have faith that the Holy Spirit helped the disciple to remember everything Jesus said?

You probably realize that there are many scholars-- the same as those who reject 2 Peter--- who don't believe John wrote much of the Gospel named after Him. They are the same ones who also believe the book of Revelation was written by another "John."

[Sonny]

James 4:1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[wayfinder]

John 15:22 NAS

"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24 NAS

"If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin ; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

Matthew 23:26 NAS

"You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

Genesis 4:7 NAS

"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door ; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

Ezekiel 28:15 NAS

"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

Revelation 14:5 NAS

And no lie was found in their mouth ; they are blameless.

If we have sin in our members it is because we put it there, not because we were born with it and cannot get rid of it. Jesus was telling the Pharisees that uncleanness does not come from eating with unwashed hands. uncleanness is a state of being which one chooses to be and the evidence of this is what comes out of the mouth of an unclean heart. And the text from James is concerning the members(congregants) of the assembly.

So you did not prove anything with your texts.

[miz3]

Dr. Rich said:

Quote:

"miz3, Prove that it was God who preserved the writings of Hebrews! You can't. It is only your opinion. A good researcher establishes the source of his evidence. No one knows who wrote Hebrews therefore one can't say if it was inspired by God much less preserved by God to be placed into the the NT. You might as well be using the Qu'ran to answer this question. The Qu'ran has Jesus just being a human prophet. Therefore, to answer this question truthfuly, check out your source first.

Rev. 5 prove that only Jesus could open the book with the seven seals. Only Jesus was both the Son of God and the son of man. But again, no where can one find that Jesus took on the so called "sinful nature of man"."

1. The fact that no one knows who wrote the Book of Hebrews does not discount that it was inspired. We do not have to know the human author. God of course is the real author of all that is inspired because inspiration comes only from Him. The human authorship is neither a proof of its inspiration nor a proof that it is not inspired.

2. Your requirement that a "good researcher" establishes their source of evidence. I will add to that requirement that a "good researcher" also knows which evidence is credible and which is not credible.

My first point is: After seeing so far what you have written you are hardly the one to be lecturing me or anyone else on the subject of research and evidence. You are so chaotic and off the wall it is difficult at best to have a reasonable conversation with you much less expect you to follow coherent thought. However, in saying this I have not yet answered your question on proof.

3. Dr. Rich can you prove that the sun (not son) will "rise" (in quotes so as to avoid a technical discussion about what sunrise actually means)[Are you still with me Dr. Rich?] tomorrow. No! Of course you can't. That doesn't mean that it won't or that we humans should expect it to not rise. We can't prove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! However, we all expect it to "rise". As someone else earlier wrote: "We know by FAITH!!!!!

We could instead of FAITH have also used the words TRUST and/or BELIEVE!!!!!!

Again, as someone else asked of you, Dr. Rich, can you PROVE that the parts of the Bible you do accept as inspired are really inspired and really written by the ones who say they wrote those words?

Of course you can't, Dr. Rich!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe your "PROOF" slip is showing.

Dr. Rich can you PROVE how humanity and the rest of what we see as here got here?

Wow if you could that you would be the most famous person ever! Of course we all know that you can't do that. Neither can anyone else do it either!!!!

You see there are only three possibilities!

One: A God creator (take your pick depending on culture or belief) made everything.

Two: It just happened (take your pick here of any of the cazillions of theories).

Three: Some other possibility not covered in one and two that we are not aware of.

No it is not possible to prove any of those three are or are not TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course we all should know that one of those three possibilities had to occur. Yet we cannot prove anyone of those possibilities.

Every person who asserts one of those three conjectures and states that, that possibility is True does so by, oh my, FAITH, TRUST, AND BELIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That includes you Dr. Rich. So for you to ask me to PROVE my assertions about Hebrews is silly and stupid just as it is silly and stupid to require PROOF of one of those three conjectures.

I believe the whole canon from Genesis to Revelation is the inspired Word of God. You, Dr. Rich, clearly believe something else. Regardless, you accept by FAITH you basis for authority and I accept by FAITH my basis for authority.

This is the nature of PROOF in our world. Unless you and I can agree on what the AUTHORITY IS neither one of us can prove a single thing.

It is all about who our AUTHORITY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am shocked that one with your background of education is not aware of this concept.

That is why I keep posing my questions by saying "show me from the Bible and the Bible only". In doing this I am setting the Bible and the Bible only as the AUTHORITY.

Now you may think there are other authorities just as valid, or maybe you think my authority is not valid. Regardless of others pecking order of authority, my questions are posed with this in mind. Others are free to disagree and they do. Others are free to insert their other authorities and make judgments about whose authority is better or best and they do. Again, regardless of all this every human, I assume that you and I fit in this category, asserts their authority by FAITH!!!!

I hope this mini-lesson has been helpful to you, Dr. Rich?

[John317]

Christ took the post-fall body of Adam, but had the untainted moral nature of the pre-fallen Adam.

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God." 13Mr 1002

"He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity." FLB cH 2.

The quotes are all good. I'm not suggesting that Jesus sinned or that He had evil propensities.

All I'm saying is that He assumed the same fallen nature as His mother had and that He was not exempt from the great law of heredity. That is, through His mother, Christ was "made like unto His brethren" in all things, the same brethren who He came to save. He was tempted in every way that fallen humans are tempted.

Quote:

Christ lived in this world from infancy to manhood, and during that time He met and resisted all the temptations by which man is beset. He is a perfect pattern of childhood, of youth, of manhood. {FLB 219.4}

He wasn't beset by the temptations that Adam had to deal with but with those temptations that fallen men must deal with.

Quote:

Christ saw man's fearful danger, and He determined to save him by the sacrifice of Himself. That He might accomplish His purpose of love for the fallen race, He became bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. "As the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." {ST, September 24, 1902 par. 2}

Christ, of course, took on Him the seed of Abraham, all of whom had fallen natures.

[miz3]

John317,

There are not "TEMPTATIONS"!!!

There is only "ONE TEMPTATION"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There be many vehicles through which this ONE TEMPTATION comes to us but there is only ONE TEMPTATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone gets that ONE TEMPTATION! No exceptions, ever!!!!!

[John317]

You'll notice that the temptations in the wilderness were based on different principles. Jesus was tempted in many different ways, not only one way. He was tempted in principle every way that fallen man is tempted.

Quote:

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith [fallen] man is beset. He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit dwelt in a temple of flesh. He united Himself with the temple. "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us," because by so doing He could associate with the sinful, sorrowing sons and daughters of Adam (YI Dec. 20, 1900). {4BC 1147.4}

What if I told you that even though Hebrews 4: 15 mentions more than one human weakness, there is really only one human weakness? Would you believe me? Probably not, right?

That's the same problem I'm having with what you are claiming. You claim there is only one temptation, but both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy tell us that there are at least 3 major points, or principles, of temptation. (See Matthew 4: 1-11; cf 1 John 2: 16) Our great High Priest was in all ways tempted just as we are, yet without sin. He didn't yield to the tempter, but He was most certainly tempted in more than one way to sin. Heb. 4: 15.

[Overaged]

The title is the question.

Some say Jesus Christ was born with a sinful nature like you and I.

Others say Jesus Christ was born with a Sinless Nature like Adam.

Which is it?

Jesus was born with both natures - the human mysteriously blended with the divine. But He lived and died, using only His human nature. That's in the Bible.

[Overaged]

John317,

There are not "TEMPTATIONS"!!!

There is only "ONE TEMPTATION"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There be many vehicles through which this ONE TEMPTATION comes to us but there is only ONE TEMPTATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone gets that ONE TEMPTATION! No exceptions, ever!!!!!

Hmmm; I had 7 or 8 temptations, just yesterday - alone!

[Gerr]

Hmmm; I had 7 or 8 temptations, just yesterday - alone!

Yeah, but there is a common denominator: cling to God or go it alone.

[Overaged]

Now I have another one.

[Overaged]

quote=miz3]The title is the question.

Some say Jesus Christ was born with a sinful nature like you and I.

Others say Jesus Christ was born with a Sinless Nature like Adam.

Which is it?

Jesus was born with both natures - the human mysteriously blended with the divine. But He lived and died, using only His human nature. That's in the Bible.

[Gerr]

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

"Fullness" of holiness would not have been in Him if He had the principle of sin (sinful nature) dwelling in Him.

[Sonny]

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

"Fullness" of holiness would not have been in Him if He had the principle of sin (sinful nature) dwelling in Him.

Gerry, as the Son of man Christ became what He was not as God - sin. He was made sin. Was God joking? If not God had no legal right to abandoned our humanity that Christ assumed. You see the law doesn't curse the sinless, but the sinful.

[Gerr]

When was He made to be sin for us? At conception? Or at the Cross?

[Sonny]

When was He made to be sin for us? At conception? Or at the Cross?

At conception the Son of God (who is sinless) clothed His Deity with our humanity in the womb of Mary. The result? The Son of Man.

As the Son of Man, Christ linked Himself to our condemned humanity. That's what Gal 4:4 states. A.T. Jones taught this...read his work:

Read me!

[miz3]

To all,

It appears to me from the Bible that Jesus Christ was"

FULLY GOD AND FULLY HUMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

How these two clearly divergent entities blended into ONE ENTITY is clear evidence of God's unbounded power and abilities. It is called "THE UNION OF THE DIVINE AND THE HUMAN".

Jesus Christ in so being showed us what we may become when by the Holy Spirit (just as the Holy Spirit conceived in Mary without the use of the human egg and the human sperm) we are changed (Sanctified).

No one knows how two clearly divergent entities (like water and oil) can exist both as clearly separate entities while at the same time being combined into a single unique entity.

To illustrate, it would be like water and oil which cannot mix becoming a new single entity when mixed and cannot be made separable yet at the same time the separate entities are clearly seen in their divergent state. Thus they are at the same moment a unique mix that does not show either the oil as oil or the water as water but again at that same moment the water and the oil can be in there own separate unique form.

You might say this is impossible!!!!!!!!!!!!! You might say this makes no sense and cannot exist!!!!! In human spheres this would be true but we are now in God's sphere!

In the realm of human power such is the case that such a thing is impossible. However with God:

ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!!!!!

Like the water and oil illustration: The union of the Divine with Human reveals the Human entity as it singularly is and the Divine entity as it singularly is; while at the very same moment the union of the two entities creates a completely new entity with singularity that is neither human nor Divine but as the Bible states "a new creation"!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus Christ was the "first fruits" of this new Creation by God.

Isn't it wonderful what God can do for us. We cannot do it but GOD CAN!!!!!!!

[John317]

You might say this is impossible!!!!!!!!!!!!! You might say this makes no sense and cannot exist!!!!! In human spheres this would be true but we are now in God's sphere!

...Isn't it wonderful what God can do for us. We cannot do it but GOD CAN!!!!!!!

All things that God wills to do, He can do. But if we mean that God can do all things imaginable, then it is not true. God cannot do all things that we can imagine. He can only do what is in accordance to His character of love and righteousness.

[Overaged]

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

"Fullness" of holiness would not have been in Him if He had the principle of sin (sinful nature) dwelling in Him.

Jesus was also "made of a woman." He had BOTH natures.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Gal 4:4 is talking about before the cross.

[Flyboy]

If Jesus were fully God and fully human, then he wasn't fully human, because no human has ANY God. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All except One, Christ. Thus, logically, Christ was not a person, he was helped by his Heavenly Father, he knew this when he was 12.

The answer to this question seems very clear. No possible way that he was fully human. But, to me this is comforting because it means that no being that is completely man is sinless, and therefore I don't feel so bad when I keep failing. Of course I feel bad, but I don't feel as though perfection is possible, only that I can look to Jesus to make myself a better person.