Denominational System & Structure - Servant or Master?

[Woody]

Quote:

I was with you until you brought up Willow Creek.

Is this an experiential opposition? Or are you opposed to it out of ignorance?

I've worshipped at Willow Creek. I found it quite biblical and spiritual in nature. We can learn much from that church. That is if we are willing to follow the advice of our prophet and try new methods.

We can't afford to be ignorant in these the last days of Earths History. If you feel there is something wrong with the way Willow Creek functions - please outline them and how they are in opposition to biblical principles.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I was with you until you brought up Willow Creek.

I was in a church where the pastor thought Willow Creek was the best thing sliced bread. He was all gung ho about it. That pastor almost completely destroyed that church. He so thoroughly split it down the middle that basically nothing got done and the only type of organized outreach was having satellite evangelistic series. They brought in absolutely no new members.

There were a few of us who brought in new people through personal outreach, but the atmosphere they were brought into was not good. People stopped talking to each other over their theological differences, and some went so far as to interrupt sermons they disagreed with. Almost all of that behavior came from the people who wanted Willow Creek style change. They denied the SOP had anything of value for us, even though they had never studied the relevant writings.

During the middle of all this that pastor got caught having an affair. Things got really ugly after that.

This pastor was gung ho about Willow Creek because he saw growth numbers sparkling in his head. He saw "fame" for himself in making "his" church grow. What he didn't think was important was that the church produce Christians highly committed to Jesus Christ.

Sounds a lot like you may have been in the same church as my family. Almost a word for word replay of what happened.

[JonathanPenner]

[Stan]

My thoughts... just my thoughts.

The WC model has not turned out that successful with attempts in Adventism.

BUT DON"T THROW IT ALL AWAY.

Most of EGW books were written by non adventist.

One has to use common sense and spiritual discernment when reading anything.

Over the years, and this is nothing more than a GENERAL STATEMENT, those who have made the biggest noise against WC are in Churches with little purpose and mission, other than wishful thinking, and will need a headstone in 15 years for their church.

[JonathanPenner]

I was with you until you brought up Willow Creek.

I was in a church where the pastor thought Willow Creek was the best thing sliced bread. He was all gung ho about it. That pastor almost completely destroyed that church...

This is exactly what I have seen over and over. Like I said (and I hope you read it) too many people who look at Willow, see what their hearts lust after, not the work God is doing there. Should this lead to a conclusion that Willow is the cause of these problems. Just because I've seen many Sabbath keepers sexually molest their children. And many vegetarians who have affairs. Does not mean that I should conclude that Sabbath keepers are child molesters, and vegetarians are adulterers.

This pastor was gung ho about Willow Creek because he saw growth numbers sparkling in his head. He saw "fame" for himself in making "his" church grow. What he didn't think was important was that the church produce Christians highly committed to Jesus Christ.

If you knew the heart of the leaders around Willow. Fame is not their motive, numbers is not what they are all about. That is simply a by-product of God's blessing. So I can say with absolute confidence that your pastor NEVER saw the real Willow Creek. He only ever saw what his greedy, lust filled eyes, wanted to see. It was all about his Glory and not Gods. THAT could not be further from the truth of what Willow Creek's ministry is all about. I am so sorry you had to experience that. It's not unlike the women I know who have been molested by there Dads. One being an Adventist pastor, the other an Elder in good standing. This kind of stuff stinks and is from the pit of hell. But that doesn't mean the Adventist church is from hell.

So, I'll take church based on primitive Christianity any day over a growth-based church that relies on attracting people through cultural attractions.

I completely agree with this. And Bill Hybels would say exactly the same thing. We are never to be molded to the culture in order to attract large crowds. But the Bible and Ellen White speak endlessly of the need to be culturally relevant while remaining doctrinally pure. Paul's writing alone repeat this over and over again. Cultural relevance is not for the purpose of gathering a crowd, but is instead for the purpose of making it as easy as possible for those who are far from Christ to see Him, know Him, and come to serve Him.

What the world needs is Jesus, and when we have Jesus to offer because He lives in us moment-by-moment, day-by-day, they will see the very fulfillment of their deepest needs and desires.

So true.

That is what Christ offered to the people, and that is what the disciples offered to the people after His death. They turned the world upside down inside of a decade, and people took notice of them, that they had been with Jesus. I would say that is real growth. Much better than Willow Creek by far.

The truth of what turned the world upside down inside of a decade, was the supernaturally empowered community of oneness first mentioned in Acts chapter 2, but then expounded on all through the new testament. What if Willow Creek actually was a 20th century example of that community of oneness showcased in the early church? Would you recognize it? How would you recognize it?

[ClubV12]

Stan,

"Most of EGW books were written by non adventist."

I'm not sure what you mean to say, could you clairify?

By the way, it looks like the thrust of A.T. Jones dialog (posted by Sky) is about having a closer connection with Christ. So, one could say I'm following his advice as well as my mentors! :)

[Stan]

the books in her personal library.

[ClubV12]

Oh, yeah, I see what you mean. True that. I'm sure she was also picky about what books she would read, not just reading anything that came along or was the latest "popular" book of her time. But she was certainly well read, as well as the people who were working for her. They would suggest certain well written passages from other books to incorporate in hers. As she did herself from her own extensive reading sources. Bit's and pieces of other authors particularly well written passages into her own works. Sketches from the Life of Paul (that's a terrific read) contains quite a bit of that and as a result has taken some "heat" from the critics. No problem for me in that regard. "Borrowing" passages here and there from other writers was fairly common practice in her day. Whereas it's frowned upon or even illegal in our more modern time.

The big difference I've seen in comparing some passages in "Sketches" to the original book that passage came from is this. She writes with authority. The other authors write with an air of speculation or reasonable guess as to what might have happened. She re-writes the same passage in much the same way but says it DID happen this way or that. No guess work, no speculation, no reasonable deductive logic, it's a fact! Believe it,,, or not. :)

[Gary K]

Quote:

I was with you until you brought up Willow Creek.

Is this an experiential opposition? Or are you opposed to it out of ignorance?

I've worshipped at Willow Creek. I found it quite biblical and spiritual in nature. We can learn much from that church. That is if we are willing to follow the advice of our prophet and try new methods.

We can't afford to be ignorant in these the last days of Earths History. If you feel there is something wrong with the way Willow Creek functions - please outline them and how they are in opposition to biblical principles.

I've both read about Willow Creek, and what it is based on, from the people who started it, and experienced the effects of someone trying to implement it in a church in which I was very active.

Jesus tells us that the way to heaven is very narrow and that very few people will want to follow that very narrow path. It's such a narrow path that He ask if there will even be faith on the earth when He comes again.

So, when I see the desire to grow the church very large, and very rapidly, using "cultural relativity" I am concerned. As I pointed out before, that was what happened to the church of Rome. For all intents and purposes that desire destroyed both the church of Rome, and the primitive Christianity that existed there. That church stopped following the Bible, and to justify their actions claimed the head of their church had the right to change the law of God. They also claimed that tradition was the equal of the Bible, and that someone other than Jesus could forgive sin. I see no positives in that outcome.

[Woody]

Perhaps you might benefit from personally going to Willow Creek rather than relying upon one particular individuals take on what to do or what they go from the experience. IOWs "try it you might like it".

As I stated - Willow Creek is a fresh Biblical approach. I have yet to see anyone quote scripture to indicate that it is not.

[Gary K]

the books in her personal library.

Stan,

The books in Ellen White's library did NOT write her books. Furthermore, she was quite selective in what she chose to use from those books. Just because she recognized that they held some truth, and adapted some of the same stories, does not mean that she took those writings as gospel, as many times she drew completely different conclusions from the same stories.

Ellen White knew the truth for herself. She studied her Bible rigorously and was give further insight by God. That she adapted writing styles from others, and used the same stories out of the Bible, does not mean that those authors were her source of truth. All that can provably mean is that someone with a 3rd grade education taught herself to write well enough to have her own voice by studying how those authors writing style and voice. To extrapolate any further than that is to demean her and the work of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who leads us into all truth.

[Gary K]

Perhaps you might benefit from personally going to Willow Creek rather than relying upon one particular individuals take on what to do or what they go from the experience. IOWs "try it you might like it".

As I stated - Willow Creek is a fresh Biblical approach. I have yet to see anyone quote scripture to indicate that it is not.

I've read their literature. I know what they believe. I can't cite you chapter and verse anymore as it's been a few years since I've read what they have to say, but I disagreed with them then, and I haven't changed my beliefs since then. So, I doubt very much whether my opionion would change now.

As to going there, even if I had the resources, I don't have that inclination.

If you will read all my posts you will find out that I am not a "typical" Adventist in many ways. I've been a part of the world. I've seen the elephant. I've rejected everything the world stands for because only the only thing that makes sense out of this insane world in which we live is the God of the Bible. And, SDA theology is the only theology that presents a truly loving, caring, and merciful God that is just.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Perhaps you might benefit from personally going to Willow Creek rather than relying upon one particular individuals take on what to do or what they go from the experience. IOWs "try it you might like it".

As I stated - Willow Creek is a fresh Biblical approach. I have yet to see anyone quote scripture to indicate that it is not.

I've read their literature. I know what they believe. I can't cite you chapter and verse anymore as it's been a few years since I've read what they have to say, but I disagreed with them then, and I haven't changed my beliefs since then. So, I doubt very much whether my opionion would change now.

As to going there, even if I had the resources, I don't have that inclination.

If you will read all my posts you will find out that I am not a "typical" Adventist in many ways. I've been a part of the world. I've seen the elephant. I've rejected everything the world stands for because only the only thing that makes sense out of this insane world in which we live is the God of the Bible. And, SDA theology is the only theology that presents a truly loving, caring, and merciful God that is just.

Why would you suggest that a growing Christian Church is classified as the "world"? Your issue and problem is that you have decided you don't have the "inclination" to give Willow Creek a serious and honest look. Somewhere somehow you got this mistaken idea that Willow Creek represents the "world". You need to broaden your horizens. God expects us to use progressive methods of evangelism. You are holding back his work.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

the books in her personal library.

Stan,

The books in Ellen White's library did NOT write her books. Furthermore, she was quite selective in what she chose to use from those books. Just because she recognized that they held some truth, and adapted some of the same stories, does not mean that she took those writings as gospel, as many times she drew completely different conclusions from the same stories.

Ellen White knew the truth for herself. She studied her Bible rigorously and was give further insight by God. That she adapted writing styles from others, and used the same stories out of the Bible, does not mean that those authors were her source of truth. All that can provably mean is that someone with a 3rd grade education taught herself to write well enough to have her own voice by studying how those authors writing style and voice. To extrapolate any further than that is to demean her and the work of the Holy Spirit. He is the one who leads us into all truth.

[ClubV12]

I don't have an inclination to go to Willow Creek either. There is enough to study, to read, to contemplate, to do without running after the latest "good thing" that comes around. Maybe God is working with and through them, maybe not, I don't know. In fact, I don't care. A really, really large church in and of itself raises alarm bells with me, I don't care who is sponsoring it.

Whether it represents the "world" or not, I don't know. But either way, my decision is hardly "holding back the work of God".

[ClubV12]

Woody posts this EGW quote:

"Tell Mary to find me some histories of the Bible that would give me the order of events. I have nothing and can find nothing in the library here.-- "

That sounds like she is looking for a particular referrence point to some event or events and the historical order in which they unfolded. I am convinced her visions did not often detail a specific time line, especially when such points are already available from historic documentation. As a good researcher it shows how careful she was to verify a time line of known history. Interesting insight as to how she worked, thanks for posting that Woody.

[Gary K]

Woody,

If you're going to reply to me, the least you can do is be honest. I never said WC was the "world". I made sure I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth and then beat down the straw man you created.

WC doesn't have the same resources that the SDA church has, and I respect and trust the resources we have that they don't much more than any extra-biblical resources they have used.

Just because you think the WC approach is Biblical doesn't mean that I agree with you on that. WC is about rapid growth. That's what every every person I've ever been around has so admired about them. They grow fast and have gotten very big.

Where does that fit the Biblical model? Where does that fit the advice given us by Ellen White? Jesus didn't tell his disciples to build great churches. He said to go out into the highways and byways of the world and teach the people the same things I've taught you. That His disciples followed His instructions is very clear from history.

We, as a church have never really given Ellen White's advice a chance. We've formalized much of it, and flat out ignored the rest of it. She said, don't congregate together. Spread out. Seek areas where there are no churches and start working there. That was her advice to individuals. How many SDA's have done that? Very, very, few.

Have you ever lived in a community that has large SDA churches, college/s, academy/ies, and grade schools? The majority of those Adventists become formal Christians. They go to church but do nothing for anyone else. They don't know God for themselves. Sabbath afternoon entertainment is picking apart the sermon. Real spirituality disappears. Been there, done that. Watched it in my friends and parents.

So, why should I need to go to another source when I can see the consequences of ignoring the advice we've been given already? It's not that we haven't been given great admonition in how to grow our church, but that we have ignored that admonition.

Get really involved in teaching someone else about God, and who He is. You'll find, like Ellen White has said, that you will be driven to your knees and your Bible to find out how to lead that person to Christ. Your spiritual life will grow by heaps and bounds. Fulfill the mission that Jesus gave to you. Become a fisher of men yourself. If all of us did that this church would grow beyond our wildest dreams. Its growth would be in committed Christians anxious to spread the the truth about who God really is, because we would know who God really is for ourselves, and we would be reflecting Jesus in what we do and say.

We wouldn't be saying that God can't change us. The very fact that God has changed us would be our best witnessing tool.

[Gail]

Quote:

Get really involved in teaching someone else about God, and who He is. You'll find, like Ellen White has said, that you will be driven to your knees and your Bible to find out how to lead that person to Christ. Your spiritual life will grow by heaps and bounds. Fulfill the mission that Jesus gave to you. Become a fisher of men yourself. If all of us did that this church would grow beyond our wildest dreams. Its growth would be in committed Christians anxious to spread the the truth about who God really is, because we would know who God really is for ourselves, and we would be reflecting Jesus in what we do and say.

We wouldn't be saying that God can't change us. The very fact that God has changed us would be our best witnessing tool.

Like! Like!

[ClubV12]

My local Pastor, during a sermon one Sabbath, mentioned that he was not interested in baptizing people "for the numbers". He wanted folks who understood what they were getting into and were committed to the ideals. He mentioned there are a number of reasons folks might join a church. "Networking", it's just good for business for one thing. A sense of community, friendly people and a feeling of belonging. Intellectual stimulation, a chance to get out of the house. There are many reasons, some of them good reasons. But the best reason is to sincerely want to walk with God, everything else is secondary.

These very large churches make me wonder about the best reasons for being there.

[Gary K]

I've read that EGW was frustrated that her library was not extensive enough for her needs:

Quote:

Well, my dear Willie and Edson and Emma, let us draw very nigh to God. Let us live daily as we would wish we had lived when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, and when everyone will be rewarded according to his works. I am not cast down nor discouraged, but I feel weighed down as a cart beneath sheaves. We have had several days of beautiful weather. It has commenced raining this afternoon. Tell Mary to find me some histories of the Bible that would give me the order of events. I have nothing and can find nothing in the library here.-- Letter 38, 1885, p. 8.

Woody,

So what? She could have had 10,000 books in her library and that doesn't mean that she would come to the same conclusions they did. She often came to diametrically opposing conclusions from the same stories that were in books she read. That means she didn't study them for "truth". She obtained truth from the Bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

EW read very widely as part of her self-education as all she had was 3 years of schooling. She used that to teach herself to write, to develop her own arguments against un-Biblical ideas and to promote truth.

I love her writing style. She is almost lyrical in how she writes. That points to a thorough self-eduation in how to write. The only way to do that is to read, read, read, and study, study, study how sucessful authors do things.

Ellen White advocated very strongly that anyone who did not have a formal education should educate themselves. She was simply practicing what she preached in having a large library. If she had always "come to the same conlusions" as the books she read, then, yes, she got what she knew from other sources. That is not the case. Yes, she agreed sometimes. She disagreed enough to show completely independent thought, and her own knowledge of truth and error.

I have a fairly large library too, for a poor man. I own hundreds of books. The vast majority of those books are on subjects I am interested in. A few are just for the pleasure of reading. I have some formal schooling, but most of my education has been of the self-education type.

Do I accept everything I read as truth? Nope. Do you? The basis of your slander against Ellen White is that she did. God didn't teach her truth, other authors did. That's substance of all you've had to say on this subject. It's a huge fallacy that you would be insulted over if someone applied it to you.

[JonathanPenner]

Maybe God is working with and through them, maybe not, I don't know. In fact, I don't care.

I actually make it a practice to look for where God is working in our world, both inside the denomination, inside the Christian church at large, and in the world around us. I do care about what God is doing wherever He is doing things.

A really, really large church in and of itself raises alarm bells with me, I don't care who is sponsoring it.

So what kind of alarm bells do you think would have gone off in your head if you had been living 2000 years ago, in the days described in Acts chapter 2? Thousands were added in a day. That sounds large to me.

Size should not be what it is about. Unfortunately to many Adventists either take the "we have a tough message and only a few people will ever respond" mentality. Or we have the proud, arrogant "we have the truth" and if we can learn how to be BIG like Willow, with our truth that will be a win win.

The fact is, Willow Creek NEVER aimed to be big!!! Their aim was to create a God honoring Biblical community of people who devote themselves 100% to God. Then with Jesus love filling their hearts, they organized themselves in the most effective ways they could to reach their friends, neighbors, family and acquaintances with the life transforming message of Jesus.

This church calls it's members to a higher level of spiritual accountability than most Adventist church communities I've ever been in.

It's too bad Willow Creek is so large, because it's largeness and all that it does with excellence, leaves many who only look at it from the outside, lusting after the bigness and the modern programming etc.

Whether it represents the "world" or not, I don't know. But either way, my decision is hardly "holding back the work of God".

If some company in Chicago discovered a natural remedy to cure MS and you decided to continue doing things your own way by getting patients on the CHIP program, instead of learning what these "others" had discovered, would you be holding back the work of healing MS patients?

When Jesus talked about the guy who put his talent into savings instead of a real investment, He said that guy would be thrown out for being too conservative with what he had been entrusted. On the other hand we rarely talk about the challenges of the multi-talent guys. They had to take risks, do their research, learn all they could from others, in order to double their masters investment.

Sometimes our lack of willingness in learning from the various places God would have us learn, can cost others and ourself.

[JonathanPenner]

If you're going to reply to me, the least you can do is be honest. I never said WC was the "world".

Gary, for what it's worth, I didn't hear you say Willow is of the world either.

WC doesn't have the same resources that the SDA church has...

Is this really accurate? I love what God has given us through Ellen White's ministry. However, her ministry is a blessing not because of her, or the Adventist church, but because she was willing to be used by the Holy Spirit.

So I would question the idea that somehow we have a corner on the Holy Spirit. That the Holy Spirit could and would never give as much to other Christian groups as He has to ours. That actually sounds similar to how Jesus disciples felt about other people casting out demons in Jesus name. Jesus had to straighten them out and let them know, they weren't the only ones His Father chose to work through.

At the end of the day. If we look throughout all history, we see that God was not impressed or moved by the people who had the greatest repositories of "truth." What seems to resonate most deeply with the heart of God as found in story after story in the Bible, are those who respond to and live out the truth he reveals.

As a general rule, I would suggest that there is a higher percentage of Adventists who intellectually know "the truth" but don't live in it, relative to say a church like Willow. On the other hand, truth to be understood must be lived. We can only possess what we experience.

...WC is about rapid growth. That's what every every person I've ever been around has so admired about them. They grow fast and have gotten very big.

Your key statement here is "That's what every person I've ever been around has so admired about them."

If all I admired about Jesus was how muscular he must have been. Working everyday in the carpentry shop. And all I ever shared was how impressed I was with the fit, healthy, body Jesus must have had. Would it be fair to say that Jesus was all about having a hot body?

I don't know if anyone is reading my posts, but for the umpteenth time, Willow Creek's growth is a by-product not the goal. Mother Teresa is famous the world over. Was that her goal. Did she hold dying people in her arms, so she could become famous? NO! Of course not. She shared Jesus love with dying people because she was simply responding to the call of God on her life. The fame was a by-product.

Where does that fit the Biblical model? Where does that fit the advice given us by Ellen White? Jesus didn't tell his disciples to build great churches. He said to go out into the highways and byways of the world and teach the people the same things I've taught you. That His disciples followed His instructions is very clear from history.

When I see that at times thousands were added in a day. At other times persecution drove them to huddle in home churches all over the countryside. You are right, the disciples followed His instructions.

So whether thousands or 1 person comes to Christ and matures, is not the goal. BUT the goal of the great commission is that as many as possible would come to know Christ and serve him with their lives. Therefore the goal may result in thousands, or tens, or ??? But the number is the by-product of faithfulness and fruitfulness.

Where do you ever read that Jesus only wanted a few people to come to know him. That only small groups of people will be recognized as followers of His. That anything larger than...100? 200? 500? 1000? 10,000? could not truly be a community of authentic God honoring followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ?

We, as a church have never really given Ellen White's advice a chance. We've formalized much of it, and flat out ignored the rest of it. She said, don't congregate together. Spread out. Seek areas where there are no churches and start working there. That was her advice to individuals. How many SDA's have done that? Very, very, few.

You are right about following the advice God gave through Ellen. That is what I find interesting about Willow Creek. If you were to really understand it's ministry, you would see an endless implementation of the principles given to us in Ellen White's writings.

Imagine for moment that Willow Creek was a Seventh-day Adventist church. I is doing what Ellen described. Over the past decade, Willow has started multiple additional campuses, and has partnered to use their strength to support all kinds of other churches.

However Willow still only reaches less than a quarter of one percent of the population in the Chicagoland area. Even if we as Adventists wanted to touch just 1% of the population in that area, we would need to add at least three or four more churches the size of Willow Creek.

Have you ever lived in a community that has large SDA churches, college/s, academy/ies, and grade schools? The majority of those Adventists become formal Christians. They go to church but do nothing for anyone else. They don't know God for themselves. Sabbath afternoon entertainment is picking apart the sermon. Real spirituality disappears. Been there, done that. Watched it in my friends and parents.

Again you are so right on! Because of the values we hold, the underlying assumptions that drive our thinking and decision making, we don't do well in large Adventist communities. But is that the fault of large gatherings, or the underlying values that drive our thinking? Willow Creek definitely has a very different set of values than are held by most Adventist communities. This is likely the greatest cause for calamity whenever someone tries to bring something "Willow" into a local Adventist church.

Unless you understand the values that drive people, companies or organizations. Actions and surface changes will spin off in all kinds of unpredictable directions.

Because of the core assumptions/values that Willow Creek leadership and core attenders hold deeply, they have created a RADICALLY different kind of community, than what we see at almost, if not ALL of our large SDA institutions.

So, why should I need to go to another source when I can see the consequences of ignoring the advice we've been given already? It's not that we haven't been given great admonition in how to grow our church, but that we have ignored that admonition.

The short answer is you shouldn't. If another source is simply following the same path that leads away from the council God has given us. Than I wouldn't go either.

However, recognizing God's work, when it is not packaged in a familiar wrapper, is not quite so easy. So I would caution you in terms of being quick to write off something that God may have intended to be a huge blessing to His church at large. I have watched as many non-Adventist church leaders have learned from Willow Creek and gone on to create highly impacting ministries for God. Some of which teach about the Seventh-day Sabbath, the state of the dead as we understand it, hell as we believe the bible teaches, and many other teachings we feel our held by us exclusively.

No where in the Bible do I ever get the sense that God wasn't willing to work with "other" people. We need to look out for where God is working, and not hold to the idea that we already know the "allowable framework" that God will work within.

Get really involved in teaching someone else about God, and who He is. You'll find, like Ellen White has said, that you will be driven to your knees and your Bible to find out how to lead that person to Christ. Your spiritual life will grow by heaps and bounds. Fulfill the mission that Jesus gave to you. Become a fisher of men yourself. If all of us did that this church would grow beyond our wildest dreams. Its growth would be in committed Christians anxious to spread the the truth about who God really is, because we would know who God really is for ourselves, and we would be reflecting Jesus in what we do and say.

This is the sad statement I hear far to many revert to out of lack of vision, or discouragement with our church as a large body of believers.

Clearly the Bible teaches both/and not either/or when it comes to personal evangelism and building the larger church community. Ellen White writes lots of material on this. Again you are so right about personally sharing Jesus Christ. In fact it goes one step earlier and that is to engage in a relationship with Jesus where you are willing to devote your entire life to Him and His service.

With a personal relationship with God and in perpetual growth mode, a person then has something of value to share with others. To often Evangelism is thought of as an event or series of meetings or something we DO. When in actual fact it is something we are, both personally and corporately.

As Jesus said just before going to the cross. When my people who are called by my name, humble themselves, allow the Holy Spirit to fill them, and engage in the same oneness of relationship with each other, that You (God) and I (Jesus) have, the world WILL KNOW that You (God) sent me.

We wouldn't be saying that God can't change us. The very fact that God has changed us would be our best witnessing tool.

So true.

[ClubV12]

"...if you had been living 2000 years ago, in the days described in Acts chapter 2? Thousands were added in a day. That sounds large to me." It's a large number, but there is no way those "thousands" then built a church and everyone attended it.

They spread out all over the world.

I have no particular burden to support or denigrate what some mega church in Chicago is doing. I have work to do right here in my home town. If and when any lessons learned (like some new medical treatment) "trickle down" to my town I'll take a look at it. But I'm not about to fly to Chicago, rent a hotel room and a car just to see what all the fuss is! :)

[JonathanPenner]

Reading Acts of the Apostles today I noticed a couple interesting statements.

"Summoning a meeting of the believers, the apostles were led by the Holy Spirit to outline a plan for the better organization of all the working forces of the church." AA89

Did "The Head" outline the plan, or was it the apostles, led by the Holy Spirit, who outlined a plan for better organization?

"The Thessalonian believers were greatly annoyed by men coming among them with fanatical ideas and doctrines. Some were “disorderly, working not at all, but ... busy-bodies.” The church had been properly organized, and officers had been appointed to act as ministers and deacons. But there were some, self-willed and impetuous, who refused to be subordinate to those who held positions of authority in the church." AA261

Sounds like "officers," people who hold an office within an organization, had been appointed. Was this against God's plan? Could the church not have functioned better without mans organization? It doesn't sound like it here. God leads and inspires, but we must strategically and practially respond and organize according to His leadership.

Sky, I just don't understand where your picture of church organization is coming from and more importantly, where it leads.

[skyblue888]

Jon, in order to answer your question, one needs to go back and study our history in the light of the Testimonies.

Eighteen years after the church had been formally organized,(1863), its work could be seen to be progressing at more than a satisfactory rate in all fields. A willingness to labor was expressed, and activity could be found everywhere. But while on the surface the work seemed to be progressing smoothly, with the Lord's blessing, in reality there lurked a condition which had supplanted God and could not be allowed to exist. Ellen White counseled on this point. In reference to this grave situation, she wrote:

"The steady progress of our work, and our increased facilities are filling the hearts and minds of many of our people with satisfaction and pride, which we fear will take the place of the first love of God in the soul. Busy activity in the mechanical part of even the work of God may so occupy the mind that prayer shall be neglected; and self-importance and self-sufficiency, so ready to urge their way, shall take the place of true goodness, meekness, and lowliness of heart. They are more ready for active labor than for humble devotion, more ready to embrace in outward religious service than in the inner work of the heart. Meditation and prayer are neglected for bustle and show." Testimonies, Vol.4, p.534 (1881)

The tendency to rely on human methods and plans waxed stronger despite repeated entreaties from the servant of the Lord:

Seven years later:

"Now it has been Satan's determined purpose to eclipse the view of Jesus and lead men to look to men, and trust to man, and be educated to expect help from man, but not looking to Jesus in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered. Many had lost sight of Jesus and they needed to have their eyes directed to Him, to His divine Person, to His merits, and to His changeless love for the human family." Testimonies to Ministers, pp.93,92.

Acceptance of this message meant a complete rearrangement of the principles by which the work had come to be directed. The workers had come to be answerable to a few in position of supposed authority; and the work, progressing rapidly as it seemed to be doing, was in reality bogging down!

The problems which were in discussions, and which God desired to be corrected, were matters of organizational reform. A few men directing the work as a whole. The church was being educated to look to man and expect much help from man. The leaders were as gods to the people; at least that is how God viewed the matter:

"The righteousness of Christ by faith has been ignored by some; for it is contrary to their spirit and their whole experience. Rule, rule has been their course of action. In order to reign and become a power, they employ Satan's methods to justify their own principles. They exalt themselves as men of superior judgment, and they have stood as representatives of God. These are false gods." Testimonies to Ministers, pp.364,364 (1895)

"To place men where God should be placed does not honor or glorify God. Is the president of the General Conference to be god to the people? Are the men in Battle Creek to be regarded as infinite in wisdom? When the Lord shall work upon human hearts and human intellects, principles and practices different from this will be set before the people. 'Cease ye from men.' The Lord has a controversy with His people over this matter." Ibid, pp.375,376. (1896)

"Cease ye from men" was one of the focal messages of the 1888 message and it was flatly rejected.

to be continued