Denominational System & Structure - Servant or Master?

[JonathanPenner]

Then why do we hear of organization in heaven? Why do did God ask Moses to organize the Israelites under His leadership? Why did the Apostles organize the early church with leaders responsible for the care of varying needs, freeing up the Apostles to use their gifts in teaching? Why did Paul organize different churches in different ways, at times encouraging even seemingly contradicting local church structures?

I wholeheartedly agree with you that we must have a spiritual connection with Christ. And that without that connection all the organizational skills we can muster, will be of little value to the building up of God's Kingdom. Instead we are more likely to produce a human institution of religious focus, devoid of the power of God.

But to talk as though we should turn off our minds, avoid using our God given gifts, and let Jesus physically organize the church for practical daily service, is a concept I cannot reconcile against all God created.

Can you give me some real life examples of what your thinking looks like? Can you direct me to any documented examples of what you are talking about?

[skyblue888]

Like I said, we need to study the message that God sent to us on organization from the 1901 General Conference. If you are interested, I will post a few excerpts.

sky :)

[JonathanPenner]

I am interested. This morning I was reading Messenger of the Lord on the White Estate site. http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt17.html

Again I find a picture of organization within the context of God's Kingdom principles. The two are not mutually exclusive.

"In the early years of the Adventist experience, the lack of organization led to various problems and disillusionment. Self-appointed ministers preached what they pleased; even the “appointed” traveled without salary or paid expenses. Divisions arose in the scattered groups of believers, and no method for dealing with divisive heresies existed. Whatever church properties they used were held in the name of some individual member; when the member died, the property passed to relatives, some of whom were not church members. By 1853, James and Ellen White were urging church organization to eliminate “uncredentialed” ministers and to establish a stable basis for owning church property.

But this plea for organization was met with strong resistance. Organization for many was a “return to Babylon.”11 Opposers to organization still felt the sting of the organized churches that refused the Millerite call. The religious freedom that Adventists had been enjoying for a few years, they did not want to exchange for the cold blanket of an organized church. Organization, for them, was inconsistent with the freedom of the gospel."

She then notes something important to keep in mind.

"In 1892 plans were being formulated that would foster a greater centralization of power in Battle Creek leadership. On December 19 Ellen White wrote a fifteen-page message from Australia to the leadership in Battle Creek. She reviewed the blessings of organization “that God gave us special light upon. . . . The system of organization proved a grand success.” But she also pointed out the dangers of bureaucratic machinery—that some of the present procedures that seemed burdensome were not caused by organization, but by its abuse. She further noted: “In reviewing our past history, having traveled over every step of advance to our present standing, I can say, ‘Praise God!’ As I see what the Lord has wrought, I am filled with astonishment and with confidence in Christ our Leader. We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history.”

As she told leaders at the 1901 session "“You have no right to manage unless you manage in God’s order."

[Gerr]

You guys who want reorganization, what changes would you make?

Let me reiterate what I said before: The most perfect form of governance will fail as long as it is run by people tainted with sin. That doesn't mean we ought not to strive for what works best.

Monarchy, the most undesirable form of governance on this planet that I could think of, is what heaven has. Yet it works best, because the very King who rules, does so with absolute wisdom, justice, and power. Furthermore, a King who is willing to stoop down and wash the feet of one of His lowliest and filthiest creatures.

[Stan]

We do have a structure that is incredible, we have gone from about 1 adventist for every 500,000 people to about 1 person in every 200 world wide, visiting an adventist church every week.

We can see the home plate from here.

That being said, many are disappointed with the growth and mission of the Church in North America, especially the established churches that are lead by 3rd-4th generation adventists.

HOWEVER much of the conversations on this really has to do with a certain 10% of income, and wanting to use that for the local Church.

I say, we need to focus more on the 90%

[Stan]

woud encourage everyone to "facebook like" this that button is on the bottom left.

[phkrause]

You guys who want reorganization, what changes would you make?

Let me reiterate what I said before: The most perfect form of governance will fail as long as it is run by people tainted with sin. That doesn't mean we ought not to strive for what works best.

Monarchy, the most undesirable form of governance on this planet that I could think of, is what heaven has. Yet it works best, because the very King who rules, does so with absolute wisdom, justice, and power. Furthermore, a King who is willing to stoop down and wash the feet of one of His lowliest and filthiest creatures.

Great post Gerry, always seems those that are the loudest about something, have no solutions for the so-called problem that they only see.

[JonathanPenner]

...always seems those that are the loudest about something, have no solutions for the so-called problem that they only see.

Not sure who you are pointing that statement at. I have listened to complainers. I have heard people gripe just to gripe. But I have also heard many God honoring, committed Seventh-day Adventists who love the church, and simply want to see it have an even greater transformational impact on communities across North America. I have engaged with them in discussion, as often surrounding solutions, as pointing out the problem.

The reality is that we cannot change what we aren't willing to acknowledge. I personally have invested 18 years of my life in not only identifying solutions, but putting them into practice and testing those that work and those that don't in the local church.

I have personally watched some of our church leaders (from local to Conf. Pres.) malign and sabotage those who would think to try new methods or ideas. At the same time I have also seen other church leaders lead with the heart of a servant leader, and inspire those who would think to try new and innovative things. Both exist among us, and I believe always will. However it takes far less energy to shut out innovation, than it does to create a climate where it can flourish.

Why would we ever be content to move into complacency and stop perusing better ways to accomplish the mission? In the corporate world this would be suicide. Is the Gospel of Christ of less importance than the work Apple does in creating a new iPad or iWorld? Often it feels like I live among a community of Christians who only talk about the "What", and rarely engage in the "Why".

The "what" is tangible and easy to talk about, while the "why" is at the heart of how we arrive at "what" we should be doing, or "how" we should be organized.

Simon Sinek does a great job of helping us understand the importance of the "why" question in this video clip. http://www.ted.com/talks/simon_sinek_how_great_leaders_inspire_action.html

A question I would ask is, do you believe that our church, the organized Seventh-day Adventist church (specifically in North America,) currently has one of the most effective organizational structures we could possibly have? In other words, we can do no better than we currently are in creating a structure that will serve to reach more people in North America for Christ, and grow them up to become strong healthy Kingdom building followers of Jesus?

[skyblue888]

Lecture on God's Organization (1901)

Part 1

Evening Lecture by A.T. Jones, 7 p.m., April 2, 1901.

This is the first speech Elder Jones gave at the 1901 General Conference and which was said to be "light for the people" on organization.

__________

The fourth chapter of Ephesians, beginning with the seventh verse: "Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."

The word was given to us to day that God calls for a reorganization of the General Conference, its work, and processes, that, consequently, must be our chief study. The General Conference is now formally, by representation, in session; but this representation that is here is not all the General Conference. We do not find all of the General Conference, till we have included every Seventh-day Adventist in the world. Consequently a reorganization of the General Conference calls for a reorganization of each individual Seventh-day Adventist throughout the world.

This is called for not only on the part, and in behalf, of the General Conference itself within itself, but it is called for by the interests of God in the earth. The world has reached that time in which a work is to be done by the Lord, which work He can not do unless each one of us shall be re-organized, renewed. Therefore I have begun with this verse, and we shall follow through a number of verses of this same chapter; for this is the story of reorganization.

All organization that is not of God is a mere makeshift for the time being. There is no true organization but that of God. And it is only life that is the source of organization. Organization is not the source of life. Organization does not give life. Life produces organization. Therefore, for God to have a reorganization of only the General Conference that is in session here, demands that God's life shall reach anew to us and in fuller measure than ever yet it has. And whomsoever it is that God shall reach by that life of His, that is reorganization; and whomsoever He shall reach by that life of His in greater measure, that is reorganization. Therefore I have read this verse for this is the beginning of life.

All true organization comes from God to men, by the grace of God, which is the gift of God Himself to men. So then "unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." Eph.4:7. Then, since the grace of God is the fountain of all good to men, and that grace is given unto every one of us according to the measure of Christ, there is the supply, there is the source, the fountain; an abundance of grace to accomplish that for which God called to-day. For what is the measure of the gift of Christ?--"In Him dwelleth all the fullness of God bodily." Col.2:9.

Unto every one of us is given grace according, then, to that measure of all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And He gave Himself--not loaned Himself, but gave, gave, in an eternal gift Himself--to us.

That is the measure of the gift of Christ. There is no limit to it. It is boundless as the fullness of God; and is given to every one of us--US! to you, to me. O, then when God opens (I will not say the fountain) the boundless sea of His grace to you and to me individually, and then says to us that God calls for a reorganization, what shall hinder? Is not the prospect bright enough for us to throw ourselves away upon His offer,--to plunge off into that boundless sea of His grace, which works only salvation to every one whom it reaches? (Titus 2:11)

O, you know it is written,--

"There is a wideness in God's mercy.

Like the wideness of the sea;

There is a kindness in His justice,

that is more than liberty."

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Lecture on God's Organization

1901 General Conference

A.T.Jones

Part 2

So much for the gift; so much for the inducement, the qualification, which he gives to every one of us to accomplish upon us, to accomplish in us, and to accomplish for us; and then, having accomplished upon us and in us and for us, to accomplish through us His wondrous purpose in this day, to glorify God upon the earth, and to finish the work which is given us to do. This having been presented in His word, now let us see what He proposes to do by that grace which He has given boundlessly to every one of us.

Let us read on: "Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore, He saith, when He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men... And He gave some, apostles; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers."

First of all, this grace is given "for the perfecting of the saints;" and all else for which this grace is given can never be accomplished, unless this first purpose for which it is given shall be accomplished, recognized, looked unto, and aimed at,--the perfection of the saints. For the next clause is, "for the work of the ministry;" and the next, "for the edifying (the building up) of the body of Christ."

But what can God do with a ministry that does not recognize the perfecting of the saints? What can God do in building up His church, when God's grace in the perfecting of the saints who compose the church, is not recognized?

So then He has laid the foundation rightly; He has put the first truth first, rightly. The perfecting of the saints, then, is the first work of the grace of God . And since He has given all the grace that He has, and has given all the fullness of God in the gift of His grace, all that God is, all His power, all His sanctifying holiness and Spirit,--all this is given, pledged, to him who receives the grace, that that grace shall accomplish God's purpose in bringing him unto perfection.

Then no one who has named Christ, no one who professes to have received the grace of God, is ever to be content for one moment with anything short of perfection as God sees it--as He has set it before our eyes in Jesus Christ.

And it is He who is to do it; not we to perfect ourselves, not we to do the work, but He who gave Himself that He might do it to me. Oh, there is the foundation of our confidence! there is the foundation of our trust fixed,--that it is He who is to accomplish it and then we know it shall be done.

Then for the work of the ministry. This boundless gift of the grace of God is for the work of the ministry. And so that is the second thing in the work of the grace of God--not second in importance, but second in fact; because without the perfecting work of the grace of God, what shall the ministry be worth?

The ministry of the Gospel is the highest calling, and to be a minister of the Gospel is to hold the highest position in the wide universe. That is the truth. I mean the highest calling among creatures, of course.

I say it again; the ministry of the Gospel is the highest calling; to be a minister of the Gospel is to occupy the highest position, and to hold the highest place, that there is to be held or occupied in the universe of God. And so, brethren, I would exhort every soul who has ever thought of the ministry, not to allow himself to entertain any thought of the ministry of the Gospel that is any lower than that which I have named. For anyone to allow himself to think of the ministry of the Gospel of Christ in any lower degree, in any possibly conceivable extent, is to miss the ministry of the Gospel. Any man who holds the ministry of the Gospel at any lower standard, in any degree, than that which I have named has missed the gospel ministry. He has not got it; he has not got it. IT.

Then may the Lord by His Spirit and by the abundance of His grace work upon our minds and our hearts, to broaden our comprehension and lift us to that height at which He Himself has placed the standard of the ministry of the Gospel of Christ.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Lecture on God's Organization (1901)

A.T. Jones

Part 3

First, the perfecting of the saints; then the work of the ministry; then the building up of the church. O, the church needs building up! That is why God calls for reorganization. Then let us recognize that He has set before us that true standard--nothing short of the perfecting and the perfection of the saints. Then the true height of the ministry of the Gospel, the ministry of Christ...

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things who is the Head, even Christ." Eph.4:14-15.

Now here is true reorganization, and there is no other. "Speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things who is the Head, even Christ, from whom the whole body fitly framed together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

There is reorganization, and there is no other; there is no other way. Any organization that does not come from Jesus Christ is no organization at all. Note that this organization--this reorganization comes from the HEAD. Organization does not come from the members; it comes from the Head.

Then do you not see that this is organization in the church of Christ? All organization must come from Christ Himself. He can do it; only He can.

Turn to Colossians, to the corresponding verse that I call your attention to in connection with this. "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."

It says, then, that this body is built from the Head; and that those who do not hold the Head are beguiled of their reward. O, yes, they humble themselves, and they work, and they pray, and all this thing; but what does it amount to? It is all simply works. And all this is because the Head is not recognized: "Not holding the Head." So then the body is organized from the Head. The life energy, flowing from the Head to all the members, each member actuated from the Head, each member guided by the will that resides in the Head. That is perfection of organization, and the human body is the same. This is the illustration. Here is the human body--many members, but it is all one body, each member of this body of ours which God has given us.

By the way let me pause upon that one thought.

In our bodies, which we have ever with us, and to which we were directed to-day,--why is it that in all this exhortation of the Spirit of prophecy to reorganization, health reform comes in every time? Why is it, as to-day it was clearly cited, "I am fearfully and wonderfully made"? --It is because in this organization in which we ourselves are, our bodies which God has made us, He has presented before us an everlasting illustration of the organization of the church. And it is exceeding carelessness, and from that, blindness, that cannot see the organization of the church, what it must be, when every day each one carries about with him, and is constantly using, this body, which is composed of many members.

Every one of these members is actuated by the head; and no two of them ever come into quarrel, ever have any difference of opinion, act in contrary ways. Or if they should by any means act in contrary ways, as the hands do to break a string, it is only apparently; they are actually pulling together.

You simply cannot have schism in the body which God has organized from the head. So then, since God calls for re-organization, let not a soul here be afraid that there is going to be confusion, or schism, or anything of the kind. There is no danger whatever except among those who hold not to the head.

Who is the church?--Those who look to the Head; those who seek the Head; those who are joined to the Head. 1 Cor.6:15,17.

Then there is no difference how many members there may be, though we are only one on one side of the earth, and another on the other side of the earth, we two members will move together, and act together, because the Head Christ Jesus, the Lord, is organizing both. His will actuates both. He is the One who is doing that in both." 1901 General Conference Bulletin, pp.41,42.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

I hope you will stay tune because the best is coming.

sky

[skyblue888]

Lecture on God's Organization (1901)

"Light For The People"

Part 4

Then this also must be considered: that position, place, never gives authority. Authority qualifies for the place. I will say it again: it must be a watchword for every one in this conference: Position never gives authority. Place, position, never bestows authority. No authority is derived from the place. But authority that a man already has from God, which God has put upon him, will qualify a man for the place to which God calls him; and if he has not that authority before he enters the place, he has not the authority when he is in the place. The view that place gives authority is precisely the principle of papal infallibility. The pope is not infallible before he is elected. Nobody claims that. He is only a cardinal before he is elected; but as soon as he is elected, then he is infallible; then he is inspired by the Holy Spirit because he holds his place. That is the papacy.

Christianity is that God clothes men with authority; and whether they have any place or position, or not, it is all right, they have authority, anyhow. Look at it: Jesus Christ was in this world, truly saying, "All power (and that is 'all authority' in the Revised Version) is given unto Me in Heaven and in earth;" and He had no place at all, not so much as to lay His head. He had no position at all. The Pharisees, the priests, the scribes, the lawyers, the hypocrites, had position; they had place; and they could lord it over Him, and set Him before them, and sit in judgment upon Him. Where was their authority?--They had none.

Jesus had the authority, and the people knew it, and the Pharisees who did not have it, grew so jealous of Him that they could not stand Him any longer. All the world has gone after Him, and so we must put Him out of the world to save our place. If we do not, we will lose our place.

The man who is connected with the Head, the man who serves God, the man who lives in Jesus Christ, can never lose his place; for his place is with Jesus Christ, under the wings of the Almighty, and he is safe. Where was Jesus' authority?--when He did not have any position or any place? How could He have authority? It was in the truth which He taught from God. All man's authority, all true and right authority in this world comes to him through the truth of God which he receives.

When we shall find a man in this world who has as much of the truth of God as Christ had in Him, we shall find a man who has all authority in heaven and earth, because he has all the truth in heaven and earth. The measure of the truth that a man has, only that measure of authority he has wherever he is. And if he is in the highest place of responsibility on this earth, if he has no truth, he has no authority. All the authority he can ever have in that place is the truth that is in Him, which is a part of him.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Lecture on God's Organization (1901)

"Light For The People"

A.T. Jones

Part 5

Therefore Jesus said, "The princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you."--

What do the princes of the world do?--They exercise authority.

Now God has never given to any man in His church authority to exercise authority. That is the difference between the princes of the world and the princes of God; for we are princes of God. The princes of the world exercise authority; the princes of God have authority, and it exercises itself. Then there is no dominion among the princes of God. There is no lordship, there is none of the kingly spirit which was described to us. No; there are no territorial boundaries among the princes of God,--that this is my conference. It is God's. So, the princes of this world exercise dominion, exercise authority. The princes of the world who have no real authority exercise authority. The princes of God have authority but exercise no authority. The princes of God have authority, and that is enough to suit them; and God takes care of the rest so that no one is greatest, but only one is Master, and all of us are brethren. So then, this is the course of organization.

So then, let us see that we be organized from the Head. Let us see that our authority shall come from God and that we never exercise authority. Yes speak with authority, because the authority is in the truth which we speak. Only there lies our authority.

IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU

There is no exercise of authority, there is no place for domination, among Christians; neither by Christians upon other Christians, nor by Christians upon people who are not Christians.

Note that it is "the princes of the Gentiles" that exercise dominion and authority over people; and it is "them"--the Gentiles--over whom this dominion and authority are exercised.

And even though dominion and authority be exercised by men in "the church," they are still "princes of the Gentiles" who do it. Christians do not do it, for, "It shall not be so among you."

And even though they be members of "the church," over and upon whom this dominion and authority are exercised, and who allow it to be exercised over and upon "them," they are Gentiles all the same. Christians do not allow it to be done: for, "It shall not be so among you."

It is none but princes of the Gentiles who do do it; it is none but Gentiles over and upon whom they do it; and it is none but Gentiles who allow it to be done over and upon them, in the Church.

It cannot be done over or upon Christians: they will not allow it: for these have the word of their "Leader and Commander," "It shall not be so among you."

No man can be loyal to Christ, nor true to His word, who allows any man in "the church" or in the field of religion and faith to exercise any dominion or authority over or upon him. For Christ has commanded, "It shall not be so among you."Whosoever among Christians exercises such dominion or authority puts himself in the place of Christ. And whosoever allows it to be done to him, allows man to be to him in the place of Christ.

"Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." 1 Cor.7:23.

Whenever such thing appears, he by whom it appears is a prince of the Gentiles; and a prince of the Gentiles in the place of Christ. Whoever submits to it is a Gentile, and submits to a prince of the Gentiles in the place of Christ.

That is the whole story of the papacy. And whenever that thing is manifest in any church, it is just so much of the papacy there.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Lecture on God's Organization (1901)

"Light For The People."

A.T. Jones

Part 6

Remember that we were called to-day to put away childish things, to be no more children,--that we be no more children, tossed to and fro, not knowing where we are, not knowing whether we are on solid ground. God wants us to build upon the foundation, the truth, which makes man free, and which we know is the truth. Then will not we fear though the earth be moved out of her place, and the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea. "No more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things which is the Head, even Christ; from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth."

What man, what set of men, can select a worker here and another there, and fitly join them together? And well it has been expressed that this work of conducting the cause of God is the most delicate in the universe, because it deals with minds. How can we fitly join together living souls in spirit, with the life of God? Only God can do that. Only Christ, the Head, can do that. He will use us in joining us together, knitting,--not weaving, but knitting--us together. You know in weaving the threads are held side by side, and across, that they shall hold; but in knitting it is only one thread. In and in, in and in, always each stitch holding to all the others. That is what God proposes to do with us. We are joined,--knitted--together, and compacted by that which every joint supplies, and so makes the increase of the body; into the building up of the body itself; out of itself to build up itself from the Head.

That is organization. That is reorganization. Come, brethren, let us be organized. Let us be reorganized.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

"What we need now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference, p.25.

"This meeting will determine the character of our work in the future. How important that every step is taken under the supervision of God. This work must be carried on in a very different manner to what it has been in the past years." Ibid,83.

Light on God's Organization

Second Lecture, April 4, 1901.

"Light For The People"

Part 7

THE PRINCIPLE OF SELF-GOVERNMENT.

"God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual...

But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...

Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...

I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.

to be continued

*In 1896 this Testimony had been sent: "The people to whom God has entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings." T.M.397.

[JonathanPenner]

Skyblue thank you for posting all the Jones material.

I would like to ask you three questions:

1. How many non-Christian friends are you currently building God honoring relationships with?

2. What ministry or ministry work have you been involved in that has lead people who are far from Christ, to become fully devoted followers of His?

3. Do you have children? If so, are they contagious followers of Jesus Christ?

[Gerr]

I have listened to complainers. I have heard people gripe just to gripe. But I have also heard many God honoring, committed Seventh-day Adventists who love the church, and simply want to see it have an even greater transformational impact on communities across North America. I have engaged with them in discussion, as often surrounding solutions, as pointing out the problem.

Do we need to tamper with the whole structure in order to have a greater transformational impact around each church? If so, what? There is nothing that holds me back from doing some kind of personal ministry in my local church, and we are all under the same umbrella. IMHO, we are pointing the finger in the wrong direction to blame for the poor progress we are making in the proclamation of the gospel. I believe the counsel we were given was on target when she said:

A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should be our first work.--Review and Herald, March 22, 1887. {ChS 41.4}

The time has come for a thorough reformation to take place. When this reformation begins, the spirit of prayer will actuate every believer, and will banish from the church the spirit of discord and strife.--Testimonies, vol. 8, p. 251. {ChS 42.1}

A revival and a reformation must take place under the ministration of the Holy Spirit. Revival and reformation are two different things. Revival signifies a renewal of spiritual life, a quickening of the powers of mind and heart, a resurrection from the spiritual death. Reformation signifies a reorganization, a change in ideas and theories, habits and practices. Reformation will not bring forth the good fruit of righteousness unless it is connected with the revival of the Spirit. Revival and reformation are to do their appointed work, and in doing this work they must blend.-- Review and Herald, Feb. 25, 1902. {ChS 42.2}

When this takes place, the rest will take care of itself. It was not some church structure that set the apostolic church on fire; it was doing the above which was then followed by the outpouring of the holy Spirit.

[JonathanPenner]

Do we need to tamper with the whole structure in order to have a greater transformational impact around each church?...

A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs....When this takes place, the rest will take care of itself. It was not some church structure that set the apostolic church on fire; it was doing the above which was then followed by the outpouring of the holy Spirit.

Have companies like General Electric (est. 1892), Town & Country Magazine (est. 1846), or American Express (est. 1850) ever felt the "need to tamper with the whole structure in order to have a greater" marketplace impact? These are all century old companies. In 2011, are they still using the same financial systems, marketing systems, staff structures etc. that were in place over a hundred years ago?

Obviously the answer is no. So why did they tamper with their structures and systems? A simple answer is that the product or service they provide is considered important enough that they are willing to continually examine their systems to make sure they are truly the best vehicle to deliver, supply and support their product/service.

A denominational culture where we always held the system/structure to be subservient to the mission and message, would never consider the question "why would we tamper with the system" but would instead ask "is our system and structure most effective in helping us accomplish the mission God called us to?" Our decisions would not revolve around preserving job security or an attitude of "we've always done it that way."

Instead we would be driven to our knees, seeking God's wisdom to know how we could continually improved the stewardship and deployment of all the resources God has given us.

A revival of true Godliness, is needed. I wholeheartedly agree. But nowhere do I ever read that God would have us throw our minds into neutral when it comes to strategic organizational leadership.

Devoid of true Godliness, all the strategy in the world is of no value. But within the context of God honoring, Holy Spirit empowered, leadership. We should employ even greater thinking and strategic planning in God's work, than is done in a company selling electronic do-dads.

[Gerr]

So what changes would you make now that could/would make the current leaders foster a climate of making the church have a greater impact in the world?

Look at Stan. Did Stan need organizational structural change to start this forum? An organizational structural change to get gospel-proclaiming radio stations started in BC? Did the 3ABN founder?

[skyblue888]

In 1901 the burden for reorganization on right principles was recognized; and, for the most part, action was taken by the general session that constitutionally started things in the right direction. The whole thrust of the Conference was to break the power of those who envisioned themselves as imbued with divine authority to rule their brethren. Much could probably be said concerning the changes that were made, changes that, had they been put into practice, could have led to still further changes that would have simplified the work even more, eventually bringing the work under the direct control of the Holy Spirit as in the days of the Apostles.

The Spirit of the Lord was at that Conference, and the things which He initiated there prompted these statements from Mrs. White:

"We have been trying to organize the work on right lines. The Lord sent His angels to minister unto us who are heirs of salvation, telling us how to carry the work forward. This is not our work. God has brought it about...

"I was never more astonished in my life than at the turn things have taken at this meeting. This is not our work; God has brought it about. Instruction regarding this was presented to me; but until the sum was worked out at this meeting, I could not comprehend this instruction. God's angels have been walking up and down in this congregation. I want everyone of you to remember this, and I want you to remember also that God has said that He will heal the wounds of His people...

"Who do you suppose has been among us since this Conference began? Who has kept away the objectionable features that generally appear in such a meeting? Who has walked up and down the aisles of the Tabernacle? The God of Heaven and His angels. And they did not come here to tear you to pieces, but to give you right and peaceable minds. They have been among us to work the works of God, to keep back the powers of darkness, that the work God designed should be done should not be hindered. The angels of God have been working among us." 1901 General Conference Bulletin, pp.463,464.

Despite this, the Conference was, as Mrs. White said in another place, the greatest disappointment in her life!

[skyblue888]

The 1903 General Conference:

A Reversal!

During the period of reorganization, Jones, especially, saw a glimmer of the end to which God was seeking to direct the church. If the hand of the Lord can be seen in the work of the 1901 conference, then the New Constitution, which was the outworking of that Conference, must reveal in part the thing the Lord wanted done.

During the 1903 General Conference, the underworking of these ideas resulted in the opposition of the minority of the Committee on Plans and Constitution to the reversal of the 1901 Constitution as proposed by the majority of the Committee on Plans and Constitution in their report on the Constitution.

A protest was lodged by the minority of the committee regarding the proposed revision of the Constitution:

"The minority of your Committee on Plans and Constitution beg leave to submit that the Constitution proposed by the majority of the Committee appears to us to be so subversive to the principles of organization given to us at the General Conference of 1901 that we cannot possibly subscribe to it...

"The proposed new Constitution reverses the reformatory steps that were taken, and the principles which were given and adopted as the principles of reorganization, in the General Conference of 1901, and embodied in the present Constitution; and this, before that Constitution or the organization according to it, has ever had adequate trial. We therefore recommend that the Constitution of 1901 be given a fair trial before it be annihilated." General Conference, 1903, pp.146,147.

Those who supported the minority position were striving to retain at least two important principles that were included in the 1901 Constitution:

First, they felt that the shorter the constitution, the less regulation was possible, better and more efficient organization would result. As it was stated in the Minority Report, the proposed "new" Constitution was a reversal of that.

Second, the principle of "self-government" covered in depth by A.T. Jones, was the primary factor if the 1901 Constitution was to operate effectively.

sky

[skyblue888]

When all was said and done, the amended constitution was voted and adopted, thereby reversing the work of reform initiated by the Spirit of God as seen in 1901. If the will of God for His people, and His work on this earth done by them is expressed as the voice of the General Conference in session, which voice was correct? The voice of 1901 or the voice of 1903? Under this premise both claim to be right, and yet they are opposites. The reforms of 1901 are testified to by Mrs. White as being Heaven-inspired. Can such a thing be said about the steps taken in 1903?

In Volume 8 of the Testimonies, p.250, Mrs. White wrote, in the chapter, "Shall We Be Found Wanting," of the condition in 1903. The statement is dated April 21, 1903, which places it shortly after the Conference session: "Our position in the world is not what it should be... 'How is the faithful city become an harlot!?' My Father's house is made a house of merchandise, a place whence the divine presence and glory have departed! For this cause there is weakness, and strength is lacking." Ibid, pp.247,250.

What happened at the 1903 General Conference that made the church, the "faithful city" "become an harlot?" What made God's house a "house of merchandise" and "a place whence the divine presence and glory have departed?"

The answer lies in turning away from the reformatory steps taken in 1901 and embodied in the Constitition of that year. As in 1888, and the ensuing years thereafter, the principles of religious liberty that were woven into the work were once again rejected. It, again, involved the matter of control.

"One object of the organization under the Constitution (1901) that we had was that the work should be unified, and that the Conference Committee should be the unifying agency instead of the controlling agency; it would be an advisory agency and unifying agency of the different departments of the work of the cause." A.T. Jones, 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.165.

"Now it seems to me the thing we are to fear more than anything else is the danger of centralization and consolidating. It is a fact that during the last two years, in spite of everything, there has been a tendency to centralize and we know that the work has been retarded because of that spirit." E.A. Sutherland, Ibid, pp.167,168.

"God's hands must hold every worker, and must guide and control every worker. Men are not to make rules and regulations for their fellowmen. The Bible has given the rules and regulations that we are to follow. We are to follow the Bible and learn from it the duty of man to his fellowmen. 'The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.'" E.G. White, Ibid, p.87.

sky

[JonathanPenner]

So what changes would you make now that could/would make the current leaders foster a climate of making the church have a greater impact in the world?

Look at Stan. Did Stan need organizational structural change to start this forum? An organizational structural change to get gospel-proclaiming radio stations started in BC? Did the 3ABN founder?

If proclaiming the gospel is what we are all about. Than you are right in saying that nothing holds anyone back from starting a new proclamation vehicle.

However, the friends I rub shoulders with. The people I live among here in the Greater Vancouver region, are not going to tune into any kind of Christian radio. There is a less than 0.0001% chance of them tuning into 3ABN. Simply put, proclaiming the gospel may leave us feeling like we've done our job, but according to Jesus parable of the talents, fruitfulness was as important as faithfulness.

When the local church is designed and structured to strategically support the personal evangelistic efforts of every member in ways that are culturally relevant while remaining doctrinally pure, more than just proclamation can take place.

In terms of what changes could/would make the current leaders foster a climate of making the church have a greater impact in the world?

Just a start would be many of the thoughts in this link from Ron Gladden.

http://www.missioncatalyst.org/site/1/docs/Paper_full.pdf

[skyblue888]

John, how much time have you spent studying what happened at the General Conferences of 1901 and 1903?