Denominational System & Structure - Servant or Master?

[JonathanPenner]

Should the systems and structures of our church, both at a local level and denominationally, serve the Mission God gave us in Matthew 28?

Was the mission given by God suppose to fit our system or should the system be designed to serve the mission?

Should organizing ourselves and creating church systems and structures serve the purpose of making fully devoted lovers of Jesus who are willing to listen, learn and perpetually grow in love and alignment with God's character?

Or were the systems and structures we have in place as a denomination given to us by God, and not to be touched, modified or changed?

What are your thoughts?

[phkrause]

Interesting thoughts Jonathan, I really have no idea what God wanted as far as church structure. But its obvious that some kind of a structure is required.

[JonathanPenner]

To be clear, I am not suggesting that systems or structures are unnecessary. Quite the opposite. Whether articulated or not, I believe that every successful organization, company or institution, has systems and structures designed to help them accomplish their objective.

My question really surrounds an examination and discussion about our structure/system. Is our system producing what we would like to see produced? Are our churches peaking out in their redemptive potential? Is there a continually growing number of Seventh-day Adventist churches across North America, that are churches of significance in their local communities? Do we see deep transformational change happening on a weekly basis in the lives of many attending an Adventist church? Are our young people being inspired by a compelling, clear, culturally engaged, understanding of Jesus Christ? Is the local church leading them to experience God in such an awesome way that they just can't help but invite their friends? Are our systems and structures allowing us to staff our local churches for growth? Does our financial system provide us with optimal return on investment? And I could go on...

Bottom line, we do need a system. We do need structures that help local Jesus-following Adventist communities experience their redemptive potential. The question is, do we have those systems in place? If not, why not?

[Gerr]

We could have just about any form of gov't if we have saints at the top and saints at the bottom. No form of gov't is completely satisfactory if you have corrupt people at the top and at the bottom.

[ClubV12]

I came across a couple of statements by EGW about working outside the "regular lines". I'm not sure what that means exactly, but it caught my eye.

[JonathanPenner]

I came across a couple of statements by EGW about working outside the "regular lines". I'm not sure what that means exactly, but it caught my eye.

Please share them.

[ClubV12]

I came across a brief history of the work in the South, while studying another subject. I'm not sure where or what the referrences were, but I do recall the basics.

Edson White (I think it was Edson) had a boat, the Morning Star, and some printing presses and was opening the work in the South geared specifically toward the negroes. It seems this effort was NOT supported by Battle Creek and they not only refused to fund it but asked Ellen White to close it! She at first agreed but then received a vision or dream that essentially told her the work should go forward both in "regular" and "irregular" lines. I assume, in this case, that meant the work of the "Morning Star" was supported by donations or was self sustaining in some manner. But NOT supported financially by the organized SDA church of that time. Perhaps it was at a later date?

Like I said, it's not an issue I've looked into, I just came across the basics while studying another topic.

There was a Mission Spotlight story in church some weeks or months ago about a family that wanted to work over seas, but were denied funding by the church. So, they sold everything and went to the mission field on their own. That also would be "irregular" lines of work.

[phkrause]

I came across a brief history of the work in the South, while studying another subject. I'm not sure where or what the referrences were, but I do recall the basics.

Edson White (I think it was Edson) had a boat, the Morning Star, and some printing presses and was opening the work in the South geared specifically toward the negroes. It seems this effort was NOT supported by Battle Creek and they not only refused to fund it but asked Ellen White to close it! She at first agreed but then received a vision or dream that essentially told her the work should go forward both in "regular" and "irregular" lines. I assume, in this case, that meant the work of the "Morning Star" was supported by donations or was self sustaining in some manner. But NOT supported financially by the organized SDA church of that time. Perhaps it was at a later date?

Like I said, it's not an issue I've looked into, I just came across the basics while studying another topic.

There was a Mission Spotlight story in church some weeks or months ago about a family that wanted to work over seas, but were denied funding by the church. So, they sold everything and went to the mission field on their own. That also would be "irregular" lines of work.

ClubV12, there is a book by EGW called "the Southern Work" I'm guessing that this if the book your talking about. I believe it talks to the things your mentioning.

[ClubV12]

In time I might want to look into the "Southern Work" a little more. I was actually studying issues surrounding the 1888 conflict when I stumbled across the "irregular" work concept.

...boy that whole 1888 thing is a rather dark chapter in our history. I'm not sure it has been fully resolved YET!

[Gordon1]

I really have no idea what God wanted as far as church structure.

P Krause, you have defined the problem of centuries. By disobeying the Bible order, man has lost his way. The same happened to Satan whose rebellion resulted in expulsion from heaven. Satan challenged the government of God which was perfect. The apostles knew and obeyed the rules for church structure, but we today have fallen into denominationalism - the exact same problem which existed in 1888. EGW and Jones & Waggoner addressed this very principle - church structure.

Today as in 1888 minds are confused, aka Babylon.

God calls us out of Babylon and into His Church.

The main principles of Christ's Church on earth are this:

1. Christ is the Head of the Church

2. "All ye are brethren."

Without these truths no man can advance in God's work, but by obedience to these no man can fail. For this reason the laymen will finish the work, working in 'irregular' lines.

[ClubV12]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the organized and sanctioned SDA church is a part of Babylon. As disorganized and in perial at any given time it may appear to be, it remains God's church on earth, I truly believe that.

In my opinion, "Babylon" is the great variety of christian denominations that worship on Sunday, #1 and have a wide variety of ideas as to what constitues doctrine, #2. Thus, confusion reigns, the definition of Babylon if you would! As it concerns those who believe Babylon is represented solely by the Catholic denomination, I don't have a problem with that, I just think it needs a bit of expansion to also include the myriad of Sunday worshipers.

Were told that though it (God's church, aka, the SDA church) may appear about to fall, it does not. HOWEVER, I do have some concerns about whether or not that is a CONDITIONAL promise or statement. But as for me, I'm not prepared to say God's church will fail, ever, until I have had more time to study the "what if" scenarios.

There are many references to Israel also "never failing", and yet, it happened!

[Bravus]

80% of the problem with 'organised religion' is the 'organised' part, because as soon as you have an organisation its default becomes defending its own power rather than putting people (or God) first.

[skyblue888]

clubV12, when Mrs. White says "the church may appear to fall" she is not talking about the man-made organization but about the faithful few who are joint to the invisible Head and therefore who are members of the body of Christ. The true church appeared to fall when Christ was crucified by the leaders of the established church. It was the little church composed of the disciples of Christ that appeared to fall while the "established church" reigned as a queen.

I invite you to compare C.O.L.294 and 304.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

I really have no idea what God wanted as far as church structure.

P Krause, you have defined the problem of centuries. By disobeying the Bible order, man has lost his way. The same happened to Satan whose rebellion resulted in expulsion from heaven. Satan challenged the government of God which was perfect. The apostles knew and obeyed the rules for church structure, but we today have fallen into denominationalism - the exact same problem which existed in 1888. EGW and Jones & Waggoner addressed this very principle - church structure.

Today as in 1888 minds are confused, aka Babylon.

God calls us out of Babylon and into His Church.

The main principles of Christ's Church on earth are this:

1. Christ is the Head of the Church

2. "All ye are brethren."

Without these truths no man can advance in God's work, but by obedience to these no man can fail. For this reason the laymen will finish the work, working in 'irregular' lines.

Right on Gordon!

sky

[skyblue888]

80% of the problem with 'organised religion' is the 'organised' part, because as soon as you have an organisation its default becomes defending its own power rather than putting people (or God) first.

I would say 100%.

sky :)

[Bravus]

I could go higher.

[skyblue888]

[ClubV12]

Ah, thanks for that insight on the "falling church" issue Sky. That is something I've been considering lately.

SO many books, SO little time, I'm peddaling as fast as I can!

I see it, Christs Object Lessons, Chapter, "The Lords Vineyard" (or close to that), I haven't read that one yet. I'll look it up as I have that book in PDF on my computer.

[skyblue888]

Ah, thanks for that insight on the "falling church" issue Sky. That is something I've been considering lately.

SO many books, SO little time, I'm peddaling as fast as I can!

I see it, Christs Object Lessons, Chapter, "The Lords Vineyard", I haven't read that one yet. I'll look it up as I have that book in PDF on my computer.

Thanks and good for you brother.

sky

[John317]

...boy that whole 1888 thing is a rather dark chapter in our history. I'm not sure it has been fully resolved YET!

There are two major, differing points of view on this. Check out Movement of Destiny by LeRoy Froom; the 1888 Materials by Ellen White; and the books written by Robert Wieland and Donald K. Short, especially a book entitled 1888 Re-Examined. (If you can, get the 1988 edition of the latter.)

[JonathanPenner]

Where do we ever read in the Bible that the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, legally registered worldwide as a non-profit organization, is "God's" church? Is this the only one God attends? Does He ever visit any others? Does He ever reveal Himself through any other church? Do we as an organized denomination hold the exclusive on well organized truth devoid of any confusion? Do we really "have THE truth?"

Please understand my attitude as I ask these questions. I love the common truths we hold as a community of Jesus followers living under the banner of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. I hold deeply to the understanding that the Bible teaches of a time within the last 150 or so years when there would be some specific and timely Bible truths brought to the forefront by a group of people.

But to suggest that the Bible describes this in terms of a Branded organization, with a thee angels logo, and a tax exempt status, is not something I can reconcile in scripture.

On the other hand to suggest that the "organized" part of "organized religion" is the problem is like saying the "profitable" part of a "profitable business" is the problem. Just because a business shows a profit, doesn't mean it's gouging customers or exploiting it's employees. Likewise an church that is well organized, does not mean it is controlling and self consumed. Referring to the "organized" part of religion describes nothing until we define what we mean.

In order for ANY mission to be accomplished, organization is required. Give me one example where this is not true. Jesus organized His ministry. Paul organized the work he did. Moses wrote whole books in the Bible about his work of organization. I don't care if you are Bono, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffet, Rob Bell or Sam Walton. If you don't create structures and systems to accomplish what you want to accomplish, your achievements will be limited at best.

However just as there are companies that exploit workers and rip off customers. There are churches that are organized for control and preservation. While I don't find any biblical prescription for how we are to organize local churches. I do read stories that Jesus told about people who were not fruitful. Or who didn't take the business of accomplishing their mission seriously. And he came down pretty hard on those who thought being conservatively faithful was what it was all about.

Instead Jesus talked about rewarding the risk takers. The bold dreamers. The individuals who "think different." And throwing the conservative control oriented worker out of the company. (Matt. 25)

There are ways to organize any organization, whether a church, school, or business, for success or failure. Too often in the church arena, people "spiritualize" organizational structure. Somehow we seem to allow ourselves to become less strategic when it comes to church. Which is I think why Jesus told that story.

In actual fact the church should be the one institution of our culture that stands out as having THE MOST EFFECTIVE organizational structure and systems of any institution on earth.

But one of our first challenges is that to be effectively organized requires a lazer sharp awareness of God's vision for the local church, combined with a clear sense of our mission. If you don't deeply know WHY you are doing what you are doing. How can you begin to organize yourself.

Therefore, whenever the Mission and Vision become blurry, organizational structures shift from existing to serve the Mission, and instead become vehicles for control and preservation of the organization. And that's what I think Jesus had a serious problem with.

For instance the Jewish nation was organized for power, control, and preservation of their institution. All the while Jesus was organizing for growth.

The truth is, you can organize for growth or you can organize for control, but you can't do both. Jesus clearly opted for growth in his ministry. Having made that statement, I do want to recognize that there are healthy instances of both in the New Testament. More often than not New Testament churches were organized for growth. However there were also some instances where in Paul's ministry he had to provide a remedial organizational structure in order to bring health back into some churches that had become dysfunctional sidetracked.

So in the end, it's not about whether or not "organized" is good or bad. It's about how you are organized and whether or not the structures and systems you have in place are effective in leading your organization to perpetually achieve its mission.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

...boy that whole 1888 thing is a rather dark chapter in our history. I'm not sure it has been fully resolved YET!

There are two major, differing points of view on this. Check out Movement of Destiny by LeRoy Froom; the 1888 Materials by Ellen White; and the books written by Robert Wieland and Donald K. Short, especially a book entitled 1888 Re-Examined. (If you can, get the 1988 edition of the latter.)

What is your point John? I have read those.

sky

[skyblue888]

Where do we ever read in the Bible that the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, legally registered worldwide as a non-profit organization, is "God's" church? Is this the only one God attends? Does He ever visit any others? Does He ever reveal Himself through any other church? Do we as an organized denomination hold the exclusive on well organized truth devoid of any confusion? Do we really "have THE truth?"

Please understand my attitude as I ask these questions. I love the common truths we hold as a community of Jesus followers living under the banner of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. I hold deeply to the understanding that the Bible teaches of a time within the last 150 or so years when there would be some specific and timely Bible truths brought to the forefront by a group of people.

But to suggest that the Bible describes this in terms of a Branded organization, with a thee angels logo, and a tax exempt status, is not something I can reconcile in scripture.

On the other hand to suggest that the "organized" part of "organized religion" is the problem is like saying the "profitable" part of a "profitable business" is the problem. Just because a business shows a profit, doesn't mean it's gouging customers or exploiting it's employees. Likewise an church that is well organized, does not mean it is controlling and self consumed. Referring to the "organized" part of religion describes nothing until we define what we mean.

In order for ANY mission to be accomplished, organization is required. Give me one example where this is not true. Jesus organized His ministry. Paul organized the work he did. Moses wrote whole books in the Bible about his work of organization. I don't care if you are Bono, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffet, Rob Bell or Sam Walton. If you don't create structures and systems to accomplish what you want to accomplish, your achievements will be limited at best.

However just as there are companies that exploit workers and rip off customers. There are churches that are organized for control and preservation. While I don't find any biblical prescription for how we are to organize local churches. I do read stories that Jesus told about people who were not fruitful. Or who didn't take the business of accomplishing their mission seriously. And he came down pretty hard on those who thought being conservatively faithful was what it was all about.

Instead Jesus talked about rewarding the risk takers. The bold dreamers. The individuals who "think different." And throwing the conservative control oriented worker out of the company. (Matt. 25)

There are ways to organize any organization, whether a church, school, or business, for success or failure. Too often in the church arena, people "spiritualize" organizational structure. Somehow we seem to allow ourselves to become less strategic when it comes to church. Which is I think why Jesus told that story.

In actual fact the church should be the one institution of our culture that stands out as having THE MOST EFFECTIVE organizational structure and systems of any institution on earth.

But one of our first challenges is that to be effectively organized requires a lazer sharp awareness of God's vision for the local church, combined with a clear sense of our mission. If you don't deeply know WHY you are doing what you are doing. How can you begin to organize yourself.

Therefore, whenever the Mission and Vision become blurry, organizational structures shift from existing to serve the Mission, and instead become vehicles for control and preservation of the organization. And that's what I think Jesus had a serious problem with.

For instance the Jewish nation was organized for power, control, and preservation of their institution. All the while Jesus was organizing for growth.

The truth is, you can organize for growth or you can organize for control, but you can't do both. Jesus clearly opted for growth in his ministry. Having made that statement, I do want to recognize that there are healthy instances of both in the New Testament. More often than not New Testament churches were organized for growth. However there were also some instances where in Paul's ministry he had to provide a remedial organizational structure in order to bring health back into some churches that had become dysfunctional sidetracked.

So in the end, it's not about whether or not "organized" is good or bad. It's about how you are organized and whether or not the structures and systems you have in place are effective in leading your organization to perpetually achieve its mission.

It is not about not being organized but about being organized from the Head. If you and I were joined to the Head which is Christ Jesus we would be automatically organized, would we not? By "organized work" is meant man-made constitutions which do not allow Christ to be the Head of the church. The body of Christ is not to be controlled by man. Christ intends that no authority shall be known in the soul but His own. See D.A.324,414; A.A.11.

If you have not taken the time to study what happened at the 1901 and 1903 General Conferences, it would be a good place to start. The 1901 Constitution was a step in the right direction eliminating the presidency. The Lord said, "The king is still enthroned." "I want the Holy Ghost to be King." This was the first reformatory step toward divine order. The principle of self-government in Christ by the Holy Spirit was the principle to build upon and Christ was to be the foundation.

"What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

It was a good start but it didn't last. At the 1903 General Conference the leaders reversed the reformatory steps taken during the 1901 General Conference. God was put aside and the devisings of men prevailed. And this has been our legacy ever since.

sky

[JonathanPenner]

Skyblue, your comments raise further questions. What do we mean when we say Christ Jesus is the head of the church?

In the first chapter of Acts of the Apostles, Ellen writes a powerful description of "the Church."

"The church is God's appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, (Who is given the practical responsibility of organizing it for service?) and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world. (How is the gospel to be carried to the world if no one leads the mission in it's varied locations around the planet? Even in heaven, there are leaders of leaders and organized groups, yet never to the diminishment of Christ's leadership.) From the beginning it has been God's plan that through His church shall be reflected to the world His fullness and His sufficiency. The members of the church, those whom He has called out of darkness into His marvelous light, are to show forth His glory. (These members are identified as individuals called out of darkeness and into light. This does no suggest institutional membership, but instead is descriptive of all who are members of God's universal church) The church is the repository of the riches of the grace of Christ; and through the church will eventually be made manifest, even to "the principalities and powers in heavenly places," the final and full display of the love of God. Ephesians 3:10."

The description continues on and culminates with the statement "Enfeebled and defective as it may appear, the church is the one object upon which God bestows in a special sense His supreme regard. It is the theater of His grace, in which He delights to reveal His power to transform hearts."

If the church is the ONE object God gives his supreme attention to, we aught to take it's organization very seriously.

She then goes on to describe the fact that Jesus could find no good organizational comparisons in the business or political world because they are too often built on some form control, godless ambition and coercive power. But the church of Christ should NEVER use forceful power, control or any form of coercion.

Instead it is to function as a well organized community of oneness as described by Jesus in his prayer in John 17. The church is to be organized around the various gifts of its members, empowered by the Holy Spirit, and oriented outward toward those who have yet to see a clear and compellingly irresistible picture of who God is.

To suggest that somehow when you decide to follow Christ and I follow Christ we become automatically organized in a way that allows the local church to reach it's redemptive potential, simply doesn't make sense. With all due respect it sounds like an over spiritualization of that which God has called us to do. An abdication of our God given responsibilities covered in a blanket of spiritualization.

Why would God give some the gift of leadership, others the gift of helps, others the gift of evangelism, or communication, or any other of the many gifts given by God for the work of the church? A leader leads and organizes. An evangelist keeps God's love for lost people top-of-mind in the local church. A person with the gift of helps serves in any capacity possible for the Glory of God. Together as a team, empowered by the Holy Spirit, it is a force that even the worst of hell can't hold off.

All through the history of this planet we see people turn toward God or turn away, in large part because of leadership. Godly Holy Spirit submitted servant leadership designed to support and not to lord, has always been an ingredient of any movement toward God that has ever taken place on this plant.

To sit back and think that simply by accepting Christ's leadership in your personal life, you've now accomplished the organizing of the church, just doesn't make sense. While that personal submission to Christ is absolutely essential, it does not replace the work of organizing.

On the other hand controlling, manipulative, coercive, hierarchal, structures and systems used within any church body, are simply not acceptable according to Jesus. So whenever church leaders place a higher value on preserving their jobs, over serving the Mission of Christ, that is unacceptable. Whenever church organization becomes that which we defend and preserve, it is NOT God honouring.

Therefore the organization of the church MUST ALWAYS begin with Jesus vision for the church and the mission it was created to accomplish. Organizational structures MUST ALWAYS serve the mission, never dominate or supersede it. And by default within this context, all church systems, structures and organizational elements, MUST ALWAYS remain flexible, changeable and fluid. Because whenever and wherever the church is, the organizational structure will require evaluation along with specific and strategic application.

While the mission is sacred and unchanging, the structures and systems are not. While Jesus teachings and truths never change, the methods, styles of communication and systems of organization, require continual change.

So when any church institution treats its structures or systems as though it were sanctified by God, we should be wary. From financial systems (use of tithe) to ministry methods, structures must always follow and serve the mission they were designed to serve. And the mission in this case, is of the highest concern to the Creator of the entire universe.

[skyblue888]

"The church is God's fortress, His city of refuge which He holds in a revolted world... From the beginning, faithful few have constituted the church of earth." A.A.11.

"The soul that is yielded to Chist becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan." D.A.324.

"The church of Christ, every individual disciple of the Master, is Heaven's appointed channel for the revelation of God to men." M.B.40.

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. 'Where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.' Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church." The Upward Look, p.315.

We cannot organize ourselves. Christ is the great Organizer. Unless we have a spiritual connection with Him we are not organized but only disorganized.

At the General Conference meeting in 1901, Mrs. White made this reformatory statement which is in harmony with the statements we have just read:

"Let me tell you, If your heart is in the work, and you have faith in God, you need not depend upon the sanction of any minister or any people; if you go right to work in the name of the Lord, in a humble way doing what you can do to teach the truth, God will vindicate you." p.26.

sky