Was Jesus Christ Born With a Sinful Nature like me?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

It is also clear from Mt & Lk that unlike the children of Adam He was conceived through the power of the HS, therefore the above statement has to allow for some exceptions. Yes, Jesus felt pain, hunger, distress, required sleep, got hungry, felt the need for human companship just like every child of Adam.

Do you believe Christ took our fallen human nature?

I already stated my position: Christ took the post-fall body of Adam, but had the untainted moral nature of the pre-fallen Adam.

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God." 13Mr 1002

"He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity." FLB cH 2.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Gerry C, I am glad you asked the question on how do I know what the eyewitnesses of Jesus can be trusted to write what they remembered.

Key text for complete understanding the truth: John 14:26 where Jesus is only talking to His disciples and tells them that the Holy Spirit will cause them to remember EVERYTHING that Jesus said.

Another key text is John 17:17-20 where Jesus is praying for those of US who reads the words from the eyewitnesses and undertand them and obey them.

Here is the thing: If you were to trust in the whole bible as the word of God and therefore believed in what Paul wrote about the law being done away with (yes, I know he said the opposite too), and believing that you become righteous because of your faith and are saved by grace, then Jesus couldn't find you guilty for not knowing the truth. God did not keep out what Satan sowed in the NT after Jesus was here on this earth. See Matthew 7:24-27 and 13:24-30.

[Guest]

Key text for complete understanding the truth: John 14:26 where Jesus is only talking to His disciples and tells them that the Holy Spirit will cause them to remember EVERYTHING that Jesus said.

You're missing the whole point Rich. The question was "how do you know he said it?" You can't just say: "Well, because he said X, or Y". Reading where he said X or Y doesn't prove that he actually said any of it? And that was the question: How do you know he said ANY of it???!!

Don't sidestep the question, the fact is, you DON'T know, and you CAN'T prove any of it. The only way you can believe that Jesus said those things is through faith. The very thing you tell people they don't need.

[Guest]

And you have to have more proof than just telling me to read something written in the Bible, of all things. You know that whole book can't be trusted. I don't see how you trust any of it.

Oh wait a minute, yes I do......Faith. It takes faith even to believe the small portions of scriptures you believe.

PS. And WHAT you believe about the ones you do, takes a whole lot more than just a little bit of faith. In fact I believe you have more faith than all the rest of us put together.

[Sonny]

In Christ

where?

In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature.

What type of human/creature?

The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man. [LHU 346]

In Christ the nature of God and the nature of Adam, the sinner, meet in Jesus. Very clear!

[Sonny]

By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself....

What type of humanity?

To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption. [s.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, Page 927]

[Sonny]

“He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature.” Ministry of Healing, p.181

This is a very, very clear sentence. Christ is God...He has always been God and remained God when in clothed His Divinity with our fallen humanity. Notice how careful Ellen White is when she says "OUR sinful nature"! It wasn't Christ's sinful nature because as God He didn't have a sinful nature, but in adopting our fallen life for thirty something years Christ as God took OUR sinful nature upon Himself.

[Woody]

“He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature.” Ministry of Healing, p.181

Is having a sinful nature ... a sin?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

“He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature.” Ministry of Healing, p.181

Is having a sinful nature ... a sin?

Yes....

Keep in mind that OUR sinful nature wasn't His. It was ours, but because the man, Jesus Christ, took our sinful nature He associated Himself with our condemnation. In other words the humanity the Son of man associated Himself with brought instant condemnation, not because as the Son of Man He sinned, but because He took our sinful nature.

Gal 4;4 But when the fulness of the time was come , God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law....

Who did He come to redeem? Those under the curse. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us" [Gal 3:13]

[Woody]

thanks Sonny. That helps to make it clear.

[wayfinder]

There is no such thing as a sinful nature, there is sin and there is virtue, righteous and unrighteous, black and white.

Exodus 12:3 "Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers' households, a lamb for each household.

4 'Now if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his neighbor nearest to his house are to take one according to the number of persons in them; according to what each man should eat, you are to divide the lamb.

5 'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old ; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.

Jesus was the Passover Lamb. The Passover lamb was to be unblemished and no "sin" was to be confessed on or transfered to this lamb.

If you cn find where Jesus or the Father said that we have a sinful nature then I will accept that, but anyone else has no authority with me.

[Gerr]

“He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature.” Ministry of Healing, p.181

She also said this:

I already stated my position: Christ took the post-fall body of Adam, but had the untainted moral nature of the pre-fallen Adam.

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God." 13Mr 1002

"He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity." FLB cH 2.

So was she contradicting herself? Or to reconcile the two, take the position as I have taken?

As I have already pointed out, if Jesus had the sin principle in His body, He would have need a Saviour himself!!! But at the Cross, He did take our sinful nature, NAY, He was made the very personification of sin itself, so that all could be absolved of their guilt!

[Sonny]

So was she contradicting herself? Or to reconcile the two, take the position as I have taken?

As I have already pointed out, if Jesus had the sin principle in His body, He would have need a Saviour himself!!!

Jesus, as God, never had sin in Him. Yet when He was made what He was not by Divine right, He became sin. In other words Jesus as a man had sin in Him, but it wasn't his...it was ours.

Keep in mind that He remained Himself, God. At the incarnation His Divinity didn't change....He remained Himself while becoming us.

You see the law requires 3 things:

1] A perfect life of obedience.

2] Death to the sin nature that resides in our humanity from Adam.

3] A glorified humanity free from all traces of sin.

All 3 of these Christ accomplished.

a] He obeyed the law perfectly...He never sinned, not even by a thought.

b] On the cross Christ, as one of us, took the curse - which is God abandonment - i.e., no hope of a resurrection. Christ's assumed humanity (that which He assumed for 30 + years) died eternally....That old life never came up.

c] Christ, as a man, was raised with a glorified humanity free from all traces of sin. His Deity is clothed with this sinless, immortal humanity. He presents us, in Himself, before God and His law by faith.

[wayfinder]

1 John 3:5 NAS

You know that He appeared in order to take away sins ; and in Him there is no sin

1 John 3:8,9 NAS

the one who practices sin is of the devil ; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

These statements would not, could not be true, if we or Christ, had a "sinful nature".

[Sonny]

There is no such thing as a sinful nature, there is sin and there is virtue, righteous and unrighteous, black and white.

Wrong!

[Sonny]

1 John 3:5 NAS You know that He appeared in order to take away sins ; and in Him there is no sin

Context - it means He never sinned

[John317]

1 John 3:8,9 NAS

the one who practices sin is of the devil ; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

These statements would not, could not be true, if we or Christ, had a "sinful nature".

Those verses are talking about continuing to practice sin. It doesn't mean believers never commit a sin or that they never have to confess to God that they sinned. We will have sinful natures until Christ returns or until the resurrection.Having a sinful nature doesn't mean we have to sin-- it only means we will be capable of sinning and of making error.

1 John 3: 8-9 does not contradict 1 John 1: 8-10.

[8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[wayfinder]

John says "in Him there is no sin, not was no sin. If He took our sin in Him He would have sin in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NAS

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus was the Passover Lamb and as such was without spot or blemish and did not take the sin on Him or in Him and did not become sin nor was He made sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

“He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature.” Ministry of Healing, p.181

Is having a sinful nature ... a sin?

Nowhere are we told that we will be answerable to God in the judgment for merely having a sinful nature, apart from anything we've done or said or thought. Nor are we ever told that we should pray to God and ask forgiveness for merely being a human being. We are only to confess sins that we commit (whether intenionally or not) or that we have had in our heart.

[Sonny]

Nowhere are we told that we will be answerable to God in the judgment for merely having a sinful nature, apart from anything we've done or said or thought. Nor are we ever told that we should pray to God and ask forgiveness for merely being a human being. We are only to confess sins that we commit (whether intenionally or not) or that we have had in our heart.

The humanity that Christ assumed had to die. It came from a condemned humanity because of the fall.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world [the human race] through one man [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned...

Where? In Adam!

Sin is not only the transgression of the law. Paul defined the sin nature as "sin living in me" (Romans 7:16). Sin, iniquity, is our bent to self. Transgression is sin against the moral law.

Iniquity:

Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

Transgression:

This word means a deliberate violation of the law, or willful disobedience. Transgression pre-supposes that one has the knowledge of the law. In the spiritual realm, transgression is the violation of the moral law, or ten commandments of God [see 1 John 3:4]. A knowledge of God’s law makes sin to be “transgression.”

[Sonny]

Nor are we ever told that we should pray to God and ask forgiveness for merely being a human being.

Being human is equated with being sinful. We are sinful by birth, before we commit an act of outward sin. We stand condemned because we have a humanity that is polluted with "self". If not, then

1] Why can't we take our natures to heaven with us?

2] Why did Christ leave our life from Adam in the grave? In other words why was He raised without indwelling sin?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Nor are we ever told that we should pray to God and ask forgiveness for merely being a human being.

Being human is equated with being sinful. We are sinful by birth, before we commit an act of outward sin. We stand condemned because we have a humanity that is polluted with "self". If not, then

1] Why can't we take our natures to heaven with us?

2] Why did Christ leave our life from Adam in the grave? In other words why was He raised without indwelling sin?

Interesting. U know ... a baby that dies before it can knowingly sin ... is not necessarily saved.

[Sonny]

Interesting. U know ... a baby that dies before it can knowingly sin ... is not necessarily saved.

Babies (which all of us were) are born bent to self. Simply stated they are selfish. Place two toddlers on the floor and give one a toy and the other nothing. You can't have any other distractions. What happens?

Click here for video

What this demonstrates is our love of self. It's self-seeking...self-interest, etc. Agape, on the other hand, has no self in it.

We have natures that are anti-agape. Without Christ suppressing our natures all we do outwardly are for self-centered motives. The act maybe look like genuine righteousness, but what's the motive? Again, without Christ all we do is so we can get something in return.

So the flesh can look all righteous on the outside, why? To get what it wants.....

That's how rotten human nature is. So by nature, we are objects of wrath.

Now legally you can't hold a baby responsible for transgression (were there is no law there is no transgression), however babies are children of Adam and as such they stand condemned. Again, not for sinning (because they don't know what sin is), but because they have fallen human lives.

I personally believe that all babies who die before they can reason are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago, but I don't want to get into that argument with anyone.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

There is no such thing as a sinful nature, there is sin and there is virtue, righteous and unrighteous, black and white.

Wrong!

Hmmmm. We are agreed about something.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

1 John 3:5 NAS You know that He appeared in order to take away sins ; and in Him there is no sin

Context - it means He never sinned

Not only was there no sin in Him because He did not sin. There was also no sin in Him because the sin principle was not in his "members", hence the sinful nature, i.e. the nature that already had the inclination/propensity to do wrong.