Was Jesus Christ Born With a Sinful Nature like me?

[miz3]

Don't get all excited Dr. Rich, I still think you are an extremely confused person with many great problems, probably too numerous to list.

However,

"Was Jesus born with a sinful nature? Of course not! There was nothing sinful about Jesus Christ!"

your quote above is correct. Remember I am limiting the correctness to just this quote.

[Flyboy]

Don't get all excited Dr. Rich, I still think you are an extremely confused person with many great problems, probably too numerous to list.

Hmm... Was miz3 born with a sinful nature just like Dr. Rich?

[Flyboy]

Having sinned in the past does preclude being perfect in the future.

Samson was perfect, when blind and captive he prayed for the strength to bring down columns. The thief on the cross was also perfect. However both of those examples pertain to the last minutes of a dieing mans confession and acceptance of perfection by faith and grace.

Perfection is possible in our everyday life as we go through our daily process', by faith and grace it is accounted to us. IF we choose to accept it, or, we can and often do, chose our own path. Usually accompanied by the thought, "Perfection is impossible, so why bother". It's not impossible.

There is no Biblical evidence to support any statement that a man can be perfect. The Bible is clear, it can be no clearer. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. How is it possible to argue with this statement?

Sure, I can be perfect for five or ten minutes in every day, heck, maybe even for five or ten hours, but my *life* is not one of perfection, thus the need for Christ. You say that people will give up when they say "Perfection is impossible, so why bother". Any true seeker of goodness, of Christ, would not have that attitude. Instead they would say "Perfection is impossible, that is why I need Christ". Anyone who would say "so why bother?" isn't going to really put forward the effort anyway.

[Gary K]

I haven't read this entire thread, so I don't know if anyone has posted the following quote. If anyone has, well, sorry for bringing this up again but it is, to me, the most definitive quote I've seen on the issue.

Quote:

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 5:1128.

Jesus could never be the second Adam if He was born with a sinful nature, as the first Adam was not created with a sinful nature.

To me this issue always brings up the question: Is having a propensity to sin the same thing as sinning? I say no. Why? Because having a propensity for some behavior is not the same as indulging that behavior. They are two separate things. For example, having the propensity to lose my temper is not the same thing as losing my temper. The first makes it easier for me to lose my temper than for someone who does not have the same propensity. The second is the actual act of losing my temper. Am I somehow more guilty of losing my temper than the person who does not have that propensity, if/when we both lose our tempers? Of course not. Thus propensity has nothing to do with actual guilt of sin. Therefore, having a propensity for sin is not sinning.

This goes along with the question as to whether being tempted is sin. No it isn't. If being tempted to sin is sinning, then Jesus sinned as He was tempted in all points that we are. Thus, once again, a propensity to sin, which is nothing more than being easily tempted into sin because it appeals to you, is not sinning. Only the act of giving into our propensities and our temptations, whatever they may be, is sin.

[Gary K]

There is no Biblical evidence to support any statement that a man can be perfect. The Bible is clear, it can be no clearer. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. How is it possible to argue with this statement?

Really? Jesus said, be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Was Jesus instructing us to do the impossible? Why would He do that? Just to play head games with us?

Ezekiel and Jeremiah both talk about having the law of God written upon our hearts and minds and about us walking--which is living--according to the law of God. IOWs, we will be keeping the law of God. If I am keeping the law of God, how am I imperfect at that moment? Because I was once imperfect in my past? That's very bad logic.

God says He will remember our sins no more, that we are new creations in Him. How is that being short of perfection just because of our past? God won't see us that way. Why should we?

You need to reread your quote from Paul. It says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The verb tense of the sentence is not present or future tense, it is past tense. The verse does not say, all will continue sinning and will always come short of the glory of God.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted By: Flyboy

There is no Biblical evidence to support any statement that a man can be perfect. The Bible is clear, it can be no clearer. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. How is it possible to argue with this statement?

Really? Jesus said, be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Was Jesus instructing us to do the impossible? Why would He do that? Just to play head games with us?

Ezekiel and Jeremiah both talk about having the law of God written upon our hearts and minds and about us walking--which is living--according to the law of God. IOWs, we will be keeping the law of God. If I am keeping the law of God, how am I imperfect at that moment? Because I was once imperfect in my past? That's very bad logic.

God says He will remember our sins no more, that we are new creations in Him. How is that being short of perfection just because of our past? God won't see us that way. Why should we?

You need to reread your quote from Paul. It says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The verb tense of the sentence is not present or future tense, it is past tense. The verse does not say, all will continue sinning and will always come short of the glory of God.

GaryK, I like both of your responses. I'm a little uncomfortable with the second one though, quoted above.

First, my interpretation of the text you cite, "be ye therefore perfect...." is not that perfection is attainable. Jesus is not giving a sermon to convince us that we can be perfect, rather he is teaching us how to strive for perfection.

Second, striving to be perfect suggests a couple of things, primarily that salvation can be attained through works, not faith. Because we have reached perfection, we are now deserving of Heaven. Of course a perfect mind would not think that way, but my imperfect mind doesn't like the implication of salvation by works, which is what it would be to an imperfect mind until the moment of perfection.

[Dr. Rich]

Great post Gary K! Why are the 144k sealed by God prior to the tribulation? It is because they have overcome sin and have become righteously perfect and will never sin again. (Rev. 14:5)

[Gary K]

GaryK, I like both of your responses. I'm a little uncomfortable with the second one though, quoted above.

First, my interpretation of the text you cite, "be ye therefore perfect...." is not that perfection is attainable. Jesus is not giving a sermon to convince us that we can be perfect, rather he is teaching us how to strive for perfection.

Second, striving to be perfect suggests a couple of things, primarily that salvation can be attained through works, not faith. Because we have reached perfection, we are now deserving of Heaven. Of course a perfect mind would not think that way, but my imperfect mind doesn't like the implication of salvation by works, which is what it would be to an imperfect mind until the moment of perfection.

Flyboy,

Thanks for the kind words.

Jesus didn't say, strive to be perfect. You're putting words into His mouth when you imply that. He said, very plainly, be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. The entire Sermon on the Mount is about what righteousness is, and how a righteous life will be lived, and this is a part of that sermon. Christ is setting forth a new standard of righteousness, an internal as well as external righteousness.

I ask you, is Jesus really setting up everone to have unreasonable expectations, and a life of frustration, if we take Him at His plain word? I don't think so. I see it the same way Ellen White does, that all of God's commands are enablings.

I do believe God wants us to be perfect, and that He has made that way possible, for we are told that "all things" are possible with God, not "all things but". However, I think that most of us go about it all wrong. We strive to be perfect, rather than striving to have a perfect relationship with God. Salvation is relational. So, all of it, life, attainable perfection, and salvation, are about our relationship with God. The quality and consistency of our relationship with Him is what determines how closely we resemble Jesus.

What was it the Bible said about Enoch? That he "walked with God" for a few hundred years, and then was not because God translated him. How many of us spend that kind of time walking with God? To me that is why we fail so miserably in reflecting Christ.

The standard isn't set too high. Our lack of constant communion with God is our point of failure. Did not Jesus say, you'll find me when you search for me with your whole heart, and that I come before anything and everbody else? How often are we really that whole-hearted in our pursuit of our relationship with God? How often does that relationship come first, last, and always in our lives? If you're honest with yourself I believe you'll have to say, not very often.

If you haven't read it, I would recommend "Thoughts from the Mount of Blessings" to you. It's a fantastic book.

[Sonny]

Quote:

"Was Jesus born with a sinful nature? Of course not! There was nothing sinful about Jesus Christ!"

Again, Jesus is God. Absolutely nothing sinful about Him, period. But while remaining Himself, He became what He was not by divine right. He was made sin. The Bible is clear. As the Son of God He was sinless, but as the Son of Man (that is, as one of us) He was made sin. This is not to imply He was a sinner - a transgressor, but that in His assumed humanity He had the principle of sin dwelling in His humanity. This humanity stands condemned due to the fall.

[BobRyan]

The title is the question.

Some say Jesus Christ was born with a sinful nature like you and I.

Others say Jesus Christ was born with a Sinless Nature like Adam.

Which is it?

Jesus was born with a fallen human nature -- physically not as strong, or tall as Adam and certainly would have aged the same in 33 years as did his peers of that day.

But Jesus had a sinless nature like Adam.

When you are in water over your head drowning - you do not want someone to drown with you -- you want someone to rescue you.

Jesus did not need a savior - we do.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Second, striving to be perfect suggests a couple of things, primarily that salvation can be attained through works, not faith.

In Romans 8:5-7 Paul says that only the lost are in a condition where they actually cannot keep the Law of God.

In Romans 6 Paul makes a good case that if you claim you must sin then you are the servant of sin and are not going to heaven.

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

At no point do the NT authors argue that striving to keep the Law of God perfectly is a "defect".

in Christ,

Bob

[Flyboy]

However, I think that most of us go about it all wrong. We strive to be perfect, rather than striving to have a perfect relationship with God. Salvation is relational. So, all of it, life, attainable perfection, and salvation, are about our relationship with God. The quality and consistency of our relationship with Him is what determines how closely we resemble Jesus.

Again, I like your response. Thought-provoking. Biblical. Reasonable. The idea that a perfect relationship with God is what makes us perfect diffuses the notion of perfection being a things that makes us deserving of salvation.

I'll have to give this some thought, digest it.

As for Jesus' words in the Sermon on the Mount, I'll have to go over it again and read it with a different eye. Previously my interpretation has been that Jesus is telling us in general terms to strive for perfection.

[miz3]

Jesus was born with a fallen human nature -- physically not as strong, or tall as Adam and certainly would have aged the same in 33 years as did his peers of that day.

But Jesus had a sinless nature like Adam.

PERFECT!

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Jesus was born with a fallen human nature -- physically not as strong, or tall as Adam and certainly would have aged the same in 33 years as did his peers of that day.

But Jesus had a sinless nature like Adam.

PERFECT!

Agreed. That was well said.

[BobRyan]

Romans 3 describes the sinful nature "there is no one that seeks after God - no not one".

Paul said that "are we better than they - no not at all".

Paul is not saying that saints are engaged in the same open rebellion as the wicked - he is saying that all of mankind have the same depraved nature.

It is only the supernatural enmity (seen in Gen 3) and the supernatural "drawing of all mankind to God" John 12:32 that restrains us from sin, that draws us to God and that enables the lost to actually choose God over sin.

Jesus said of the lost "behold I stand at the door and knock if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in...".

God on the outside - sinful mankind alone and on the inside confronted with the choice to either open the door to God - or to remain alone and without God - darkened in our thinking and depraved in our desires.

Choose you this day whom you will serve.

Jesus is not the model of how to be a lost sinner in need of the new Birth. He is the model of how to walk in our new nature (for us it would be as a born-again Christian) who walks by faith and not by sight, who walks in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Flyboy

Second, striving to be perfect suggests a couple of things, primarily that salvation can be attained through works, not faith.

In Romans 8:5-7 Paul says that only the lost are in a condition where they actually cannot keep the Law of God.

In Romans 6 Paul makes a good case that if you claim you must sin then you are the servant of sin and are not going to heaven.

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

At no point do the NT authors argue that striving to keep the Law of God perfectly is a "defect".

in Christ,

Bob

I would disagree with you, slightly.

Nowhere do the NT authors say keeping the commandments of God is legalism. That's my disagreement. It's subtle, but significant.

I have approached Christianity in two ways during my life. I was raised, as many have been, with a very legalistic view of salvation. I was never taught that it was an infilling of the Holy Spirt that would enable me to keep the law.

The second approach is that if I do not maintain a very healthy, ongoing constant communion with God I have realized that I cannot keep God's law. How do I maintaing that relationship, by constantly surrendering self to the leading of the Holy Spirit. When God shows me something in my life that isn't right I must surrender that part of myself, and He will bring me to the point again and again until I do, then my relationship with Him deepens, becomes more intimate. He leads me, step-by-step, surrender-by-surrender, closer to Him.

The above is Paul's basic message in Romans 6. He doesn't say strive for righteousness. He says yield yourselves to righteousness. That's a very important distinction and vital, I think, to correctly understanding our saving relationship with God.

[BobRyan]

I agree that due to the depravity of our sinful nature - sin is only overcome by the power of God in the form of the Holy Spirit.

As for striving against sin --

Hebrews 12

1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

1Cor 9

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;

27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

[Gary K]

I agree that due to the depravity of our sinful nature - sin is only overcome by the power of God in the form of the Holy Spirit.

As for striving against sin --

Hebrews 12

1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

1Cor 9

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.

25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;

27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

Bob,

Do you think Paul disciplined himself outside of the context of being led to that point by the Holy Spirit? He's not saying I'm doing this to attain, but to not be disqualified. That's a very important distinction. If he is following the leading of the Holy Spirit he must go where the Spirit leads. Do you think he made a practice of following the Holy Spirit's leading?

Also, do you not see yeilding yourself to God as discipline? I can tell you that there are some very fierce internal battles which take place. The closer your relationship takes you to God, the closer to the very heart of self, the more difficult the surrender. You don't believe that? Take a look at Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemanee. He sweated blood there, and He had made it a lifetime habit to always surrender His own self to His Father's will....

Ellen White tells us this was Christ's biggest struggle, biggest temptation, for He didn't have to die. He chose to die.

[Dr. Rich]

GaryK wrote: "Do you think Paul disciplined himself outside of the context of being led to that point by the Holy Spirit? He's not saying I'm doing this to attain, but to not be disqualified. That's a very important distinction. If he is following the leading of the Holy Spirit he must go where the Spirit leads. Do you think he made a practice of following the Holy Spirit's leading?"

When you read the account of Paul being told by Agabus that the Holy Spirit warned Paul what would happen to him IF he went to Jerusalem and Paul's answer, you will see that Paul refused to accept the leading of the Holy Spirit. Paul said he was willing to die, but when push came to shove, Paul did everything he could do, even pulling his Roman Citizenship card, so that they would not kill him. What a coward! Of course I have serious doubts that Agabus was a true prophet of God. (See Acts 20:24 and 21:11-13)

Oh, and didn't God say not to go to Asia but he went anyway?

[Sonny]

But Jesus had a sinless nature like Adam.

Utterly false. Jesus didn't come to defeat the sinless nature of Adam before the fall. He came to defeat sin in sinful mankind. And He did this by assuming our humanity indwelt with the love of self. He became sin (as a man) who (as God) knew no sin.

[doug yowell]

When you read the account of Paul being told by Agabus that the Holy Spirit warned Paul what would happen to him IF he went to Jerusalem and Paul's answer, you will see that Paul refused to accept the leading of the Holy Spirit. Paul said he was willing to die, but when push came to shove, Paul did everything he could do, even pulling his Roman Citizenship card, so that they would not kill him. What a coward! Of course I have serious doubts that Agabus was a true prophet of God. (See Acts 20:24 and 21:11-13)

Oh, and didn't God say not to go to Asia but he went anyway?

So if Agabus was not really a true prophet of God wouldn't that make Paul a very spiritually discerning person for not taking his non-Holy Spirit inspired advice? How can you have serious doubts about any part of an account that you have already rejected as being fictious? Why do you use parts of Luke's Acts account to demonstrate Paul's cowardness while rejecting his other accounts that demonstrate Paul's fearlessness?

[phkrause]

So if Agabus was not really a true prophet of God wouldn't that make Paul a very spiritually discerning person for not taking his non-Holy Spirit inspired advice? How can you have serious doubts about any part of an account that you have already rejected as being fictious? Why do you use parts of Luke's Acts account to demonstrate Paul's cowardness while rejecting his other accounts that demonstrate Paul's fearlessness?

It does make one wonder doesn't it?

[Gary K]

GaryK wrote: "Do you think Paul disciplined himself outside of the context of being led to that point by the Holy Spirit? He's not saying I'm doing this to attain, but to not be disqualified. That's a very important distinction. If he is following the leading of the Holy Spirit he must go where the Spirit leads. Do you think he made a practice of following the Holy Spirit's leading?"

When you read the account of Paul being told by Agabus that the Holy Spirit warned Paul what would happen to him IF he went to Jerusalem and Paul's answer, you will see that Paul refused to accept the leading of the Holy Spirit. Paul said he was willing to die, but when push came to shove, Paul did everything he could do, even pulling his Roman Citizenship card, so that they would not kill him. What a coward! Of course I have serious doubts that Agabus was a true prophet of God. (See Acts 20:24 and 21:11-13)

Oh, and didn't God say not to go to Asia but he went anyway?

Dr. Rich,

I hadn't seen this until just now so I haven't been ignoring you.

Have you ever been told not to do something now by a person in authority over you, and then later been allowed to that very thing by the same person of authority? The only reason you were stopped the first time was because the timing was wrong.

To extrapolate that Paul was forever barred from working in Asia because the Holy Spirit told Paul not to go there at one point in time is a huge stretch. There is no textual evidence that the Holy Spirit forever banned Paul from going to Asia.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

The following is righteousness/salvation by works.

Revelation 22:12

Revelation is very symbolic. Go to the clear texts and prove salvation by works.

You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Sonny.

Our works are the evidence of our relationship with God, or our lack of a relationship with God. So, yes we will be judged by our works, for the they show the condition of the heart.

That isn't legalism. That isn't external religion. That's looking at the undeniable evidence of whether we have allowed God to live in all the areas of our heart, or denied Him entrance into the most intimate parts of our hearts. Remember, Jesus said, out of the treasures of the heart the righteous man brings forth good deeds, and evil man brings forth evil deeds.

Why do you have a problem with that?

[Flyboy]

There is no textual evidence that the Holy Spirit forever banned Paul from going to Asia.

Is there any textual evidence that he did give later permission?

Sorry Gary, I promise, I am not just following you around on the forum to disagree with you.