End of the World

[ClubV12]

I must have missed that part where someone even HINTED at the possibility of achieving perfection WITHOUT Christ.

That is foregone conclusion. So, you counting on Him, Him alone, through a miracle direct to you, while you sit on the couch and wait for it to happen? Don't hold your breath... :)

[Bravus]

I think I said 'sanctification', the Holy Spirit and 'diligent efforts'. No couch involved!

[Bravus]

...and the miraculous transformation Woody was talking about was the 'in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye we shall all be changed' at the Second Coming, not something here and now.

The point is, even if we cease actively sinning we commit dozens of sins of omission every day. And even without that (in Christian theology) we are in a fallen state and in need of redemption.

All of that means that the notion that without Christ we can stand before God, proud of our own sinlessness (even if it is his power that has wrought it in us) is simply not Biblical.

Neither is the notion of Christ withdrawing himself, as Tom has illustrated.

I have no problem with Ellen White, but when it's necessary to contradict the Bible to keep her words, it's time for some hard questions.

[Woody]

Quote:

I have no problem with Ellen White, but when it's necessary to contradict the Bible to keep her words, it's time for some hard questions.

Nail has been applied to head.

Exactly

This is the single thing I have against cons. They have to compromise the Truth of scripture to support the infallibility theory. Their entire support is all about infallibility so as not to diminsh the words of this human.

Hey - she was a prophet. But she was not infallible.

Some from what I hear are sitting on the couch waiting for the perfection that EGW promised. Not goinna happen.

[phkrause]

This passage from GC also seems out of harmony with what she say elsewhere that Jesus will continue his mediation on our behalf throughout the ages and that He intercedes on behalf of the unfallen worlds.

I suspect that the problem is that this EGW quote is misunderstood, misapplied and overemphasized by a certain "last generation" segment of Adventists.

I believe that there is a complete misapprehension by many well intentioned Adventists of the final sequence of events, the real timeline of those final events, including a close of probation (whatever that means) and when Jesus will appear in the clouds.

I believe that earth's history will end suddenly and abruptly. Isn't that what Jesus said? And I don't think Jesus will dilly-dally around and delay for any time whatsoever when He is done doing whatever it is He is doing now. He did say, "I will return. And I will be quick about it." How quickly can God move?

There will simply be no gap in time where the intercessory power is turned off so we will have to go it alone on our own righteous battery power.

I don't think Jesus was being coy or subtle about this topic or that He wants us to worry about our salvation. We are the ones that make up these subtle hair-splitting distinctions. He was trying to reassure his followers. He had already said concerning why he had to go away, "Don't let your hearts be troubled."

ClubV, I am in agreement with Tom on this about the passage you are quoting from the GC. I believe what your seeing here is, after Jesus is done with his job in the MHP, and just before his coming, there is a time period that there will not be an intermediator. This is mentioned in Revelation, if I recall correctly. I will try and find it and than post it. And yes there is nothing that EW writes in the GC that is not true, we just need to read it very carefully. There are no opinions in this book, its just us not putting it in context.

[ClubV12]

Well thats a good point PK. I believe, correctly understood, the passage in GC is in harmony with the bible.

Like I said, I DON'T fully understand it. Nor, due to it's nature, accept it as her personal opinion. That only leaves a few options.

1. It is her personal opinion (highly doubtful)!

2. It is an inspired prophetic statement (most likely).

3. Somebody else slipped it into the book when she wasn't looking (improbable).

I'll take #2, based on the available evidence.

You know,,, this timeline, as Tom mentions, and this quote, play well with her "special resurrection" and the 7th plague timeline as well. I think there is a significant connection here.

...while I think the special resurrection she lays out in the Great Controversy is fascinating, I've learned to be quiet about that subject. It's NOT a point of salvation. But, it's an interesting subject, you know, when talking among friends, like here. :)

[phkrause]

Well thats a good point PK. I believe, correctly understood, the passage in GC is in harmony with the bible.

Like I said, I DON'T fully understand it. Nor, due to it's nature, accept it as her personal opinion. That only leaves a few options.

1. It is her personal opinion (highly doubtful)!

2. It is an inspired prophetic statement (most likely).

3. Somebody else slipped it into the book when she wasn't looking (improbable).

I'll take #2, based on the available evidence.

You know,,, this timeline, as Tom mentions, and this quote, play well with her "special resurrection" and the 7th plague timeline as well. I think there is a significant connection here.

It is most definitely in harmony with the Bible. We just need to but what she writes in its proper context. Or as I've stated on a few occasions, she fills in places that there maybe are some that don't really understand what the Bible is saying. But than sometimes its also hard to understand her writings.

[addvantage]

My time of not sinning will come when I get to heaven. Not before. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... HE will change me and THEN I will no longer be corrupt.

And yes - I long for that day.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and

keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

After Christ leaves the most holy place, He does not IMMEDIATELY appear on this earth at His second coming.

There will be a space of time WHEN THERE WILL BE NO MEDIATOR IN HEAVEN. If you sin after Christ leaves the most holy place, you will not be saved.

[BobRyan]

In Rev 15:8 we see the heavenly sanctuary shut down.

So no more 1John 2:1 mediation by our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary after the Rev 15:8 point.

And as we see in Rev 15 -- this is done so that you can have the Rev 16 seven last plagues.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

I do believe that is fundamentally correct addvantage, with the exception of the "possibility of sin" during this part of the time frame.

My take on it is:

This time frame would be between the time when He leaves the MHP and when He is first spotted in the heavens. As a small dark cloud, about the size of a fist. During THIS time frame the Saints have already been sealed, though they may not be aware of it. The plagues will be falling, or about to fall, and they will be in hiding and facing a death decree. The situation will be so desperate their only thoughts will be centered on Him, continually, as all earthly support in every way imaginable has been removed. Desperate, in great physical discomfort, hungry, cold, hunted. The perfect environment to totally place your only hope in God.

Also the perfect environment for those to curse God for their troubles. But those "cursing God" will be to busy hunting for the Saints who brought all this trouble on them. It will have been "done" when He steps out of the MHP. The fate of all, will have been decided, though not all or anyone, is completely aware of that fact.

[BobRyan]

Jesus will continue his mediation on our behalf throughout the ages and that He intercedes on behalf of the unfallen worlds.

[BobRyan]

I do believe that is fundamentally correct addvantage, with the exception of the "possibility of sin" during this part of the time frame.

My take on it is:

This time frame would be between the time when He leaves the MHP and when He is first spotted in the heavens. As a small dark cloud, about the size of a fist. During THIS time frame the Saints have already been sealed, though they may not be aware of it. The plagues will be falling, or about to fall, and they will be in hiding and facing a death decree. The situation will be so desperate their only thoughts will be centered on Him, continually, as all earthly support in every way imaginable has been removed. Desperate, in great physical discomfort, hungry, cold, hunted. The perfect environment to totally place your only hope in God.

[ClubV12]

"We do not know how long the 7 last plagues will last."

I've given some thought to it and simply have not been able to come up with anything!

I think they will be pretty short in duration though. We do have some possible clue's as to how long it would take for Jesus to get here once He left the MHP.

Something about the angel traveling from heaven to get to Daniel to reveal more about the visison(s) might hint at a time frame. Another hint is something about seven days it takes to travel from earth to heaven when we acsend with Jesus.

So, at the very least, I'm thinking a "few days". I feel bad even speculating on this "time frame" subject because it's not relevant to anything really. The sequence of events can be fairly well plotted out though, which I'm sure come one right after the other in rapid succession.

[Tom Wetmore]

After Christ leaves the most holy place, He does not IMMEDIATELY appear on this earth at His second coming.

There will be a space of time WHEN THERE WILL BE NO MEDIATOR IN HEAVEN. If you sin after Christ leaves the most holy place, you will not be saved.

Just a logistics question. If the work of judgment is completed, the books closed and everyone's fate is sealed with Christ leaving the most holy place, how is any sin after that judged so that sinner be would be lost?

[addvantage]

What happens to the man found at the wedding without a garment?

[ClubV12]

Tom I did address that question in my post just above yours. Sin is no longer a possibility as the Judgement is over and the Saints sealed. However, I'm not sure the Saints will actually realize they are sealed and saved at that time.

[Tom Wetmore]

You are mixing metaphors at the very least.

Where do the events illustrated by that parable fit into the sequence of events in Revelation? When is the wedding feast? In particular, before or after the judgement? Would the act of disqualifying someone for not accepting Christ's robe of righteousness happen before or after the close of probation? Will Jesus be throwing people out of wedding feast portrayed in Revelation? Do you think maybe Jesus was making a different point than about timing of judgment and close of probation in that parable?

[Tom Wetmore]

Tom I did address that question in my post just above yours. Sin is no longer a possibility as the Judgement is over and the Saints sealed. However, I'm not sure the Saints will actually realize they are sealed and saved at that time.

I would invite you to read carefully the sequence of events described in Revelation 14-16. Notice where judgment is announced and pronounced and executed. At what point does it describe the harvest or separating and gathering up of the righteous from the unrighteous? Where in the sequence is the temple filled with smoke so that none can enter? Where are the redeemed singing the song of Moses? Is it before or after that? What does that tell about what they know as the smoke fills the temple?

[Bravus]

Interesting that the man at the feast has come up. His *exact* problem was that he thought his own robe (righteousness) was sufficient and rejected that offered by the Host. Surely that applies exactly to those who think they will attain sufficient righteousness to stand before God without the covering of Jesus' spotless garment?

[Dr. Rich]

Bravus, Jesus does Not place His robe on anyone. You MUST overcome sin on your own. Have not your ever read Rev. 19:7-9? The robe of righteousness is made from the righteous acts of the 144k and the 5 wise virgins (saints who are sealed prior to the start of the time of trouble). It does NOT say that Jesus gives His robe to anyone. Each person is responsible for their own robe of righteousness. Jesus does NOT want robo saints, He wants each to make the choice on their own to obey the ten commandments and hold to the words of Jesus (rev. 12:17) or not.

[Bravus]

So what *is* that parable about?

[Dr. Rich]

Bob Ryan wrote: "We do not know how long the 7 last plagues will last."

Well Bob, did you have a mouse in your pocket when you wrote that? Who is the 'we' that you are talking about? You can't include me in that because the time for the 7 last plagues can't be longer than 5 months. But then only the wise will understand Revelation so I don't suppose many will know about this.

Oh, a clue is that Satan and his demons are let out of the abbyss to torment the world the last five months. The plagues do not hurt those who have become righteous by the righteous ACTS (works) of the 144k and 5 wise virgins who are sealed by Jesus prior to the time of trouble.

[Dr. Rich]

Bravus, what 'parable' are you talking about? Matt. 22 is a continuation of what Jesus said in Matt. 21. The invitation was to everyone, both good and bad. But the man who showed up without a wedding garment was cast out. Jesus was not the one handing out the wedding garments. Not only does this prophecy show that one's own understanding of truth will not keep you in the Kingdom of Heaven, but also that there is NO SUCH THING as being saved by grace or righteousness by faith.

[Bravus]

I guess I get to be the orthodox one on this: righteousness by faith IS the gospel.

[Bravus]

Bravus, what 'parable' are you talking about? Matt. 22 is a continuation of what Jesus said in Matt. 21. The invitation was to everyone, both good and bad. But the man who showed up without a wedding garment was cast out. Jesus was not the one handing out the wedding garments. Not only does this prophecy show that one's own understanding of truth will not keep you in the Kingdom of Heaven, but also that there is NO SUCH THING as being saved by grace or righteousness by faith.

You're correct on the details of the parable (first verse of Matthew 22 makes it clear He was talking in parables) - I'd misremembered the details of where the robes came from. I maintain that the whole rest of Scripture teaches that it is Christ's righteousness credited to us that saves us, not our own righteousness and certainly not (as you seem to be suggesting) the righteousness of other human beings.