End of the World

[Dr. Rich]

Great post Scion! Matthew 24:45 makes it clear that the real truth will be given to the 'rest' of the servants, but only at the proper time. Dan. 12:10 makes it clear that none of the wicked will know or understand when or how the end will take place.

[BobRyan]

That's right Bob.

Yes indeed Richard.

And the interesting thing is that nobody will get through that close of probation window that does not have the seal of God and has not received the Latter Rain.

And nobody will get the Latter Rain that has not been engaged in cooperation with the Holy Spirit in the work of separating sin from ourselves and so gaining victory over sin.

To think that at the close of probation you will suddenly be getting non-stop victory over sin - yet choose now to live in compromise day after day - is to place hope on something other than the truth of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Of course, to believe that it is even possible for a human being to stand before a holy God without a mediator is also to place hope on something other than the truth of scripture. That doctrine is not Christian or biblical.

[LifeHiscost]

Woody, you have done well. With all our doing, the Word at the end is still valid until Jesus performs His last act upon the repentant sinners heart at the beginning of the millenium.

"

"The message from God to me for you is "Him that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37). If you have nothing else to plead before God but this one promise from your Lord and Saviour, you have the assurance that you will never, never be turned away. It may seem to you that you are hanging upon a single promise, but appropriate that one promise, and it will open to you the whole treasure house of the riches of the grace of Christ. Cling to that promise and you are safe. "Him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out." Present this assurance to Jesus, and you are as safe as though inside the city of God. {10MR 175.1}

You are not to examine your feelings and put any dependence upon your emotions, for they may be as varied as the wind, but take to your heart this one promise and you will find it a passport to all the rich treasures of heaven. You are precious to the heart of Christ and He speaks, saying unto you, "Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). There is no perhaps or maybe about this promise. The "I will" of Christ is an assurance that cannot be made any stronger. He speaks further, saying, "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly of heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:29, 30)." 10MR 175

1 John 2:25 "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, eternal life."

"The hope of eternal life is not to be taken up upon slight grounds. It is a subject to be settled between God and your own soul; settled for eternity. A supposed hope, and nothing more, will prove your ruin. Since you are to stand or fall by the word of God, it is to that word you must look for testimony in your case. There you can see what is required of you to become a Christian. Do not lay off your armor, nor leave the battle field until you have obtained the victory, and triumph in your Redeemer." {2SG 264.4}

"Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."Acts 5:31 NKJV

"“When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin), and You become angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, and they take them captive to the land of the enemy, far or near; yet when they come to themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of those who took them captive, saying, ‘We have sinned and done wrong, we have committed wickedness’; and when they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land which You gave to their fathers, the city which You have chosen and the temple which I have built for Your name: then hear in heaven Your dwelling place their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause..."

1 Kings 8:46-49 NKJV parenthesis theirs Bold mine LHC

God blesses!

[addvantage]

Of course, to believe that it is even possible for a human being to stand before a holy God without a mediator is also to place hope on something other than the truth of scripture. That doctrine is not Christian or biblical.

3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. {GC 425.1}

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. {GC 425.2}

Is this quote in error? I think not.

[addvantage]

Camping's calculations are extremely flawed. He places the flood in the time of Noah as being about 4,500 B.C. and this predates the day of Adam by hundreds of years.

Is there any more doubt about the accuracy of his predictions?

[Igakusei]

Camping's calculations are extremely flawed. He places the flood in the time of Noah as being about 4,500 B.C. and this predates the day of Adam by hundreds of years.

Is there any more doubt about the accuracy of his predictions?

He's even more wrong than you think. He thinks the Earth is 13,024 years old.

That's an error on par with thinking the distance from New York to LA is about 35 feet.

[(13024 years)*(2300 miles)*(5280 feet/mile)]/(4,500,000,000 years) = 35 feet

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Of course, to believe that it is even possible for a human being to stand before a holy God without a mediator is also to place hope on something other than the truth of scripture. That doctrine is not Christian or biblical.

{long EGW quot snipped for brevity - read above}

Is this quote in error? I think not.

If by 'is this quote in error?' you mean 'is this an accurate transcription (or copy-and-paste) of the words from the Great Controversy?' that I was alluding to, then no.

If you mean 'is this what Ellen White taught?' - again, no, the quote is not in error.

If you mean 'does this quote contain terrible, heretical error in Christian theology?', then I'm afraid the answer is yes.

Show it to me from the Bible, if you can. The notion that we can survive without Christ's intercession and substitution is simply not Christian.

[Woody]

Of course, to believe that it is even possible for a human being to stand before a holy God without a mediator is also to place hope on something other than the truth of scripture. That doctrine is not Christian or biblical.

Very True.

To believe that we can somehow answer the curse of the law is Un-Christian. It is cultish. There is no way I can stand before God and live. I must have the Robe of Christ. Even though I am In Christ ... I continue to sin. If I could stop sinning ... I wouldn't need the sacrifice of Jesus. And those who do not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus - are not Christian.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

To believe that we can somehow answer the curse of the law is Un-Christian. It is cultish. There is no way I can stand before God and live. I must have the Robe of Christ. Even though I am In Christ ... I continue to sin. If I could stop sinning ... I wouldn't need the sacrifice of Jesus. And those who do not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus - are not Christian.

Woody,

My personal question to you is, "Would you like to stop sinning?"

My understanding of Christianity is that "the gospel of Christ... is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." The "good news" of "the gospel of Christ" is that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

FREE from sin and sinning! Hallelu-YAH!

[Woody]

My time of not sinning will come when I get to heaven. Not before. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... HE will change me and THEN I will no longer be corrupt.

And yes - I long for that day.

[CoAspen]

[ClubV12]

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." {GC 425.1}

Just because I don't understand fully the above, doesn't mean I reject it. It is written, by the Lord's messenger, not as an "opinion" or "special counsel" to some brother or sister. It is written not only for the church, but for the world. As GC was meant for the world, not just for the church.

I see in it a wonderful promise that it IS possible for our lives to be "perfect" by the purified sprinkling of the blood of Jesus AND our "own diligent effort"!!

As long as one believes it is impossible to overcome because Jesus has not given you the power to do so, you won't overcome. I would submit that this concept of total reliance on Him and Him alone weakens and imperils the other side of the coin. Your own diligent effort. Jesus could work a miracle in your life to help you overcome whatever it might be, but make no mistake, that "miracle" will require a supreme effort on your part as well.

No, when the smoke clears, you are still unworthy, all your good works and supreme effort are worthless. ONLY by His grace, in the end, will you be found worthy. But I will not be presumptous that is going to happen without some serious "work" on my part!

[Woody]

We are spotless and don't need a mediator because the decision of being saved or lost has already been done. Whether we sin or not ... really doesn't matter. The decision has been made.

God judges our hearts not our actions. All obedience comes from the heart. We are even judged by what we might have done if given the opportunity. So again ... it's the heart that is judged.

[Tom Wetmore]

If by 'is this quote in error?' you mean 'is this an accurate transcription (or copy-and-paste) of the words from the Great Controversy?' that I was alluding to, then no.

If you mean 'is this what Ellen White taught?' - again, no, the quote is not in error.

If you mean 'does this quote contain terrible, heretical error in Christian theology?', then I'm afraid the answer is yes.

Show it to me from the Bible, if you can. The notion that we can survive without Christ's intercession and substitution is simply not Christian.

Nor Biblical... It seems to directly contradict two key texts. Jesus said just before he departed for the heavenly realm, "And lo I am with you to the very end of the world." (I don't see any gap time in which he stops being there for us.) And in Hebrews 7:25 it say, "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." The operative Greek word there means "evermore" "always" "never ending".

[ClubV12]

Tom I think there is a subtle difference between Christs official mediation and His being with us at the same time.

THIS much I know, as written in the GC, by Ellen White, I accept it as entirely biblical. That doesn't mean I fully understand it and it could be debated as to the points she raises.

I accept it fully because it does not appear to be an "opinion" and because I have seen no later correction or enlightening understanding of the statement from her works. To me, it seems to be in perfect harmony.

[Tom Wetmore]

This passage from GC also seems out of harmony with what she say elsewhere that Jesus will continue his mediation on our behalf throughout the ages and that He intercedes on behalf of the unfallen worlds.

I suspect that the problem is that this EGW quote is misunderstood, misapplied and overemphasized by a certain "last generation" segment of Adventists.

I believe that there is a complete misapprehension by many well intentioned Adventists of the final sequence of events, the real timeline of those final events, including a close of probation (whatever that means) and when Jesus will appear in the clouds.

I believe that earth's history will end suddenly and abruptly. Isn't that what Jesus said? And I don't think Jesus will dilly-dally around and delay for any time whatsoever when He is done doing whatever it is He is doing now. He did say, "I will return. And I will be quick about it." How quickly can God move?

There will simply be no gap in time where the intercessory power is turned off so we will have to go it alone on our own righteous battery power.

I don't think Jesus was being coy or subtle about this topic or that He wants us to worry about our salvation. We are the ones that make up these subtle hair-splitting distinctions. He was trying to reassure his followers. He had already said concerning why he had to go away, "Don't let your hearts be troubled."

[Woody]

Tom I think there is a subtle difference between Christs official mediation and His being with us at the same time.

THIS much I know, as written in the GC, by Ellen White, I accept it as entirely biblical. That doesn't mean I fully understand it and it could be debated as to the points she raises.

I accept it fully because it does not appear to be an "opinion" and because I have seen no later correction or enlightening understanding of the statement from her works. To me, it seems to be in perfect harmony.

Looks from this vantage point that you have been blinded by your maxim that ALL that EGW says must be truth. That is simply a lie. Don't hold onto it. She says to compare her opinions to scipture and if they are wrong to TOSS them into the depths of the sea. Do you believe her when she says that? Or is she wrong?

[ClubV12]

It's not blind Woody, it's just understanding how prophets work, grow, change, offer advice. This particular passage doesn't leave much room for any other consideration. What she said here is either inspired, or not, one must make a call on that. I choose to go with this passage as being inspired until further evidence reveals some different understanding. I readily acknowledge I don't fully understand it. But I'm not reading into it anything more than it says. I'm not reading with any preconceived ideas or some ax to grind or position to support. I'm just reading it, it says what it says. If A.T. Jones or Uriah Smith had said it, I would question it substantillay more than if Ellen White said it. Is that prejudice? I don't think so, I think it's just logic based on the history of the individuals.

Whaddya make of it Woody? Totally NOT inspired? Just a thought on Ellen Whites part that should be ignored? An ill informed opinion of hers that she later changed? Counsel to a brethren? Perhaps she didn't say it all and it was added by some editor and applied to her as if she said it?

[ClubV12]

"She says to compare her opinions to scipture and if they are wrong to TOSS them into the depths of the sea."

I've never seen or heard about a quote like that.

[Woody]

"She says to compare her opinions to scipture and if they are wrong to TOSS them into the depths of the sea."

I've never seen or heard about a quote like that.

That's the Woody's paraphrase. But she still makes the same point.

[Woody]

"Take no man's explanation of Scripture, whatever his position, but go to the Bible and search for the truth yourselves." TM 152

“the testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God’s Word is the unerring standard . . . Let all prove their positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim as truth from the revealed Word of God” (Ev 256).

At a meeting held in the Battle Creek College library on the eve of the General Conference of 1901 she told the leaders, “Lay Sister White right to one side. Don’t . . . ever quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible” (SpM 167).

No man can improve the Bible by suggesting what the Lord meant to say or ought to have said. . . . {FLB 13.4}

The Bible must be our standard for every doctrine and practice. We must study it reverentially. We are to receive no one's opinion without comparing it with the Scriptures. Here is divine authority which is supreme in matters of faith. It is the Word of the living God that is to decide all controversies" (The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, pp. 44, 45; cf.

The Great Controversy, p. 595).

"Do not carry your creed to the Bible, and read the Scriptures in the light of that creed. If you find that your opinions are opposed to a plain "Thus saith the Lord," or to any command or prohibition He has given, give heed to the Word of God rather than to the sayings of men. Let every controversy or dispute be settled by "It is written." ... " OHC 207.

[ClubV12]

All good and valid points Woody. We are to search the bible for ourselves (ourselves meaning us, church theologians, learned scholars, folks in the pews) to arrive at sound doctrinal points. She often did not do this kind of work for the church, but only pointed us in certain directions, leaving the particulars and details primarily to the "church" to resolve.

Now in this GC quote she takes a different track. What she is stating is not "doctrinal", not a test of faith and it cannot be proved from the bible. Here, her statement is that of a "prophet", pure and simple. The only way she could have come to this conclusion is through opinion or inspiration.

So, I wonder, which is it? Based on the body of her other work and her calling my FIRST inclination is "inspired". Not from blindly following, but from reasoned logic on the author.

Once again, the statement in question:

"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil." {GC 425.1}

[Bravus]

If it is possible through sanctification to entirely cease sinning and merit salvation through our own works, we don't need a sacrificial Saviour at all, only a prompting Spirit and our own 'diligent efforts'. That's the harm of this doctrine: it makes the claim that a Saviour is not necessary.

[Woody]

If it is possible through sanctification to entirely cease sinning and merit salvation through our own works, we don't need a sacrificial Saviour at all, only a prompting Spirit and our own 'diligent efforts'. That's the harm of this doctrine: it makes the claim that a Saviour is not necessary.

SPOT ON - Bingo - Amen and anything else that might apply. Great job Bravus.