Denominational System & Structure - Servant or Master?

[rodapp]

It seems that through the years we have drifted towards authoritarian leadership. The authoritarian knows he/she is right so they then move our representative system towards what they believe without adequate representation from membership. We need Bible centered reasoning instead of political design to get what we individually want.

Oh, I know that we have a representative system but many thinking people do not want to be subjected to a constituency session where they are expected to vote what has already been determined. We drift towards sending representatives who have an ax to grind. Often they are quite radical.

Members for Conference, Union, and Division Committees are picked by the leadership and thus can press their opinions and crowd out dissenting voices.

A quick solution to this could be dangerous. We need to study the research on authoritarianism and the dangers in our current representative systems and then prayerfully and carefully make changes.

May God soften all of our hearts in this age of unbelievable conspiracies and lack of trust.

[Gerr]

Come to think of it, you may have something about the questionable representative system that we have. You are right, the ones chosen as representatives to vote on GC matters are the same people that have every reason not to buck the agenda of those above them. However, a change in this particular area would not necessarily make any difference as to how the local churches impact the communities around them.

A few years back when I was living in SECC, I was one of two representatives from our local church to a constituency meeting. To my chagrin, I found out that there was only one slate of candidates for some of the positions we were voting on inclding the office of president. I stood up and protested what I thought was a travesty to the democratic process. I publicly expressed that it was no better than the communist system of just having one slate of candidates, having no alternatives to choose from. The representatives were merely stamping their approval to a predetermined agenda.

[JonathanPenner]

I have spent some time, but not done an exhaustive study.

I appreciate all you posted. The three questions I asked (don't know if you saw them) were not asked with attitude. I am honestly trying to understand what underlying motives drive your perspective on the local church and denominational structure.

That's why I asked about the relationships in your life with non-Christian people, your personal involvement in leading people far from Christ to become radical disciples, and if you have kids, their relationship with Christ.

There is no right or wrong answer. But for instance if I have few relationships of integrity outside the walls of the church, or at best relationships of tolerance with unbelieving family and friends, it will change my heart for lost people.

It's relatively easy to see a "Missing Persons" poster and walk away, unless that missing person is someone we know and love. Every single person you will ever lock eyes with, is one of God's missing kids. If it were my kid missing I would leave no stone unturned. I would organize search parties, and if the way the party was initially organized wasn't as effective as it could be I would look for a better way.

I have many friends outside the church. I pray for them. I long for them to see the beauty of Jesus Christ. I have walked with some of them as they have moved toward Jesus. But many times the church as it has functioned at a local level, in part shaped by the larger organizational structure, has NOT been of any use to my personal evangelistic efforts. In fact at times it has been at odds.

Like the apostle Paul, I have no desire to lead people to become cultural Adventist (or even cultural Christians). My only desire is that they come to know Jesus Christ and see the beauty of all He is, and then respond following Him in all areas of their life. We don't need to erect unnecessary barriers to the Kingdom. Like Paul said, why do we so often make it so difficult for people outside our religious contexts (Gentiles) to become followers of Jesus?

I AGREE 100% and more if I could that Jesus IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH. It is His Church. Not just the denominational one, but I mean the world Church. Anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus. It's His Bride. It is the ONLY thing that will pass from this earth into the New Earth. The Church is the single thing on this planet that God pours his SUPREME interest and energies into. The Church, whenever and wherever it is working right, is the ONLY thing God is doing on this earth. Whether it is aligned with a denomination, a publicly identified group of people, or simply emerges from a community that responds to Christ's love, the church is the hope of the world.

[JonathanPenner]

It seems that through the years we have drifted towards authoritarian leadership. The authoritarian knows he/she is right so they then move our representative system towards what they believe without adequate representation from membership. We need Bible centered reasoning instead of political design to get what we individually want...

A quick solution to this could be dangerous. We need to study the research on authoritarianism and the dangers in our current representative systems and then prayerfully and carefully make changes.

Well said Rod. I think this is part of what Sky is saying when referring to 1901 GC sessions. That we need be make sure we don't drift towards authoritarian models of leadership and organization.

And you are so right about making changes carefully and prayerfully. The first place to start is to pray for wisdom from God, then it would make sense to identify what is not working (within the context of truly understanding what it is we are called to accomplish.) Next identify some potential solutions. Beta test them. And when we find those that work, create a prayerfully thought out plan for implementing change. Because some of these changes could affect the employment of some, it is likely those who are not hired by the denomination (those who would be least tempted toward job preservation) who would be best suited to lead in some of these areas.

[skyblue888]

That we need be make sure we don't drift towards authoritarian models of leadership and organization.

JonathanPenner

__________________

Jon, the time for this type of admonition is over. It is no longer a matter of making sure we don't drift towards authoritarian models of leadership and organization for this order of things has been established for more than a century. More than a century ago the Lord warned us that we were indeed drifting towards authoritarian models of leadership and organization by saying that the General Conference was itself becoming corrupted with wrong sentiments and principles, that human inventions were made supreme, that plans contrary to truth and righteousness were introduced in a subtle manner on the plea that this must be done, and that must be done, because it is for the advancement of the cause of God. But it is the devising of men that leads to oppression, injustice, and wickedness. More than 120 years ago, the Lord warned that men were taking unfair advantage of those whom they supposed to be under their jurisdiction. These men were determined to bring the individuals to their terms; they would rule or ruin. They were following in the track of Romanism!

It was said that there would be no material change until a decided movement was made to bring in a different order of things. See T.M.359-361,363,366.

"Satan's methods tend to one end--to make men the slaves of men. And when this is done, confusion and distrust, jealousies and evil surmisings, are the result. Such a course destroys faith in God and in the principles which are to control, to purge from guile and every species of selfishness and hypocrisy." T.M.361.

In 1895 Mrs. White wrote:

"The high-handed power that has been developed, as though position has made men gods, makes me afraid, and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result... At the time of the first advent of Christ to our world, the men who composed the sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls whom Christ had given His life to free from the bondage of Satan were brought under bondage to him in another form." Testimonies to Ministers, p.361.

They were brought under bondage to Satan through becoming the slaves of men.

Two years later she wrote:

"Satan's skill is exercised in devising plans and methods without number to accomplish his purposes. Dissimulation has become a fine art with him, and he works in the guise of an angel of light. God's eye alone discerns his schemes to contaminate the world with false and ruinous principles bearing on their face the appearance of genuine goodness. He works to restrict religious liberty, and to bring into the religious world a species of slavery. Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God, will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. Whatever in our practice is not open as day belongs to the methods of the prince of evil. His methods are practiced even among Seventh-day Adventists who claim to have advanced truth." T.M.366 (1897)

14 years later she writes:

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct. God is in every place, beholding the conduct of the people who profess to represent the principles of His Word. He asks that a change be made." T.M.481 (1909)

In His love and mercy, He is still waiting for a change to be made.

The principles of His Word regarding the organization of the church were clearly presented at the 1901 General Conference.

Then You said, "And you are so right about making changes carefully and prayerfully. The first place to start is to pray for wisdom from God, then it would make sense to identify what is not working (within the context of truly understanding what it is we are called to accomplish.) Next identify some potential solutions. Beta test them. And when we find those that work, create a prayerfully thought out plan for implementing change. Because some of these changes could affect the employment of some, it is likely those who are not hired by the denomination (those who would be least tempted toward job preservation) who would be best suited to lead in some of these areas."

In that we would be like the Jews who are still praying for Messiah to come when He has already come or like praying for God to send the latter rain message when He has already sent it. God has already sent us the messages on righteousness by faith and organization. But I am afraid that these messages are resisted all over again.

The present order of things will continue and when the third angel's message is proclaimed in demonstration of the Spirit and power of God through men and women of God's own choosing, again the light from Heaven will be called excitement, and even a species of fanaticism, simply because it will be declared to be antagonistic to the "organized work".

"When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming up to the help of the Lord, they will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

sky

[Gerr]

However, the friends I rub shoulders with. The people I live among here in the Greater Vancouver region, are not going to tune into any kind of Christian radio. There is a less than 0.0001% chance of them tuning into 3ABN. Simply put, proclaiming the gospel may leave us feeling like we've done our job, but according to Jesus parable of the talents, fruitfulness was as important as faithfulness.

So then, is there something in the organizational structure that is holding you back from doing something more relevant than 3ABN or Christian radio?

[JonathanPenner]

So then, is there something in the organizational structure that is holding you back from doing something more relevant than 3ABN or Christian radio?

You are asking the wrong question. First to answer your question. I am doing all I can with the resources, talents and influence God has given me, to lead those who are far from Christ, to an awareness, knowledge, acknowledgment, and ultimately full submission in love to Jesus Christ.

Regardless of how the local church functions, or how the denomination is structured, I will respond to God's call in reaching the lost. Poor structures and systems are not an excuse to stand on the sidelines and wait.

However, I also believe the Bible teaches through and through that God is a God of excellence. That He has placed within us a desire to do whatever our hand finds to do, with excellence. Therefore when I look at how our financial systems are structured, or how our staffing is spread out across the denomination, or how effective we are at leading with a clear sense of mission, vision and values in local Adventist churches across North America, I believe we leave room for much improvement.

So to ask if there is something in the organizational structure that is holding me back from doing something more relevant than 3ABN or Christian radio? I would have to say yes and no. Yes, the structure is not setup to support my personal evangelistic efforts for the most part. And yes, this does hold me back from experiencing value and support from the church for the work God has called us to do.

However, does it stop me from starting and independent ministry like 3ABN or Christian Radio? Of course not. I can do whatever I choose. BUT unfortunately I do believe that the local church community is at the heart of what Jesus said would change the world. I'm not against independent ministries. In fact I believe there are many that contribute great value. However NONE of them will ever replace the impact of the local church when the local church is working right.

And how the local church works is in part linked to the systems and structures it operates under. To minimize this fact. Or to side step it by suggesting that we should just let a poor system go on, not worry about misuse of the resources God has provided us with, and just head out on our own to start an independent ministry, does not sit well with me.

But if an independent ministry is what is required in order to establish a better way of accomplishing the mission we were called to accomplish. Than I applaud those who step up. HMS Richards was one of those renegades. The rebels with a cause, who change the way we do things. Ron Gladden is another who has stepped up and started Mission Catalyst. There are others, and they are doing their best to find even greater ways to build the Kingdom in God glorifying ways.

Part of the issue here may be that I wonder how many actually have a clear sense of the mission we were called to accomplish, and a vision of what a healthy thriving local God honoring Biblical community really looks like (in it's varied cultural forms).

A book that compellingly digs into the theology of "The Church" is "Community 101 - Reclaiming the Local Church as Community of Oneness" written by Dr. Gilbert Belezikian it is a carefully reasoned and passionately argued plea for the church to fulfill its essential nature and calling.

I would highly recommend reading this book.

[Gerr]

So to ask if there is something in the organizational structure that is holding me back from doing something more relevant than 3ABN or Christian radio? I would have to say yes and no. Yes, the structure is not setup to support my personal evangelistic efforts for the most part. And yes, this does hold me back from experiencing value and support from the church for the work God has called us to do.

So is it the organizational structure that is keeping you from fully realizing your witnessing potential? Or is it:

1. Church is moribund, or at best lukewarm?

2. Failure to convince the church board of your project?

3. Lack of resources?

4. ?

[JonathanPenner]

I was going to personally respond to your question. But then decided that Ron Gladden in his book The Pivotal Design, does a good job of highlighting what I'm talking about. (Sorry for the long post)

"I was director of the Adventist Church Planting Center, and some friends had joined me on a pilgrimage to Dr. Lyle Schaller’s home. I was aware that Adventist churches, on average, are smaller than those in every other denomination, but we were planting new ones, and I wanted to get it right.

“I can point to hundreds of significant churches,” Dr. Schaller challenged, “but none of them is part of your denomination. Maybe I’m missing something, so help me out. Point me to the Adventist success stories. Where are the prevailing churches? Where do you direct someone who asks how to get it done right?”

He had us over a barrel, but he wouldn’t let up. “Every denomination has a percentage of one-talent pastors, five-talent pastors, and ten-talent pastors. Where is the fruit of the ten- talent pastors? All of your churches plateau at a rather small size. You have larger churches near your institutions, but they don’t grow. Can you explain why virtually every ten-talent pastor – after a five- or ten-year run – ends up leaving his local church?”

One of us finally spoke. “We can point to a hundred places where we’ve had bursts of success. But you’re right, it doesn’t last more than a few years. As soon as something starts happening, the pastor moves on, the budget is cut, or something else applies the brakes. We feel like we’re always playing catch up. That’s why we came to your house today, so you could bestow some wisdom!” We felt like six-year-old kids on the first day of school.

“First, look at results,” he advised. “Don’t let yourself be mesmerized by theories. Some people tell me that New Testament churches met in homes, so if we’re biblical we have to do the same. House churches are fine, but they tend to run their course and go away. You have to visit a developing country to find home-based churches that last more than a decade.

“Others have a preference for the worship and ministry style of Methodists in 1901. I like to remind them that pretty much everyone who went to church in 1901 no longer attends. You don’t need to alter the gospel, but the way you do church must constantly change in order to be effective.

“Second, in pretty much every city in America,” he continued, “God has raised up prevailing churches. They never stop reaching more of the lost and making more disciples. Their highest concern is the person who doesn’t know God. When you attend on the weekend, you step into a welcome, friendly environment. You experience energy and joy. Everything they do – the music, the preaching, their use of technology and the

arts – is exceptional. You learn to expect a transformational message. A high percentage of those who attend don’t have a church background.

“But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Look beneath the surface and you’ll find the church is a Spirit-filled body of people who are increasingly devoted to God. People truly care for one another. They love their church so they invite their friends. And supernatural life change happens constantly.”

“Let me make it simple.” Dr. Schaller doubled his intensity. “Systems produce what they are designed to produce. When a single congregation doesn’t fulfill its potential, you might need to replace the pastor or send him for some training. But when thousands of congregations underperform, you need to look at the system.” The two conference presidents in the room squirmed and longed for the golf course.

Dr. Schaller’s words were a concoction of wisdom and merciless sarcasm. “I will say it one more time: It’s not the people; it’s your system. If your goal is a new generation of small and struggling churches, you’re doing everything right!”

So when I say organizational structure I mean organizational structure. There are lots of personal things I can do and already do. I am also part of a local church that does provide as much support as it can along side my personal evangelistic efforts. However, if I stop for a moment, lift my head up from all the activity and start by considering the bigger picture. I have to be honest, what we are accomplishing is not what it could be if we were more effectively organized. And of course because we are part of the sisterhood of SDA churches, that requires denominational, not just local change. As Schaller said, "Systems produce what they were designed to produce."

And yes, I do believe there are other factors at work such as church members who are NOT sold out to Jesus Christ. I do think we often lack visionary leadership at a local level (however we do have to ask, is that the local leader, or the system that has clipped his/her wings). Also too many local congregations hold values (underlying assumptions) that are at odds with the mission. And yes, our administrative system with all it's layers and associated financial burden, is not of the lean and agile form it could take now that we live in 2011, and of course that does consume resources which would otherwise be available in the local church.

I have never had a problem with convincing the church board or leadership team of a project. Perhaps in part because I believe there needs to be buy-in and input from leadership, so convincing is not really the right goal. The goal is to see if an idea or project is God honoring, has the support of the broader church community, which (assuming leadership is seeking God for direction) confirms that the Holy Spirit is working through a plurality of leaders, and it's not just me with some renegade idea that I need to convince everyone of.

So I would have to say, it is about the system/structure.

[Gerr]

I don't know who Dr. Schaller is, but I disagree that the problem is the organization/structure. I still maintain that the problem is our individual and corporate spiritual condition.

A recent news report mentioned, to my surprise, that the SDA church had the highest percentage increase in NA during the last survey. Many SDAs used to make their way to Willow Creek, but that to me is like Azariah sending his messengers to inquire from the god of Ekron. The message from the God of Israel is: that a revival of true godliness is our most urgent need.

I have heard of a SDA church in OK which is growing tremendously, that when they reach a certain size, church members split off and start another church. This is being done without any structural changes above.

I still have not heard from you any specific ideas as to what changes you have in mind. Perhaps I missed it?

[skyblue888]

I disagree that the problem is the organization/structure. I still maintain that the problem is our individual and corporate spiritual condition.

Gerry

__________________________

Gerry, how can you honestly say that the present organization/structure is not a problem when the Lord Himself, over a hundred years ago, repeatedly asked that a change be made in regard to organization?

"What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference, p.25.

Of course we must first be joined to the Head if we are to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle. There can't be a revival of true godliness unless we are joined to the Head. Once joined to the Head organization according to God's order will take care of itself and we shall be built upon a different principle, the principle of self-government in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

The Lord cannot finish the work with the present order of things because the present order of things makes human inventions supreme. As long as this order of things continues all our missionary work will be to no avail as far as finishing the work and cutting it short in righteousness.

The Jews in the days of Christ crossed land and sea to make proselytes but Jesus told them that they made them twofold the children of hell then they were!

The true revival did not come until Pentecost and the disciples of Christ, opposed by the religious leaders of the day, were directed to seek for the lost sheep of Irsael before they finally turned to the Gentiles with their message

When the Spirit shall be poured out history will be repeated. Before the message swells into the loud cry to the world, the bearers of the message will first be seeking for the lost sheep of Modern Israel.

sky

____________________________

A recent news report mentioned, to my surprise, that the SDA church had the highest percentage increase in NA during the last survey. Many SDAs used to make their way to Willow Creek, but that to me is like Azariah sending his messengers to inquire from the god of Ekron. The message from the God of Israel is: that a revival of true godliness is our most urgent need.

Gerry

______________________________________

I agree with your comment about Willow Creek, like Azariah sending his messengers to inquire from the god of Ekron. But as far as a revival of true godliness is concerned, it is going to be an individual work which will be opposed by the "organized work" just as the disciples at Pentecost did not have the blessing of the Sanhedrin.

sky

[JonathanPenner]

Perhaps the fact that you don't know who Dr. Lyle E. Schaller is may be an indicator of one of our problems. While many Adventists leaders know and respect the work of Schaller, he is not an Adventist. Therefore because to many of us hold a strong denominational value that we should not be learning from people outside our denomination. We turn away from the learning we could gain from great men of God whom He has gifted, but not lead to join our movement. Even Ellen White herself found great value in learning from those who where not Adventists.

Schaller has written over 60 well researched and solid books over multiple decades focused on understanding the church, it's mission, it's organization, what it is that makes some churches flourish while others shrivel and die.

At the end of this post is just a sampling of his book titles. Besides which he has consulted not only leaders of the Adventist church, but local churches and denominations of all sizes, shapes and forms.

Now, I'm not a Schaller groupie and have only read a few of his books. But what I am saying is that when a Godly leader whom God has given a passion for His church, invests their life in studying, learning, and sharing all they can about the health of the local church and its varied organizational structures, I take note.

If in fact our ONLY problem was our individual and corporate spiritual condition (and I do believe that is ONE of our issues,) then wherever we see spiritual "revival" we should also see the kind of numerical growth that was experienced in the early church after Pentecost.

This thinking would also mean that people like Joel Olstean with his prosperity gospel and his hesitancy to discuss sin as an integral part of understanding the Christian life, would not be able to grow large churches where 20-30,000 people attend on a weekend.

The spiritual integrity of a local church and the way that church is organized and lead are two very different, but integral aspects of a healthy church. To say that all we need to do is become more spiritually connected to God and the church will thrive, regardless of organizational structure. Is similar to getting down on my knees in front of an empty building site and praying 24/7 that God will physically raise up a beautiful building.

While I know God could, He most often leads us to consult with the best architects, designers, landscapers, plumbers, electricians and builders, in order to get this job done. If we didn't organize ourselves and continually reorganize based on the most effective current building practices, our project would not even pass inspection. And no matter how spiritual strong or congregation was, we would not have a building to meet in, and likely our ministry would suffer.

Now we could also have the best team available on the planet to build this church along with lots of financial backing. But if we lack the spiritual maturity and relationship with God, we will not be lead by the Spirit and even if we could gather large groups of people, we would never be able to showcase to a desperate world, Jesus dream for a community of people who love and are loved, serve and are served, celebrate and are celebrated, know and are known. There would never exist a Spirit empowered community of believers who could change our sin sick world.

Organizational structures and systems, spiritual health; it's a both-and, not an either-or.

A few Lyle Schaller books:

1. Activating the Passive Church: Diagnosis and Treatment

2. Assimilating New Members

3. Beyond These Walls : Building the Church in a Built-Out Neighborhood

4. Building a Great Children's Ministry

5. Center City Churches : The New Urban Frontier

6. Choices for Churches

7. The Church Consultant : The Collected Works

8. The Comeback Congregation: Renewing a Troubled Ministry

9. Create Your Own Future!: Alternatives for the Long-Range Planning Committee

10. Creative Church Administration

11. The Decision-Makers: How to Improve the Quality of Decision-Making in the Churches

12. Discontinuity and Hope : Radical Change and the Path to the Future

13. Empowering Lay Volunteers

14. From Geography to Affinity : How Congregations Can Learn from One Another

15. How to Change the Image of Your Church

16. Igniting a New Generation of Believers

17. Leading Beyond the Walls : Developing Congregations with a Heart for the Unchurched

18. A Mainline Turnaround : Strategies for Congregations and Denominations

19. Making a Good Move : Opening the Door to a Successful Pastorate

20. The New Reformation: Tomorrow Arrived Yesterday

21. Put Your Best Foot Forward: How to Strengthen Your Ministry

22. Small Congregation, Big Potential : Ministry in the Small-Membership Church

23. Tattered Trust : Is There Hope for Your Denomination?

24. The Very Large Church : Is It in Your Future?

25. What Have We Learned? : Lessons for the Church in the Twenty-First Century

[JonathanPenner]

It's sad how arrogant we are. WE THINK WE KNOW IT ALL!!!! Couldn't and shouldn't go to Willow or any other church we could learn from.

Make me wonder why God would choose to give so many of his prophetic messages through people outside the walls of the institution. Why did God give Nebuchadnezzar the vision first and not Daniel? Why do we even listen to a prophecy from Balaam about Christ? And there are many more examples.

In fact Daniel wasn't an Adventist. Why do we listen to his council?

And in terms of the recent study about Adventists having the highest percentage of something in North America. Have you read the study and looked at the process that led to that data? It is easy to misinterpret research results without understanding the source and process of research.

[Gerr]

I disagree that the problem is the organization/structure. I still maintain that the problem is our individual and corporate spiritual condition.

Gerry

__________________________

Gerry, how can you honestly say that the present organization/structure is not a problem when the Lord Himself, over a hundred years ago, repeatedly asked that a change be made in regard to organization?

They did make the changes. Instead of a handful of men making the decisions in the early days, the present structure was set up. Now there is a clamore to streamline it.

____________________________

A recent news report mentioned, to my surprise, that the SDA church had the highest percentage increase in NA during the last survey. Many SDAs used to make their way to Willow Creek, but that to me is like Azariah sending his messengers to inquire from the god of Ekron. The message from the God of Israel is: that a revival of true godliness is our most urgent need.

Gerry

______________________________________

I agree with your comment about Willow Creek, like Azariah sending his messengers to inquire from the god of Ekron. But as far as a revival of true godliness is concerned, it is going to be an individual work which will be opposed by the "organized work" just as the disciples at Pentecost did not have the blessing of the Sanhedrin.

sky

The recent actions at the top seem to be contrary to what you are saying. An individual & corporate revival is being advocated and I believe they even have a booklet that they want everybody to have/read.

[Gerr]

It's sad how arrogant we are. WE THINK WE KNOW IT ALL!!!! Couldn't and shouldn't go to Willow or any other church we could learn from.

If I implied that there is nothing that we could learn from others, that was not my intention. What I intended to point out is the fact that the counsels for successful evangelism in the "red books" are ignored while too many of our people go tramping to Willow Creek.

Quote:

Make me wonder why God would choose to give so many of his prophetic messages through people outside the walls of the institution.

When people INSIDE the walls IGNORE the messages, THEN God has no choice but to send it elsewhere. And then we go tramping to their doorstep to learn from them what God had given His people in the first place. Take the health issue for instance. We were given the principles over a century ago, but too many of us either did not believe them or too timid to practice or test them. Now we are inviting experts like Drs. T. C. Campbell or Esselstyn (sp) (non-SDAs) to come & lecture to us about healthful living instead of the other way around. The same could be said about evangelism. We have a whole book on it.

[skyblue888]

I disagree that the problem is the organization/structure. I still maintain that the problem is our individual and corporate spiritual condition.

Gerry

__________________________

Gerry, how can you honestly say that the present organization/structure is not a problem when the Lord Himself, over a hundred years ago, repeatedly asked that a change be made in regard to organization?

[ClubV12]

For the most part, I think I'm glad I don't even understand the problem, assuming there is a problem of some kind. :)

[JonathanPenner]

Gerry, sorry to jump on you so fast. I actually wasn't focusing my comments at you specifically but at ourselves as Adventists at times.

Your last statements help me understand better. I'm not sure if you've been to any leadership conferences at Willow Creek, or have spoken with their leaders and attenders, but there is a significant difference between the spirit and heart behind Willow and the "bigness" and programmatic elements that people too often focus on.

I have been to Willow, stayed in the home of their leaders, and tried to understand the true spirit of Willow Creek. Perhaps one of the most compelling snapshots of the heart of this church is found in the book by Gilbert Belizekian, Community 101. He was and continues to be Bill Hybels mentor. His thinking is what has shaped Willow at a core level.

I believe your statement "When people INSIDE the walls IGNORE the messages, THEN God has no choice but to send it elsewhere" is so true. I do believe God gave us all the "successful evangelism" counsel we needed through Ellen White. In fact I remember over 18 years ago coming back from Willow Creek. I was in my late twenties and while I had a strong relationship with Jesus, I had huge angst with my local childhood Adventist church. I grew up Adventist and loved the church. But there were so many issues that had nothing to do with spirituality, but everything to do with making it difficult for "gentiles" to come to faith.

I still remember coming back from Willow and diving back into books like Acts of The Apostles, Sketches in the Life of Paul, and the compilation Evangelism. Juxtaposed to my study was all I had heard, seen and learned, both from those who spoke at the conference, but even more, those I spoke to about their personal experience engaging in the life of Willow. As I read what Ellen had been given by God so many years earlier, I had this growing sense of awe. God is no respecter of persons. What Willow has so powerfully created is built almost entirely on the principles God gave the Adventist movement to follow over 100 years ago. We didn't listen and follow, so God takes it elsewhere and leads others who will follow.

They've engaged those principles in a culturally relevant manor, which again is so powerfully outlined as the course of action in books like Acts of the Apostles and Sketches in the Life of Paul. I distinctly remember saying to others around me, "This church is a living example of what God wanted us to be over 100 years ago."

Now at the same time, I had HUGE push back regarding what many church leaders took and continue to take from Willow Creek. I remember one conference I attended with our church planting team. While there, we spent some time with another church team lead by Richard Fredericks. After a dinner together one evening, our team went off to debrief about the day. Almost without exception, every person on our team shared about their sense of discomfort with the attitudes and take-away learning's they experienced from Fredericks team. From our perspective, this team of people had missed the spirit of Willow, and were enamored with the biggness of Willow. It was as if they saw in Willow a path to their own biggness. And they were going to show the Adventist denomination how it was done.

It took only a few years for the true fruits to come forth. Damascus Road SDA church left the denomination and never came back. Today, it still exists, but to the best of my knowledge they have not only exited the organized structure of the church, but have also aborted the doctrinal teachings of the church. THIS IS NOT WILLOW CREEK!!! Nor is it because of Willow Creek. It appears most likely to be caused by pride filled individuals who saw the "Willow model" as their ticket to become big.

I've seen this over and over again. And not just in relationship to Willow. Whenever and wherever we have leaders who are not wholly and humbly submitted to God's leading in every last corner of their lives, we risk that they will become seduced by motives that are less than God honoring.

In the words of Oswald Chambers, "The characteristic of a disciple is not that he does good things, but that he is good in his motives, having been made good by the supernatural grace of God. The only thing that exceeds right-doing is right-being. Jesus Christ came to place within anyone who would let Him a new heredity that would have a righteousness exceeding that of the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus is saying, “If you are My disciple, you must be right not only in your actions, but also in your motives, your aspirations, and in the deep recesses of the thoughts of your mind.”

Too many times, we like the "idea" of being submitted to God, but in actuality prefer to do things our own way. We then see ministries like Willow and are either threatened, fearful, or most often blinded by our pursuit of significance not for God's glory, but for ours. To often our "doing" is what defines us, not our "being" in Christ.

[skyblue888]

That we need be make sure we don't drift towards authoritarian models of leadership and organization.

JonathanPenner

__________________

Jon, the time for this type of admonition is over. It is no longer a matter of making sure we don't drift towards authoritarian models of leadership and organization for this order of things has been established for more than a century. More than a century ago the Lord warned us that we were indeed drifting towards authoritarian models of leadership and organization by saying that the General Conference was itself becoming corrupted with wrong sentiments and principles, that human inventions were made supreme, that plans contrary to truth and righteousness were introduced in a subtle manner on the plea that this must be done, and that must be done, because it is for the advancement of the cause of God. But it is the devising of men that leads to oppression, injustice, and wickedness. More than 120 years ago, the Lord warned that men were taking unfair advantage of those whom they supposed to be under their jurisdiction. These men were determined to bring the individuals to their terms; they would rule or ruin. They were following in the track of Romanism!

It was said that there would be no material change until a decided movement was made to bring in a different order of things. See T.M.359-361,363,366.

"Satan's methods tend to one end--to make men the slaves of men. And when this is done, confusion and distrust, jealousies and evil surmisings, are the result. Such a course destroys faith in God and in the principles which are to control, to purge from guile and every species of selfishness and hypocrisy." T.M.361.

In 1895 Mrs. White wrote:

"The high-handed power that has been developed, as though position has made men gods, makes me afraid, and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result... At the time of the first advent of Christ to our world, the men who composed the sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls whom Christ had given His life to free from the bondage of Satan were brought under bondage to him in another form." Testimonies to Ministers, p.361.

They were brought under bondage to Satan through becoming the slaves of men.

Two years later she wrote:

"Satan's skill is exercised in devising plans and methods without number to accomplish his purposes. Dissimulation has become a fine art with him, and he works in the guise of an angel of light. God's eye alone discerns his schemes to contaminate the world with false and ruinous principles bearing on their face the appearance of genuine goodness. He works to restrict religious liberty, and to bring into the religious world a species of slavery. Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God, will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. Whatever in our practice is not open as day belongs to the methods of the prince of evil. His methods are practiced even among Seventh-day Adventists who claim to have advanced truth." T.M.366 (1897)

14 years later she writes:

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct. God is in every place, beholding the conduct of the people who profess to represent the principles of His Word. He asks that a change be made." T.M.481 (1909)

In His love and mercy, He is still waiting for a change to be made.

The principles of His Word regarding the organization of the church were clearly presented at the 1901 General Conference.

"When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming up to the help of the Lord, they will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

sky

We cannot afford to ignore the above.

sky

[skyblue888]

For the most part, I think I'm glad I don't even understand the problem, assuming there is a problem of some kind.

ClubV12, did you take the time to carefully and prayerfully study "An Appeal" by brother A.T. Jones from What Seventh-day Adventists Believe?

sky

[Gerr]

Gerry, let us not be so naive. It can only be a counterfeit revival because the present order of things is still according to man-made constitutions with a man at the top with by-laws, voting, resolutions, rules and regulations, etc etc

There is no room for the Holy Spirit to be King.

sky

So enlighten me. You have already labeled as counterfeit something that has barely started. How do you KNOW that? And what specific structural changes do you have in mind and what EGW recommendations that were not implemented?

[ClubV12]

Sky, no I didn't. I just skimmed over it. Frankly, I don't feel a burden to get into this issue with government and politics of the church. Perhaps in time, but for now, I think I need to stay focused on other issues.

One of my mentors mentioned the other day if I dig to deep I might get muddy. He's right, in my case, I need to refocus on my own personal connection with Christ and put away some of this "deep digging" for awhile.

I'm just very grateful the organized church has organized evangelistic meetings in small town like mine! :)

[Gary K]

It's sad how arrogant we are. WE THINK WE KNOW IT ALL!!!! Couldn't and shouldn't go to Willow or any other church we could learn from.

Make me wonder why God would choose to give so many of his prophetic messages through people outside the walls of the institution. Why did God give Nebuchadnezzar the vision first and not Daniel? Why do we even listen to a prophecy from Balaam about Christ? And there are many more examples.

In fact Daniel wasn't an Adventist. Why do we listen to his council?

And in terms of the recent study about Adventists having the highest percentage of something in North America. Have you read the study and looked at the process that led to that data? It is easy to misinterpret research results without understanding the source and process of research.

I was with you until you brought up Willow Creek.

I was in a church where the pastor thought Willow Creek was the best thing sliced bread. He was all gung ho about it. That pastor almost completely destroyed that church. He so thoroughly split it down the middle that basically nothing got done and the only type of organized outreach was having satellite evangelistic series. They brought in absolutely no new members.

There were a few of us who brought in new people through personal outreach, but the atmosphere they were brought into was not good. People stopped talking to each other over their theological differences, and some went so far as to interrupt sermons they disagreed with. Almost all of that behavior came from the people who wanted Willow Creek style change. They denied the SOP had anything of value for us, even though they had never studied the relevant writings.

During the middle of all this that pastor got caught having an affair. Things got really ugly after that.

This pastor was gung ho about Willow Creek because he saw growth numbers sparkling in his head. He saw "fame" for himself in making "his" church grow. What he didn't think was important was that the church produce Christians highly committed to Jesus Christ.

I see all this concern about about numbers rather than fully committed Christians as no different than what happened in the church of Rome. They brought in all kinds of evil just to make the church "grow" and that was the beginnings of the Dark Ages through the corruption came from it. Primitive Christianity was not valued and we see the result.

So, I'll take church based on primitive Christianity any day over a growth-based church that relies on attracting people through cultural attractions.

As to why the church isn't growing in NA, there are lots of reasons for that. Lack of persecution, members feeling they are rich and in need of nothing, an abundance of formal religion, a church that is filled with all winds of doctrine, etc.... IOWs we are a church that needs to get back to focusing on our personal relationships with God, and once that happens the people will come when they see Jesus in us. What the world needs is Jesus, and when we have Jesus to offer because He lives in us moment-by-moment, day-by-day, they will see the very fulfillment of their deepest needs and desires.

That is what Christ offered to the people, and that is what the disciples offered to the people after His death. They turned the world upside down inside of a decade, and people took notice of them, that they had been with Jesus. I would say that is real growth. Much better than Willow Creek by far.

[Gary K]

Sky, no I didn't. I just skimmed over it. Frankly, I don't feel a burden to get into this issue with government and politics of the church. Perhaps in time, but for now, I think I need to stay focused on other issues.

One of my mentors mentioned the other day if I dig to deep I might get muddy. He's right, in my case, I need to refocus on my own personal connection with Christ and put away some of this "deep digging" for awhile.

I'm just very grateful the organized church has organized evangelistic meetings in small town like mine!

I think you were given good advice. Too much theology often makes for a formal religion, not a personal one. You were wise to see the value in the advice.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Gary K,