Was Jesus Christ Born With a Sinful Nature like me?

[Sonny]

Where does the Bible teach #3?

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law....

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law (see verse 5 above) by becoming a curse....

What does it mean to be "under law" in Gal 4:4? Clearly Gal 3:3 answers this: It means to be under the curse of the law.

How could Christ, as one of us, be under the curse? Did He ever sin? No, not even by a thought! So what came under the curse when Christ was "made of a woman"? Fallen human nature.

Paul calls our fallen human nature "sin living in me". He also states that "flesh (Greek, Sarx) and blood can't enter the kingdom of heaven." Ellen White states that "when human beings receive holy flesh [our humanity minus the sin nature], they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"(Phil. 3:21). . . .[2SM 32, 33]

So when Christ assumed our fallen humanity He came under the curse of the law because the law doesn't just condemn transgression, it condemns the source of sin, i.e., sinful fallen, human nature.

[Sonny]

He did this in order to suffer temptation so that He would be able to help those who are tempted.

True, but that's a secondary reason. Primarily Jesus came to save us from "the curse of the law". Then, secondarily, He united Himself to our humanity to be able to help us with temptation.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

We died to the law in the body of Christ. Paul discusses this in Romans 6:6, 7:4. When we accept our death to the law in the humanity of Christ we move from under the curse. No longer are we terrified being under law. Now we are able to experience "the newness of the Spirit" which brings us into harmony with the principle of God's agape.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

As the Son of God He was holy....As the Son of Man - as a child of Adam - he was sinful by nature (not transgression)

I like your response better than mine Sonny.

But it's wrong. Every child of Adam who has/had his sinful nature is/were, "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." Eph 2:3 ESV. Had He been a "child of wrath", then as I said previously, He would have need a Saviour Himself.

[Sonny]

But it's wrong. Every child of Adam who has/had his sinful nature is/were, "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." Eph 2:3 ESV. Had He been a "child of wrath", then as I said previously, He would have need a Saviour Himself.

Keep in mind Jesus is God. He has always been God and will always be God. At the incarnation God the Father took Christ's Deity and clothed it with our humanity. By implication Christ as the Son of Man (not the Son of God - i.e., Deity) was "made sin".

2 Cor 5:21 is very clear: "For He [God the Father] made Him [Jesus as God] who knew no sin to be sin [as the Son of Man] for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[Sonny]

Had He been a "child of wrath", then as I said previously, He would have need a Saviour Himself.

Gal 3:12 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us....

Jesus, as the Son of Man, became sin and therefore came under the curse of the law. Again, not for sinning, but because as the Son of Man He took our humanity in it's fallen condition.

[Sonny]

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin [not sins, but the essence of sin - the sin nature] entered into the world [the human race], and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned [Where? In Adam]

Why does Paul say "all sinned" through Adam.

Adam's sin was a corporate sin. In the place of agape, iniquity took root. His agape love became bent back to himself. Because humanity resided seminally in his loins, Adam's sin polluted humanity. His life polluted our lives with this bent to self (the sin nature). Hence we were born sinful.

At birth our minds were in complete harmony with our bent to self (our natures). Hence we were born slaves to our natures. Jesus was born of the Spirit meaning that His mind was never enslaved to the nature which He assumed for thirty something years. Yet because He took our humanity in it's fallen state He came under the curse.

[Sonny]

Made under the law by AT Jones

[teresaq]

...

In regards to number one above Jesus Christ was like you and me. In regards to number two above Jesus Christ was like Adam before the fall.

I think the difficulty for some is realizing that Adam was tempted and fell, even with a perfect nature. We also need to realize how hard it would have been for Adam if he had not sinned to be placed in Christ's place and suffer all that Christ suffered without once failing.

Christ understood how hard it is for us because He became human--that was enough. But more than that He and the Father understood before Christ became one of us--that is why Christ became one of us.

[Gerr]

2 Cor 5:21 is very clear: "For He [God the Father] made Him [Jesus as God] who knew no sin to be sin [as the Son of Man] for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

God could not have made Christ to be sin for us if He was already born with the principle of sin in Him. It is precisely because He was born without the principle of sin in his body parts ("members") and lived a sinless life (sacrificial lamb WITHOUT BLEMISH), that God could make Him to be sin for us.

[fccool]

The title is the question.

Some say Jesus Christ was born with a sinful nature like you and I.

Others say Jesus Christ was born with a Sinless Nature like Adam.

Which is it?

You can't be born with a sinful nature. You can be born into a sinful nature. If sin is something that you do/think, how can you born into it's "nature" without actually doing anything?

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But it's wrong. Every child of Adam who has/had his sinful nature is/were, "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." Eph 2:3 ESV. Had He been a "child of wrath", then as I said previously, He would have need a Saviour Himself.

Keep in mind Jesus is God. He has always been God and will always be God. At the incarnation God the Father took Christ's Deity and clothed it with our humanity. By implication Christ as the Son of Man (not the Son of God - i.e., Deity) was "made sin".

2 Cor 5:21 is very clear: "For He [God the Father] made Him [Jesus as God] who knew no sin to be sin [as the Son of Man] for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus never said that he is God. He always said that He is the Son of God. And he always referred to God as his Father. He never referred to God as a "unity of three co-eternal persons"

[John317]

Jesus never said that he is God. He always said that He is the Son of God. And he always referred to God as his Father. He never referred to God as a "unity of three co-eternal persons"

Of course Jesus did not tell people that He was God. He walked the earth as a man, not as God. He was totally dependent upon His God, the Father, and on the Holy Spirit and the angels.

But the inspired word of God tells us that He is God. So does Ellen White. Do you believe that Ellen White was a prophet of God? I understood you to be an SDA, but maybe not.

There is no contradiction between saying that Christ is the Son of God and that He is God.

Consider the following verses of Scripture:

God the Father calls Jesus Christ "God" in Hebrews 1: 8:

Hebrews 1:8

But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

In Hebrews 1: 10, it shows that it was Jesus Christ who is called "Adonai" and "kurios" (Yahweh) in Ps. 102. It says that it was Christ who laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the work of Christ's hands. This means that Gen. 1: 1 is speaking of both Christ and the Father as the One God who made the heavens and the earth. Gen. 1: 2 shows that the Holy Spirit was also there at that time.

Hebrews 1:10

And,

"You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,

and the heavens are the work of your hands;

John 1: 1 refers to Christ as God:

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In John 20: 28, Thomas recognized that Jesus Christ is God:

John 20:28

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Romans 9: 5 says that Christ is God:

Romans 9:5

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Col. 2: 9 reveals that Christ is God, or deity:

Col. 2:9

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

KJV--Col. 2:9

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Titus 2: 13 refers to Christ as "our great God":

Titus 2:13

waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1: 1 refers to Christ as "Our God and Savior":

2 Peter 1:1

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 1: 3 reveals that Christ is the "exact picture of God's real being," or "the perfect copy of God's being, or person," and that Christ upholds the whole universe by the word of His power:

Hebrews 1:3

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Isaiah 9: 6 predicted that that the Messiah to be born at Bethlehem would be the "Mighty God," a title used of Jehovah in Isaiah 10: 21:

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born,

to us a son is given;

and the government shall be upon his shoulder,

and his name shall be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

CONCLUSION: The Holy Bible proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Chirst our Lord and Savior is indeed God.

[John317]

I like both of your posts here, Sonny.

[John317]

Jesus never said that he is God. He always said that He is the Son of God. And he always referred to God as his Father. He never referred to God as a "unity of three co-eternal persons"

Christ has many names and titles: the word of God; the Son of man; Son of David; Root of David; the Alpha and the Omega; the Lamb of God; King of kings and Lord of lords; the offspring of David," etc. He is called also "the door," "water of life," the "Light of the world," etc.

Is Christ literally water or the Lamb of God? Obviously not. So what is the meaning of these names?

Is Christ literally the Son of God in the way that humans are sons of their fathers? No.

Christians who have the Holy Spirit are also called "sons of God" or "children of God." Does that mean they are literally "sons" of God? No. We becomes sons of God through faith in Christ.

What, then, does "the Son of God" mean in refereicne to Christ?

1 Kings 20: 35 refers to the "the sons of the prophets." Were they literally the sons of the prophets? No.

Neh. 12: 28 refers to the "sons of the singers." Why?

The title "Son of" or "sons of" means "of the order of." Thus, to be called "the sons of the prophets" means "of the order of the prophets."

The title "sons of the singers," then, meant "of the order of the singers."

Similarly, when Christ is called "the Son of God," it has reference to the fact that Christ is on an equality with God.

The Jews recognized this when Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.

John 5:18

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 19:7

The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God."

The Bible itself often calls Christ "God." See John 1: 1 and John 20: 28 for two examples. See my previous post for many more examples of such texts. Thereforre, there is absolutely no contradiction between saying Christ is "the Son of God" and that He is God. The Bible says both things about Christ.

[miz3]

Gerry,

I like you take on this issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Woody]

Gerry,

I like you take on this issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are just that ... GERRY's Takes. And they can 'take' you to places unknown.

[Gerr]

Gal 3:12 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us....

Jesus, as the Son of Man, became sin and therefore came under the curse of the law. Again, not for sinning, but because as the Son of Man He took our humanity in it's fallen condition.

So then, when did Jesus become "sin for us"? At conception? Or at the Cross?

[miz3]

My Dear Woody,

I didn't say I like all of Gerry's takes. I just said I like this particular one!

[Dr. Waite]

I still stand by my statement that Jesus Christ never stated that he is GOD. I DID NOT state that other persons DID NOT state that Jesus Christ is God by nature. Jesus Christ always referred to GOD as his Father and he referred to his Father as the "only true God"

In regard to Ellen White, she never said that Jesus Christ is 100% God in the same respect that the Father is GOD. He is not GOD in personality.

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is truly God in infinity, but not in personality. He has wrought out the righteousness that enables human beings to overcome every assault of Satan. He will impute His righteousness to the believing saint who walks as He walked when on earth. {UL 367.4}"

[Gerr]

miz3:

Gerry,

I like you take on this issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Woody:

They are just that ... GERRY's Takes. And they can 'take' you to places unknown.

Ah, but I try to make no claims without Scriptural basis. I don't have a "Gerry's Revisionist Bible Version." :)

[Woody]

My Dear Woody,

I didn't say I like all of Gerry's takes. I just said I like this particular one!

Oh. That's much better. I didn't realize that. I'm comforted by that. For I like to stick with scripture and I was hoping you would be like that also.

[John317]

You can't be born with a sinful nature. You can be born into a sinful nature. If sin is something that you do/think, how can you born into it's "nature" without actually doing anything?

Perhaps you are talking about "character" rather than "nature." Those are two different things. Character is built upon choices and is revealed by our actions, but "nature" is not.

We are born with the same nature as our parents. Our parents have a sinful nature. Adam had a sinful nature and therefore his children were born with sinful natures. Our nature doesn't depend on our action any more than we have to wait until a dog does something before we know it has a dog's nature-- that is, the same nature as its parents.

Jesus was born with the same nature as his mother, Mary, which was a fallen nature, the same as that of Abraham and David, yet He also had the nature of His heavenly Father. So Christ was both God and man. His human nature was fallen, the same as His mother's. But since He was also God and was holy from conception, having been born of the Holy Spirit, His fallen nature was not exactly the same as ours. He experienced temptation like we do, but Christ never had to overcome evil, sinful habits. We have to be born again, of the Spirit, but Christ was always born of the Holy Spirit. So there were some important differences between Christ's human nature and our human nature.

[Gerr]

To my view:

1. Jesus Christ inherited the outer sinful flesh. Thus, Jesus Christ got thirsty, got hungry, got tired, His skin would get bruised and even bleed, etc.

2. The inner part was like Adam before the fall. His nature was uncorrupted and sinless like Adam before the fall. Thus Jesus Christ had a "sinless nature".

In regards to number one above Jesus Christ was like you and me. In regards to number two above Jesus Christ was like Adam before the fall.

That is my position.

[miz3]

Woody,

Thank you. We are on same page then because I believe in Scripture as the only TRUMP CARD!

[Woody]

Woody,

Thank you. We are on same page then because I believe in Scripture as the only TRUMP CARD!

I like your wording of that and will not try to 'Trump' it.