skyblue888 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Jon, I don't have an opinion as to how things should look like other than what the Lord has already revealed, things which have been totally ignored for more than 120 years. "Position, place, never gives authority. Authority qualifies for the place. I will say it again; it must be a watch-word for everyone in this conference. Position never gives authority. But authority that a man already has from God, which God has put upon him, will qualify a man for the place to which God calls him; and if he has not that authority before he enters the place, he has not the authority when he is in the place. The view that place gives authority is precisely the principle of papal infallibility. The pope is not infallible before he is elected. Nobody claims that. He is only a cardinal before he is elected; but as soon as he is elected, then he is infallible; then he is inspired by the Holy Spirit because he holds his place. That is the papacy." 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.42. "Christianity is that God clothes men with authority; and whether they have any place or position or not, it is all right, they have authority. The man who is connected with the Head, the man who serves God, the man who lives in Jesus Christ, can never lose his place; for his place is with Jesus Christ, under the wings of the Almighty, and he is safe. Where was Jesus' authority?--when He did not have any position or any place? How could He have authority? It was in the truth which He taught from God. All men's authority, all true and right authority in this world comes to him through the truth of God which he receives." Ibid, 42. "The princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you." Matt.20:25,26. "What do the princes of the world do? They exercise authority. Now God has never given to any man in His church authority to exercise authority. That is the difference between the princes of the world and the princes of God; for we are princes of God. The princes of the world exercise authority; the princes of God have authority, and it exercises itself. Then there is no dominion among the princes of God. There is no lordship, there is none of the kingly spirit which was described to us. No; there are no territorial boundaries among the princes of God,--that this is my conference. It is God's. So, the princes of this world exercise dominion, exercise authority. The princes of the world who have no real authority exercise authority. The princes of God have authority but exercise no authority. The princes of God have authority, and that is enough to suit them; and God takes care of the rest so that no one is greatest, but only one is Master, and all of us are brethren." A.T. Jones, Ibid, 42. "There is no exercise of authority, there is no place for domination, among Christians; neither by Christians upon other Christians, nor by Christians upon people who are not Christians... Note that it is the princes of the Gentiles' that exercise dominion and authority over people; and it is 'them' --the Gentiles-- over whom this dominion and authority are exercised. And even though dominion and authority be exercised by men in 'the church,' they are still 'princes of the Gentiles' who do it. Christians do not do it, for, 'It shall not be so among you.' And even though they be members of 'the church,' over and upon whom this dominion and authority are exercised, and who allow it to be exercised over and upon 'them,' they are Gentiles all the same. Christians do not allow it to be done: for, 'It shall not be so among you." It is none but princes of the Gentiles who do it; it is none but Gentiles over and upon whom they do it; and it is none but Gentiles who allow it to be done over and upon them, in the Church. It cannot be done over or upon Christians: they will not allow it: for these have the word of their 'Leader and Commander,' 'It shall not be so among you.' No man can be loyal to Christ, nor true to His word, who allows any man in 'the church' or in the field of religion and faith to exercise any dominion or authority over or upon him. For Christ has commanded, 'It shall not be so among you.' Whosoever among Christians exercises such dominion or authority puts himself in the place of Christ. And whosoever allows it to be done to him, allows man to be to him in the place of Christ. 'Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the slaves of men.' 1 Cor.7:23. Whenever such thing appears, he by whom it appears is a prince of the Gentiles; and a prince of the Gentiles in the place of Christ. Whoever submits to it is a Gentile, and submits to a prince of the Gentiles in the place of Christ. That is the whole story of the papacy. And whenever that thing is manifest in any church, it is just so much of the papacy there." A.T. Jones. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 The legacy of 1903 is with us in this present day. What was in its infancy then, appears to be reaching its full stature now. To say that denominationalism, with all its attending evils, is not practiced in the church, is to look with clouded eyes. The only legitimate reason for the existence of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination is to help men. But when the denomination exists to be helped by men, and when men exist to build up the denomination and not the denomination existing to build up men, then the thing has perverted its purpose... When men are amenable to men comes increased control in the manner and way in which the work is conducted. The workers are crowded into the narrow confines of men's rules and regulations. The latitude that the Spirit of God needs to develop the work is narrowed, and His influence is weakened. Religious liberty is lost. "In 1901 the denomination was brought to the very threshold of the Christian and New Testament order. But instead of going on through the open door fully into Evangelical Christianity, in 1903 the whole order was reversed. The word then given to us was, 'The Lord wants the Holy Ghost to be King.' That is what He wants now, and always, and forever. Will we let the Lord have what He wants? Will we let the Holy Ghost be King? "On the principle of 1901 the Holy Ghost could easily be King. But the system of 1903 and now, of representation and delegates, carries in itself the whole principle of papal infallibility. And on that principle there is never any place nor any chance for the Holy Ghost to be King. "That is all I ask anywhere--simply that the Holy Ghost shall be allowed to be King. And that is now the one great issue of the Third Angel's Message. For here stands the great and mighty movement of Federation of churches and religion of and for all the world, passing itself off as 'the kingdom of God.' And the only way that it can be truly met is with the true kingdom of God. That movement of Church Federation is only the kingdom of man in the place of God. And Sunday observance is the sign and badge of it; while the Sabbath of the Lord is the sign and badge of the kingdom of God in His own place as God... "The true kingdom of God or the false kingdom of God--that is now the one chief issue of the Third Angel's Message. The true kingdom of God, is God in His own place as God, all in all. The false kingdom of God, or Federation of Churches and religion is man in the place of God showing himself that he is God." A.T. Jones. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
JonathanPenner Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 Jon, I don't have an opinion as to how things should look like other than what the Lord has already revealed, things which have been totally ignored for more than 120 years. Well I have to say that your reasoning does not make any sense in a world where God created us with freedom of choice, creative minds, and the ability to responsibly harness and use the resources he has provided us with. The wisdom from those who have gone ahead of us is one of the most power resources we can harness, if we can actually own it. Whenever I ask you for a specific personal response, you remain silent. Whenever I ask for your own thoughts on how you see organization in the church, you pull out a bunch of quotes. When I read the quotes and come back at you asking you to describe what the application of those quotes might look like. You seem to throw up your hands, and with a spiritualized tone, suggest that you are only sharing what the Lord has shown us. As though this absolves you of thinking any further. If everyone were to apply this process to the various other arena's of life, I suggest that our world would be worse off. Imagine turning my own thinking on "OFF" while I worked under Steve Jobs to create a new Apple product. What a frustration I would be to the company if I relentlessly quoted things IBM had learned in the late 50's. And when I was asked about how I thought it applied to what we were building at Apple, I just said, "Well that's what IBM said." Imagine courting a woman, while quoting her scriptures every time she asked you your opinion. Imagine if all Jesus had shared with us when he was here on this earth were direct quotes from the old testament. We would have missed all His parables and culturally applied teaching for the day. In fact if Ellen White had worked this process, she would have provided no value to our church. God has given us brains to think. Not simply regurgitate. Every single thing around us has it's connection to God. From the creation of a new car, to the development of a subdivision. Whether we are creating songs, movies, telling stories, writing books, or painting a picture, God has given us the raw elements to work with. Not only do we have the potential to work these resources, God expects us to. To turn off our brains and live our lives through the quotes of others, is to stop living. Life is an experience, full of thinking, feeling, sensing, and passion. It is not some dead repetition of quotes flowing from an experience someone else had. Understand that I am not saying we shouldn't read and quote authors. And I have also appreciated some of the quotes you have shared. But it should be for the purpose of adding their wisdom to our experience. A museum is of little to no value in and of itself. It's only value is when it is juxtaposed to current life. When it allows us to reflect, learn and grow. If we do nothing but quote, and then when someone asks us our opinion, throw up our hands, shrug our shoulders, and just point people back to the quote. The potential wisdom from the quote becomes like water off a ducks back. It never soaks in. It's never absorbed. It's like watering a lawn with plastic over top. It'll die and the water, no matter how wonderful, will provide no value. God provides us with HUGE wisdom through the Bible. He has added to that with writers like Ellen White and many others who have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. God is also no respecter of persons. He gives wisdom to all who seek it. The atheist physicist gains all his wisdom from God sources. But sometimes I think we become like the investor Jesus described that buried his talent. We are to scared to take a risk. To experiment, learn and grow our talents and gifts. We don't want to get it wrong. And we certainly don't want to miss doing what we were told to do. Obviously the guy with the 5 talents felt a level of stress. He also wanted to please the boss. But he also understood that it would require risk, trial and error, on the path to multiplying his Masters resources. Coming back to church organization. God has given his church all we need to accomplish His work. He has also provided our denomination, within His church, with all we need to accomplish a unique work He's called us to do. We have the resources. We have the people with gifts and talents needed for specific tasks. And we have those with gifts for strategically organizing and leading. To often though we think we'd better take the conservative path. We bury the talent and keep it safe. Or we quote the quote and expect people in a very different context to duplicate what was written. Instead we need to move to application, experimentation, beta testing, developing and relentless reviewing. Of course this must be done within the context of full submission to Christ. But to sit a quote quotes all day, I believe will result in Christ doing the same to us as He said happened to the conservative investor. "Then the man who had received the one talent came. “Master,” he said, “I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.” His master replied, “You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. “Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” - Matthew 25:14-30 (NIV) Pretty strong feelings Jesus expressed in regard to conservative, non-experimental, church workers who use excuses as to why we should remain small, why we should expect low returns on our evangelistic investments here in North America. If God is even a tenth as good as I believe he is, thousands will do anything to become part of His Kingdom if we just stop creating so many barriers. God is great, not small. He occupies the universe, not a box that we've created. We just need to allow others to more clearly see His image, not simply through our own lives (although that is essential). But ultimately through the community that is the object of His supreme focus. The community of oneness, the local church. Is the hope of the world. It is the revelation of God's image here on this earth. It is the ONLY thing that will pass from this world to the next. Of all protestant christian groups, our theology emphatically states that we will move from this earth to the next as one large body. Not a bunch of solo flights spread over time whenever someone dies. The local church, when it functions as the community of oneness Jesus envision in John 17, will change our world. Quote
skyblue888 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 "The Sabbath of the Lord is the sign of the kingdom of God, and of God as true King in that true Kingdom of God. Sunday observance is the sign of the false kingdom of God, and of man as false king in the place of God. And everybody who does not know and have God to be his King in the true Kingdom, will compromise and will observe Sunday to satisfy the law and authority of man. In other words, everybody who recognizes man in the place of God anywhere, will receive the sign of man in the place of God, and will wear the sign either in his forehead or in his hand... "That is now the great central issue, and the fast-hastening final issue of the Third Angel's Message in the whole world. Who shall be king--God, or man in the place of God? Which kingdom and which sign will you have? You can't have both... "I know that, with an air of horror, it is exclaimed: 'Why, according to what you advocate, the whole thing would be only a rope of sand.' I answer, No. In all that I have advocated the Holy Spirit is sole Sovereign, King, Guide, and all in all. And when that is allowed to be so, then by the mighty energy of that divine Spirit the sand is molten into a sea of glass reflecting the image and glory of God, and upon which stand the ransomed of the Lord singing in triumph the song of redemption... "Without the Holy Spirit human nature and all combinations of human nature in the church, OUGHT TO BE only a rope of sand. God forbid that it should ever be a rope of hemp or of American steel to bind God's people in bands and fetters and yokes... "I repeat: In 1901 the denomination was brought to the very threshold of the Christian and New Testament order. But instead of going on through the open door, fully into evangelical Christianity, in 1903 that whole order was reversed. And now, as officially written and confirmed and published, the denomination is openly and positively committed professedly to the Mosaic order but in fact to the first steps of the papal order." A.T. Jones. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 It is a disheartening matter when comparing the testimonies written in regard to the Apostolic church with those written about the Seventh-day Adventist church, to see that the same problem which developed in the former was well established in the latter by the early part of the last century. In both cases, the leading men believed that it was their responsibility to control and direct the workers in the field and to threaten them with withdrawal of support if they did not submit to their authority. The same spirit will always lead to the same result. Therefore the history of the early Christian church is an accurate forecast of the Adventist church's future unless, before it is finally too late, the evil can be seen and the process reversed. No movement in the past has ever escaped the mystery of iniquity once it has become established among them. All have fallen away and been replaced. There is nothing to indicate anything different in the present situation. In 1909 the following words of warning were sounded to the Adventist people: "I write thus fully, because I have been shown that ministers and people are tempted more and more to trust in finite man for wisdom, and to make flesh their arm. To conference presidents, and men in responsible places, I bear this message: Break the bands and fetters that have been placed upon God's people. To you the Word is spoken, 'Break every yoke.' Unless you ceaze the work of making man amenable to man, unless you become humble in heart, and yourselves learn the way of the Lord as little children, the Lord will divorce you from His work." Testimonies to Ministers, p.480. "God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people,' but the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." Special Testimony, Series B, No.10. (Testimonies to Ministers, pp.480, 481, (1909). sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Dr. Rich Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Sorry Sky, but my foundation for truth is the words of God, not EGW or even Paul. Jesus made it clear that there is only ONE way and that is His way. You can read the evidence in Jn. 14:6, 10:16 and Matt. 23:8-10. Interestingly the disciples attempted to get Jesus to pick a leader among them but Jesus made it clear that they are all equal and that there was only ONE teacher and leader and pastor--and that is Jesus Christ only. What unity we could all have IF we just stuck to what Jesus commanded and taught! Quote
JonathanPenner Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 I am running a poll to find out how many of the following values you would consider essential. Please select those you deeply agree with. Values - these are the foundational assumptions held by individuals in a local church, which are essential for a local church to achieve the mission God has called them to. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Do you think that Jesus accepts the vote of anyone? Will one's vote change anything? Mob rule is what people in a corporation get. Sadly, the narrow road gets out voted by the majority. Quote
skyblue888 Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Here is something to think about for "The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390. "To avoid useless conflict with the leaders at Jerusalem, He had restricted His labors to Galilee. His apparent neglect of the great religious assemblies, and the enmity manifested toward Him by the priests and rabbis, were a cause of perplexity to the people about Him, and even to His own disciples and His kindred. In His teachings He had dwelt upon the blessings of obedience to the law of God and yet He Himself seemed to be indifferent to the service which had been divinely established. His mingling with publicans and others of ill-repute, His disregard of the rabbinical observances, and the freedom with which He set aside the traditional requirements concerning the Sabbath, all seeming to place Him in antagonism to the religious authorities, excited much questioning. His brothers thought it a mistake for Him to alienate the great men and learned men of the nation. They felt these men must be in the right, and that Jesus was at fault in placing Himself in antagonism to them." D.A.450. Was it a mistake for Jesus to alienate the great and learned men of the nation?--It was not. Was Jesus "at fault in placing Himself in antagonism to them?"--He was not. But there were those who thought that He was. And why did they think so?--Oh, just because "they felt that these men must be in the right." And why did they feel that these men must be in the right?--Oh, just because they were "the religious authorities," "the leaders at Jerusalem." Just because these men occupied position and place, they "must be in the right," and, of course, just because of this, Jesus must be "at fault in placing Himself in antagonism to them." But in all this Jesus was not at fault in any sense whatever. He was eternally right all the time; and the real antagonism was not at all on His part. Therefore disagreement with church leaders, to dissent from "religious authorities," even to occupy an attitude of antagonism to them, is never, in itself, any evidence of error or fault. No man, no association or combination of men, ever has any authority because of any official position or place in the church of Christ, or in any church professing to be the church of Christ. And when any man or set of men ever dares have it in any church, it is because that church is of men only and not of Christ. Again we read, "In the kingdoms of the world, position meant self-agrandizement. The people were supposed to exist for the benefit of the ruling classes. Influence, wealth, situation, were so many means of gaining control of the masses for the use of the leaders. The higher classes were to think, decide, enjoy, and rule; the lower were to obey and serve. Religion, like all things else, was a matter of authority. The people were expected to believe and practice as their superiors dictated. The right of man as man, to think and act for himself, was wholly unrecognized." Desire of Ages, p.550. "Christ was establishing a kingdom on different principles. He called men, not to authority, but to service, the strong to bear the infirmities of the weak. Power, position, talent, education, placed their possessor under greater obligation to serve his fellows. To even the lowliest of Christ's disciples it is said, 'All things are for your sakes... "In matters of conscience, the soul must be left untrammeled. No one is to control another's mind, to judge for another, or to prescribe his duty. God gives to every soul freedom to think, and to follow his own convictions. 'Every one of us shall give account of himself to God.' No one has a right to merge his own individuality in that of another. In all matters where principle is involved, 'let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.' In Christ's kingdom there is no lordly oppression; no compulsion of manner. The angels of heaven do not come to the earth to rule, and to exact homage, but as messengers of mercy, to co-operate with men in uplifting humanity." Desire of Ages, p.550. That is precisely where I stand; and that is only what I preach from the Bible: the kingdom of God as it is in itself "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost:" the kingdom of God as Christ brought it to the world: the kingdom of God as it is in the individual soul; the kingdom of God as it is presently to be, covering the earth as the waters cover the sea; the kingdom of God in which on the part of the Governor the only principle is Government with the consent of the governed; and in which, on the part of the governed the only principle is, self-government in God and with God according to the will of God: that kingdom in which, accordingly, there being no place for any one to rule another: that kingdom in which the soul is left untrammeled: that kingdom in which no one seeks to control another's mind, to judge for another, or to prescribe his duty: that kingdom in which every soul enjoys his God-given freedom to think, and to follow his own convictions: that kingdom where there is no lordly oppression, nor any compulsion even of manner. That is what I preach. Just that is what I have been preaching, and that is what I shall continue to preach; for it is the kingdom of God and the gospel of that kingdom which is to be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations; then the end will come." A.T. Jones And that is precisely where I too stand and this is what I believe and teach as well. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
JonathanPenner Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 Do you think that Jesus accepts the vote of anyone? Will one's vote change anything? Mob rule is what people in a corporation get. Sadly, the narrow road gets out voted by the majority. Sorry Rich, I don't understand what you mean. We all vote all the time. When's the last time you decided NOT to go to some restaurant, store, or business? You voted with your feet. Do you attend a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall weekly? Probably not. You voted by your choice. Did you go to Walla Walla College instead of Western Washington University? Again, you voted. Are you a Mac or PC guy? You get to vote with your pocket book. With that in mind, Jesus always accepts my vote. If I choose life, or death, He honors my choice. He'll be deeply saddened if I choose death, but he will always accept my vote. Did the vote that elected Adolf to Chancellor of Germany change anything? I think so. Majority vote is not even a biblical model. Nowhere do we read that majority votes should be honored or followed. Most often leadership that touches the hearts of people changes things. And as far as the narrow road being out voted by the majority. Please expand that thought. Martin Luther King didn't have a majority, but he hit nerve in the hearts of others who wanted to see a little black kid playing happily beside a little white kid. His dream was contagious and people voted with their hands, feet, mouths, and bodies. The pole I posted is about understanding where those who have been following this thread would align themselves with a short list of core values. If you don't resonate or connect with even one of these core values in relation to how they would shape or support the actions of a local church. Then don't check any of the boxes and by default, that will be your vote. Quote
skyblue888 Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Do you see now what the Lord means when He says that we have put Him aside and accepted the devisings of men? Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
JonathanPenner Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 Do you see now what the Lord means when He says that we have put Him aside and accepted the devisings of men? I do see what the Lord means. Pushing God aside and not only accepting, but actually putting our trust in the "devisings of men" is pretty much the summation of our fallen nature. From Genesis, where Eve pushed God aside and said I think the serpent is right. I can do things better my way. To Revelation where those who are raised at the second resurrection rise up to take the holy city. This is the evil of our human heart. So can you help me understand what your point is? It feels like you are saying that because we are human and we have the option of following our human nature, we should avoid using our human abilities to organize, create strategy and systems that will allow ministry to flourish. That would be akin to saying I shouldn't ever work again for the food or cloths I need, because Jesus said don't worry about your food or cloths. Quote
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