Denominational System & Structure - Servant or Master?

[skyblue888]

"God cannot glorify His name through His people while they are leaning upon man and making flesh their arm." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.729.

It is easier to sit back and let someone else determine what is and is not the truth, and then accept that interpretation as our own. The membership had come to expect to be spoonfed the truth rather than search for it themselves. Satan knows that if he can bring the membership to rely upon the leadership, he need only to concentrate upon the leadership to accept and teach his false theories, maxims and doctrines.

Thus the need for the first angel's message, "Fear God and give glory to Him."

"Those who feared God were to think for themselves. They were no longer to let other men do their thinking. They were no longer to be chained down to erroneous theories, maxims, and doctrines." E.G. White, This Day With God p.23.

This was and still is the crux of the matter.

"Our churches are weak because the members are educated to look to and depend upon human resources." Testimonies to Ministers, p.380.

"A strange thing has come into our churches. Men who are in positions of responsibility, that they may be wise helpers to their fellow workers, have come to suppose that they are set as kings and rulers in the churches, to say to one brother, do this; to another, do that; and to another, be sure to labor in such and such a way. There have been places where the workers have been told that if they did not follow the instruction of these men of responsibility, their pay from the conference would be withheld." Ibid, pp.477,488. (1909)

to be continued

[skyblue888]

The real motive for rejecting the 1888 message was a reluctance and a refusal of those in positions of leadership to move over and give God control. Jesus is the only safe guide for the conscience. The Holy Spirit must be allowed to develop the religious conscience and direct each member in the work of God:

"The Head of every man is Christ. The church is built upon Christ as its foundation; it is to obey Christ as its Head. It is not to depend upon man, or be controlled by man. Many claim that a position of trust in the church gives them authority to dictate what others shall believe and what they shall do. This claim God does not sanction. The Saviour declares, 'All ye are brethren.' All are exposed to temptation, and are liable to error. Upon no finite being can we depend for guidance. The Rock of faith is the living presence of Christ in the church. 'Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm.' 'Blessed are they who put their trust in God.'" Desire of Ages, p.414.

"Many who profess to know God turned from the One in whom our hope of eternal life is centered and have educated themselves to depend upon their erring and fallible fellowmen. They are crippled spiritually when they do this; for no man is infallible, and his influence may be misleading. He who trusts in man not only leans upon a broken reed and gives Satan opportunity to introduce himself, but he becomes lifted up in his estimation of himself and loses the sense of his dependence upon God. Just as soon as he is placed where God should be, he loses his purity, his vigor, his confidence in God's power. Moral confusion results, because his powers become unsanctified and perverted. He feels competent to judge his fellowmen, and he strives unlawfully to be a god over them." Testimonies to Ministers, p.376.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

sky, I have to object to what you posted as it does not agree with the words of Jesus. Sure, some of it is correct, but when one apple is rotten the whole peck is rotten.

Jesus did not come to this world to set up any structure for any so called christian church. He said that there is only ONE teacher and that is Jesus Christ. This is why we have been given His words by the eyewitnesses, so that we also can read them and obey what Jesus said and taught. (Jn. 17)

The problem in the 1888 GC conference is and was leadership and the direction doctrine should go. Many old timers did not agree with A. T. Jones' view and with the view of the 'new ager' group that had a view that they should be listening to the words of anyone else other that the words of Jesus. This is why the SDA church is now spiritually sleeping.

[JonathanPenner]

"The steady progress of our work, and our increased facilities are filling the hearts and minds of many of our people with satisfaction and pride, which we fear will take the place of the first love of God in the soul. Busy activity in the mechanical part of even the work of God may so occupy the mind that prayer shall be neglected; and self-importance and self-sufficiency, so ready to urge their way, shall take the place of true goodness, meekness, and lowliness of heart. They are more ready for active labor than for humble devotion, more ready to embrace in outward religious service than in the inner work of the heart. Meditation and prayer are neglected for bustle and show." Testimonies, Vol.4, p.534 (1881)

I love this statement. It is so important! It is similar to what Oswald Chambers often writes in his book My Utmost for His Highest. She is pointing at a pivotal ingredient.

Without humble devotion, all outward work and busy activity is of little to no value. However she is also NOT saying that outward work and busy activities are not important. Only that devoid of full devotion to Christ, they are a danger to us.

[JonathanPenner]

"Now it has been Satan's determined purpose to eclipse the view of Jesus and lead men to look to men, and trust to man, and be educated to expect help from man, but not looking to Jesus in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered. Many had lost sight of Jesus and they needed to have their eyes directed to Him, to His divine Person, to His merits, and to His changeless love for the human family." Testimonies to Ministers, pp.93,92.

...The church was being educated to look to man and expect much help from man. The leaders were as gods to the people; at least that is how God viewed the matter:

Again sky, I deeply agree and resonate with this statement from both Ellen and yourself.

Satan will always look for ways to take the eyes of every single person off Jesus, both followers and those who have never truly seen him.

I can still remember sitting in a Sabbath-school class as a young teen, and listening to a couple in our church make the statement "If the conference leaders tell us this is truth, than that's what we are to follow." It set off alarm bells in my heart as a teen, and would launch an earth quake in me today.

We have placed too much in our "education system" in our "great leaders" and have become far to arrogant. When we make statements like "we have the truth and they don't" it's as though we are God himself.

All you have to do is take an hour to read through Job and figure out that God is God. We don't know what we don't know. And we are not all knowing.

[JonathanPenner]

"A strange thing has come into our churches. Men who are in positions of responsibility, that they may be wise helpers to their fellow workers, have come to suppose that they are set as kings and rulers in the churches, to say to one brother, do this; to another, do that; and to another, be sure to labor in such and such a way. There have been places where the workers have been told that if they did not follow the instruction of these men of responsibility, their pay from the conference would be withheld." Ibid, pp.477,488. (1909)

The more I read the statements you are highlighting, the more I realize why God has blessed Willow Creeks so greatly.

At the forming of Willow they identified a strong value for the plurality of leadership. All along they have organized their ministry to include the kinds of accountability and servant leadership structures that will support and maintain this value.

Simultaneously they have also setup structures that allow for the gift of leadership to be fostered and flourish. Leadership is seen as a servant role. It is always to be exercised within the context of full submission to Christ, and with accountability to others.

For instance where most onlookers would see Bill Hybels as a "rock star" type leader, a little king, that couldn't be further from the truth. While Bill has been blessed with a huge dose of the leadership gift, it is the Elders of Willow Creek who Bill is accountable to.

[JonathanPenner]

The real motive for rejecting the 1888 message was a reluctance and a refusal of those in positions of leadership to move over and give God control. Jesus is the only safe guide for the conscience. The Holy Spirit must be allowed to develop the religious conscience and direct each member in the work of God.

I think this is where I lose you Sky. You talk about giving God control, but you never give any practical substance to statements. It sounds like a broken record, where the needle keeps skipping and all I want is to hear the rest of the song.

I say that, not disrespectfully, but because I truly want to hear the rest of the song. You keep talking about Christ being the head, which I agree with, but you don't net out what that really looks like.

Or perhaps you have. Maybe you are saying we need no organization and Christ will lead each one of us as individuals and somehow the church will move forward.

If that is your vision of how things should be, it would then be consistent to suggest that as the head of my household, Christ should simply lead my kids. I don't need to exercise any kind of leadership, organization or functional authority within my household. Under Christ's leadership, it will spontaneously happen.

Again, I agree that without Christ as the head, leading me, my leadership in my home will lack God honoring direction. However, with Christ as the head, my hands will do what He would have done. My feet will move at the impulse of His love. The organizing and direction I give my family will be lead by the movement of Christ through my life.

But there will still be physical, literal, practical movement. There will still be actual, strategic, organization. Systems will be setup to allow for greater movement of the Holy Spirit. My leadership authority in my home will be called on at times to make decisions.

My choice is do I submit all these leadership ideas, decisions, structural forms, and family systems to the leadership of Christ in my life?

A book truly worth reading. Probably one of the three books I would take to a desert island, would be this; The Bible of course, Acts of the Apostles, and Community 101.

Community 101, written by Gilbert Bilezikian is a powerful theological discussion of church community. Of how the church is to be organized according to the Bible. With clarity, theological underpinnings, and practical examples, Bilezikian expands what Ellen White has written on the theology of the church, its function, and its form throughout all earth's history.

http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/...gSite=Zondervan

[JonathanPenner]

I think the disconnect may be linked to this belief that I hold.

What I believe:

I believe the Bible teaches that Christ is not only the head of the church, but that He is also the Groom. The church is His bride. He leads His bride through the work of the Holy Spirit.

What does it look like:

The Spirit gives us each varied gifts. As we submit our entire lives to be lead, directed, guided by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit actuates our gifts and we have the responsibility of using them to God's glory. Under the guidance of One, each of us work together as a community using the gifts of the Spirit. Therefore leaders, lead. Those with the gift of helps, help. Those with organizational and administrative gifts, organize and administrate. All of which is done under the leadership of Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

None are more important than another, but all serve as are lead by the Holy Spirit. Through this process is created the community of oneness on this earth. An organization that as Jesus pointed out, has nothing that compares on this earth.

It's this community, when it functions right, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus said would change the world. (John 17)

Whenever we side-step or slip into any core structure that aborts the leadership of the Holy Spirit, we move from creating a community of oneness, and end up creating just another club or worldly organization. And when that happens pride, abuse of power, ungodly hierarchy, and other dysfunctional element of the church rise up.

[Pastor_Chick]

You guys who want reorganization, what changes would you make?

Let me reiterate what I said before: The most perfect form of governance will fail as long as it is run by people tainted with sin. That doesn't mean we ought not to strive for what works best.

Monarchy, the most undesirable form of governance on this planet that I could think of, is what heaven has. Yet it works best, because the very King who rules, does so with absolute wisdom, justice, and power. Furthermore, a King who is willing to stoop down and wash the feet of one of His lowliest and filthiest creatures.

Thank you, Gerry. Perhaps you do not know me (and I expect the majority on the forum do not). I am the controversial defendant in the on-going SDA trademark lawsuit, which does seem to relate to the discussion here at some level.

It seems evident that Jonathan has opened this discussion for some "good reason." I perceive him to be "diplomatic" in his approach, asking more questions than offering specific criticisms. The very title of the thread says much, however.

I hope all of you will take this matter to the "root," for you will find it true that " Force is the last resort of every false religion." (ST 05-06-97)

[ClubV12]

One change I'd like to see is for the local Pastor's to be able to move on principles that impact their flock without the threat of their pay check and retirement being withdrawn.

Perhaps the church manual, in that respect, needs to rethought, or even done away with completely.

My view has been steadily moving toward seeing the Conference as a "mini Rome" when it comes to enforcing whatever position they like. Regardless of the need or view point of those working in the field. Never the less, I DO and will continue to support the church at all levels. BUT, I am capable of asking questions that may not be in perfect harmony with any given Conference mandate or church manual position.

The Madison School, self supporting work, is one such example. THAT was a hotly contested issue along with the work in the South in general. Step outside the strict boundaries of what the "brethren" think should be done and your asking for trouble.

[Woody]

Quote:

or even done away with completely

[skyblue888]

Jon, thanks for all your comments. Look, I have not expressed my ideas as to what is to be done. I am only providing information through what has already been written.

A letter from Mrs. White written from Cooranbong, Australia, in 1896, sets the tenor of the time. It is addressed to the brethren in America:

"Oh, if I could have the joyful news that the wills and minds of those in Battle Creek who have stood professedly as leaders, were emancipated from the teachings and slavery of Satan, whose captives they have been for so long, I would be willing to cross the broad Pacific to see your faces once more. But I am not anxious to see you with enfeeble perceptions and clouded minds because you have chosen darkness rather than light." Testimonies to Ministers, p.396.

"My heart aches to see presidents of conferences taking the burden of selecting those whom they think they can mold to work with them in the field. They take those who will not differ with them, but will act like mere machines. No president has any right to do this." Ibid, 304,305.

"Suppose the statement of others do not agree with our ideas. Shall we, for this, pronounce them heresy? Shall we, uninspired men, take the responsibility of placing our stakes, and saying, 'this shall not be in print?' Will we ever realize that the consciences of men are not given into our command? If you have appointed committees to do the work which has been going on for years in Battle Creek, dismiss them; and remember that God, the infinite God, has not placed men in any such positions as they occupied at Minneapolis, and have occupied since then." Ibid, 293-295.

"Let me tell you, if your heart is in the work, and you have faith in God, you need not depend upon the sanction of any minister or any people; if you go right to work in the name of the Lord, in a humble way doing what you can do to teach the truth, God will vindicate you." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.26.

In all, a strand can again be seen through the whole thing, centering on the same problem--man asserting himself over his fellow man in the place of God. Those who's ideas conflicted with the ideas of those in positions of trust were not considered; and, in fact, a question was raised as to their fidelity--not to the truth, but to the "organized work" and its leadership. Those who would not differ with them were chosen because they would move with machine-like precision at command. The control of those in positions of trust, who felt they must guide the whole, complicated the work God wanted done. Inspired counsel strongly appealed to the workers in all positions not to depend on their fellowmen bur rather look to God as the source of their strength, and the only one able to effectively coordinate the work.

sky

[ClubV12]

Sky, yeah, that's what I was trying to say! :)

[skyblue888]

Glad we can see eye to eye on this ClubV12.

God bless,

club, I wonder how many realize that this is exactly what took place in the days of the apostle Paul and which led to the papacy.

"Although desirous of safeguarding the best interests of the Christian church, they had failed to keep step with the advancing providences of God, and in their human wisdom attempted to throw about workers many unnecessary restrictions. Thus there arose a group of men who were unacquainted personally with the changing circumstances and peculiar needs met by laborers in distant fields, yet who insisted that they had the authority to direct their brethren in these fields to follow certain specified methods of labor. They felt as if the work of preaching the gospel should be carried forward in harmony with their opinions.

These prejudices strengthened with the passing of the years, until some of the leaders determined that the work of preaching the gospel must henceforth be conducted in accordance with their own ideas. If Paul would conform his methods to certain policies which they advocated they would acknowledge and sustain his work; otherwise they could no longer look upon it with favor or grant it their support.

These men had lost sight of the fact that God is the teacher of His people; that every worker in His cause is to obtain an individual experience in following the divine Leader, not looking to man for direct guidance; that His workers are to be molded and fashioned, not after man's ideas, but after the similitude of the divine."A.A.400,401.

Isn't it amazing how history has been and is being repeated to the very letter?

sky

This is what the apostle Paul was worried about, the "mystery of iniquity" being already at work in his day. 2 Thess. 2:3-7.

[JonathanPenner]

Look, I have not expressed my ideas as to what is to be done. I am only providing information through what has already been written.

Sky, perhaps I am missing something when it comes to understanding your point. Not only do I agree with every Ellen White quote you have brought up so far, but I feel like standing up and cheering her on when I read what she wrote.Her statements are so on target.

So let me give you an example of where I think I may be missing it.

Try and imagine what kind of images would come to your mind if I made the following statement:

"Our God-given talents have been given to us to be cultivated and grown. Mr.____ ____ has the most amazing and beautiful voice. Few singers even compare with his sound. His range is outstanding, his tone so rich, and his control is one of the best I've ever heard. We need more singers like this, to turn their talents into vehicles to glorify God."

What kind of singer comes to mind? Do you have any idea what this singer might really sound like? Who might I be talking about?

I could be describing Freddie Mercury. An absolutely amazing voice. Fits the description like few could. I could be talking about Tony Bennett, Pavarotti, Michael Buble, Michael Jackson, or Joe Perry. I could also be talking about Bing Crosby, Joe Henderson, Robert Plant, Bebe Winans, Josh Groban, Bob Edwards or Wintley Phipps.

The truth is, unless I provide you with a reference. You really don't know who I am describing.

So when you provide quote after quote, and I want to try and understand you. I think it might be that I need you to provide a more specific snap shot of what your ideas look like. What organization like this might feel like. I need the vision in your head to somehow be passed on and into my head.

Is that something you can provide. Not by quote after quote. But by reference to tangible, living, functioning examples of what you envision.

[JonathanPenner]

Rereading the comments from the 1901 GC session you posted and all of Ellen's communication, a thought came to me.

The issue you are driving at may not be organizational structure at all. If I really understand what is being said, it is all about leadership. It's like a John Maxwell axiom. "Everything rises and falls on leadership."

If you simply travel through the books of Chronicles, Kings and Samuel, you see that leadership always changes the trajectory of God's people. Wherever we see a God honoring movement take the world by storm, we always find the gift of leadership functioning at its best.

Moses, Paul, Peter, Daniel and many others had the gift of leadership. And what they did changed our planet. Nelson Mandela, HMS Richards Senior, James White, Martin Luther King, Martin Luther and others in our day have used the gift of leadership to do great work for God.

However, Saul, Jezebel, Samson, Solomon and others in the Bible also had the gift of leadership and used it in a less than God honoring ways at times. I believe Hitler also was given the gift of leadership and he built an organizational structure that also changed our world.

There is, was and always will be leaders who lead for good, or for evil. Sometimes, as was the case for Solomon, he went from good to evil.

So when we talk about church organization, we have to also ask the question; is the organizational structure we're talking about going to be implemented and lead by God submitted, Spirit lead, men and women who have the gift of leadership. Or are other motivating forces going to drive these leaders.

Nowhere in all the quotes you have shared, do I understand them to say that men/women should not lead. Or that the church should not be organized with effective structures and systems.

What I do read is that when men, who's motives and hearts are not controlled by God, lead religious organizations. Crazy and even hellish things happen.

[JonathanPenner]

The following quote is from an article "Missions, Our Mission" written by Gilbert Bilezikian, mentor of Bill Hybels, founding leader and elder of Willow Creek.

If you were to simply read this article you might think it was something Ellen White wrote. You might also misunderstand Bilezikian when he talks about leading a youth to spiritual growth and not simply providing second-rate entertainment. Some would think he was suggesting we don't harness the arts or media in our services. This would be further from the truth when you look at how Willow has harnessed those with creative gifts. Instead he is talking about substance vs. entertainment. Transformational teaching and programming, instead of fluffy entertainment designed to draw more people.

Again, this is the real heart of Willow Creek.

"Where a solid and valid Christian message is proclaimed, there will be men, stalwart men with drive, dedication and determination. There is no explanation for the present leadership crisis affecting churches and denominations in America apart from the dilution of the message, the socialization of the church and the secularization of missions. But let our message and our institutions become Christocentric and young people will be naturally challenged to give priority to the claims of Jesus Christ upon their lives, instead of rejecting full-time Christian services as a futile, remote and unrealistic option. Let our Sunday Schools and youth programs put the accent on service, on spiritual growth instead of striving to provide second-rate entertainment, and young people will naturally rise to take their places as pastors, evangelists, and missionaries." http://bilezikian.com/gbilezikian/publications/missions.html

I do need to add a disclaimer though. While I believe deep in my heart that God has chosen to work in a mighty way at Willow Creek through gifted leaders who are Spirit lead. I am not a proponent of encouraging local Adventist churches to become like Willow. In fact I believe in many cases this would do more harm than good. The core values and underlying assumptions that we as Adventists and most of our local North American churches operate from, do not support or allow for this kind of ministry.

However, if you read all Ellen White wrote in terms of a vision for the church, or the theology of "the church." She describes Willow Creek. Not in terms of specific forms, of which she often encouraged us to explore, test, look for new and fresh expression and avoid being conservative in. But in terms of essential core elements that make up a healthy, thriving, God glorifying, local biblical community.

Therein lies the tension. Willow Creek is a local, culturally relevant, expression of the kind of biblical community Ellen White describes all through her writings. Yet our dominant values as a church, hold us back from embracing this highly effective form of ministry that could bring greater glory to God.

[skyblue888]

Jon, it's not just about leadership as the following statement will show: "What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 G.C. Bulletin, p.25.

Conditions for the development of the work under the guidance of the Spirit of God continued to worsen after the Minneapolis meeting. It is the burden of the book, Testimonies to Ministers, that reproves those in position of leadership for the oppression of their brethren and the disunity and disorganization brought into the work of God by their policies. While the organizational machinery seemed to be running smoothly, in actuality, the administrative structure had become so corrupted and man-centered that the only way to salvage it was to completely overturn and reorganize it on the principles offered in 1888 at the Minneapolis General Conference.

This would occur on a denominational-wide basis, from top to bottom, involving every phase of the work. In a pre-session presentation in the library of the Battle Creek College, during the 1901 General Conference, Ellen White again dealt with the same problem. In this talk, again, as in 1897, the need for reorganization was stated. After the session was called and had opened for business, Mrs. White was recognized. She appealed to the brethren to do the things that should have been done years ago, especially thirteen years ago when they were assembled in Conference (1888) when the Spirit came into their meeting testifying that God was ready to work for His people if they would come into working order.

"The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people...

"Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from that light; and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do today. It is because of the great mercy of God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23.

"Many of you have been educating yourselves to talk with human beings instead of talking with God. There are those here that have traditions, and they stand just as the Pharisees stood. But what we want is God's traditions. We want the living principles of Heaven brought into our lives." Ibid, p.24.

Mrs. White continued with a strong statement expressing the extreme need for complete reorganization:

"What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle... But this will not be done by trusting responsibilities to men who have had light poured upon them year after year for the last ten of fifteen years, and yet have not heeded the light that God has given them. The men that have long stood in positions of trust, while disregarding the light that God has given, are not to be depended upon. God wants them removed." Ibid, pp.25,26.

Mrs. White then gave the children of Israel as an example. In desiring to be like the other nations they thought they should have a king, other than God, over them. The result was disastrous. As to control of the work:

"Now I want to say, God has not put any kingly power in our ranks to control this or that branch of the work. The work has been greatly restricted by the efforts to control it in every line... If the work had not been so restricted by an impediment here, and an impediment there, and on the other side an impediment, it would have gone forward in its majesty." Ibid, p.26.

sky

[JonathanPenner]

My first question is, can you give me some references of what you believe needs to happen? Are there any pockets where this is happening?

Secondly, I realize that Ellen talks often about reorganization. My question is why? What were her concerns? What I read most often is her concern over those things that were linked to leaders and leadership.

So of course reorganization is a part of this equation.

[skyblue888]

On page 83 of the 1901 Bulletin, we read:

"This meeting will determine the character of our work in the future. How important that every step taken is taken under the supervision of God. This work must be carried in a very different manner that it has been in the past years." E.G. White.

A.T. Jones was recognized and he was asked to speak on organization. He had some things to say in regard to the way the work had been handled in the past and the way in which it was to be conducted in the future. In an evening sermon he spoke to the delegates concerning organization from the Head:

"God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual...

"But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...

"Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...

"I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.

Brother Jones used the organization of the natural body as a divinely chosen illustration for the correct organization of the church.

"This organization in which we ourselves are,--our bodies which God has made us,--He has presented before us as an everlasting illustration of the organization of the church, His body. And it is exceeding carelessness, and from that, blindness, that cannot see the organization of the church, what it must be, when every day each one carries about with him and is constantly using, this body, which is composed of many members... Every one of these members is actuated by the head; and no two of them ever come into quarrel, ever have any difference of opinion, act in contrary ways as the hands do to break a string, it is only apparently; they are actually pulling together... You simply cannot have schism in the body which God has organized from the head. So then, since God calls for re-organization, let not a soul here be afraid that there is going to be confusion, or schism, or anything of the kind. There is no danger whatever except among those who hold not to the head." 1901 G.C. Bulletin, pp.41,42.

"Who is the church?--Those who look to the Head; those who are joined to the Head. 1 Cor.6:13,15,17. Then there is no difference how many members there may be, though we are only one on one side of the earth, and another on the other side of the earth, we two members will move together, and act together, because the Head Christ Jesus, the Lord, is organizing both. His will actuate both. He is the One who is doing that in both." 1901 General Conference Bulletin, Ibid, p.42.

This is truly the organization of Christ's spiritual body according to Gospel order! Is this not what we see examplified in the book of Acts?

sky

[Dr. Rich]

How sad they looked to Paul's words intead of the words of Jesus! The Adventist church has now come just as corrupt as the Catholic church because of the power it's leaders have over everyone else. Power corrupts!

[JonathanPenner]

Does the Adventist church really have power over me? I've never been controlled, manipulated, coerced, or persecuted by leaders in the Adventist church.

While I do believe we can do things better. And I know there are some corrupt power hungry people in church leadership (as Jesus predicted there would be). I couldn't go so far as to suggest that the Adventist church is as corrupt as the Catholic church.

The desire for effective and productive change within the church, will never be helped by exaggerated statement in regard to the existing church and leadership.

[JonathanPenner]

I've gotta say that if what you've shared sky, is what Jones truly spoke about. God gave the same recommendation to Willow Creek less than 100 years later, but the leaders of Willow listened. (Although I'm not absolutely certain we didn't.)

At the end of the day, 123 years have past since the recommendations where made. I still ask you sky, what would it look like today.

Please stop quoting what seems to be endless streams of Jones and Ellen White quotes. I want to know in practical 2011 terms what you are suggesting.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Isn't it amazing how history has been and is being repeated to the very letter?

sky

[...]

And while Dr. Rich takes a very strong and revealing stand in a comment following yours, no one is taking into consideration the concept of "corporate accountability." There are principles taught in the Bible and SOP that must be seriously evaluated here because they are "salvational issues." (I will not belabor the point by listing the many texts here.) I appeal to you who are struggling with your beloved church to look this matter straight on.

[phkrause]

Does the Adventist church really have power over me? I've never been controlled, manipulated, coerced, or persecuted by leaders in the Adventist church.

While I do believe we can do things better. And I know there are some corrupt power hungry people in church leadership (as Jesus predicted there would be). I couldn't go so far as to suggest that the Adventist church is as corrupt as the Catholic church.

The desire for effective and productive change within the church, will never be helped by exaggerated statement in regard to the existing church and leadership.

Excellent points JP. To me the leaders may have some way of controlling other leaders and also be able to stir the church in the wrong direction, but as far as individual members, those that are close with the Lord will not be controlled into anything. This is exactly what happen to the Hebrew Nation and the reason that they are no longer his chosen. I wont say that it can't happen to the Adventist Church, I just think there are to many that will not let this happen. To even suggest that the RCC is corrupt is doing God's job, and none of us are God.