End of the World

[Flyboy]

When I first posted on this thread, as to the fate of those who are part of the Camping Movement, I was curious as to the feeling among fellow SDA. Now I'm a bit concerned. We should not be, and I don't think most are, so arrogant as to think that we have a monopoly on the truth or that we have everything just right.

It is easy to be arrogant when one believes he has the truth, but pride goes before the fall.

For sure, I will keep this group in my prayers. I feel deeply for them, the mocking they will receive when they get to work on Monday. The embarrassment.

[fccool]

fccool, there is only ONE single truth. All else are lies/sin. That ONE single truth will be given to the "rest of the servants at the proper time" (Matt. 24:45) and that time has not yet come. As it is right now, I cannot endure evil men (Rev. 2:2) and all lies are evil. God does NOT have any compassion for anyone who refuses to stop practicing lies, repents and seeks the real truth. You will NEVER find anywhere that Jesus said anything about someone being saved by grace!

Does anyone really want to know the truth? If so, then start practing the truth by seeking the truth. Only those who overcome sin and become righteous will know the truth regarding the prophecy for the end of the World.

Do you think those people are not seeking the truth? Do you really think that they know that they are wrong and they keep on going spreading intentional lies?

P.S. Calling something a lie, does not make it a lie. Calling something truth, likewise does not make it a truth.

According to your view of God, if you are mistaken on one point and keep pushing it on people, then your are spreading lies and you will be burned alive?

I think you have some thinking to do.

[ClubV12]

...still waiting for Dr. Rich to post that date PK. Maybe I should stop holding my breath? :)

[ClubV12]

You know there is ONE big difference between 1844 and ALL other dates for a 2nd coming set AFTER 1844.

Many many biblical scholars around the world had come to the same conclusion William Millter had. SOMETHING big was going down in 1844, they just weren't sure what.

But for every man after that setting a date, it's just not profound biblical truth agreed on around the world. It's just dates based on various interpretations and fueled by speculation and supposition with much disagreement all around.

But Miller, really was onto something, and many biblical scholars knew it, religious or not, the evidence was hard to deny. The logic was, and remains, difficult to argue against (all though Dr. Rich has found a way, go figure...). In essence, what Miller offered was, "the real deal", as far as a date is concerned.

[fccool]

ClubV12,

Can you name at least 5 well-known Biblical scholars that agreed with Miller on the 1844 date?

[ClubV12]

Thats a loaded question. Outside of "Adventist" circles I would not consider William Miller himself a "well known" biblical scholar from the early 1800's. Is there even ONE "well known" biblical scholar from the EARLY 1800's, on ANY subject that people today would recognize? I don't think so, outside of a small group of intellectuals, no, not one.

But if your point is, William Miller was the single and sole "well known" source of understanding the termination date of the 2,300 day prophecy, OK. He was the first to go public, in America, in 1822. In fact, the history of the subject matter, the men involved (which include Ralph Waldo Emerson, by the way) is quite rich and fascinating. There are many names, I doubt any of which would be considered "well known" today. There is also a referrence, I forget the source, to some scholars OUTSIDE of America who came to the same basic conclusions as Miller!

It is rare for God to reveal to "one man" such profound truth when it is time for the revelation to come to the world. UNLESS, that man specifically is a prophet or prophetess, which is not generally in the realm of "bible scholars", most of whom are not "well known".

In understanding of the matter, God did reveal it to Ellen White first and William Miller never did fully understand it!

Personally, I don't consider William Miller a biblical scholar, he was a mathmatician who could count pretty good.

A Mr. Snow is really the guy that set the stage for the Great Disappointment (setting the date at October, 1844), by which time, Miller had largely faded from public view.

[Dr. Rich]

If you will check with Matthew, John and Peter's (Mark was Peter's scribe) you will find that both theives were cursing Jesus all the way up to Jesus' death. Only Luke's story has one of them as people mistakenly believe.

One speck of sin is enough to get you thrown in the lake of fire. God expects absolute perfection and nothing short of it. That is...for those living at the time of trouble when the real truth will be made known. That truth is right now being made known to a few of 'us' but it is clear no one wants to know and practice this truth.

PK, Do you really want to know the time? What would you do with the information if I told you? You do know there was a real reason God made the months (new moons) so that they would never be the same each year, didn't you? That is the number one clue. Without this understanding the template found in end time prophecy to find the time Jesus comes in the clouds would be impossible.

The time for Jesus to come in the clouds is within a week of a new moon after the fall equinox. Now go use your computer to find this date. You will find that 2012 fits somewhat, but since the time of trouble has not yet begun, the next time for this is 2019.

Now you can move backwards three and a half years and find the time the tribulation starts.

Yes, it is just that simple!

[BobRyan]

When I first posted on this thread, as to the fate of those who are part of the Camping Movement, I was curious as to the feeling among fellow SDA. Now I'm a bit concerned. We should not be, and I don't think most are, so arrogant as to think that we have a monopoly on the truth or that we have everything just right.

It is easy to be arrogant when one believes he has the truth, but pride goes before the fall.

For sure, I will keep this group in my prayers. I feel deeply for them, the mocking they will receive when they get to work on Monday. The embarrassment.

First of all - the whole point of this event for SDAs should be to reach out to our friends and neighbors with the real truth about the I.J -- not to join the world in mocking the idea that the Bible foretells end time events.

Secondly - it is clear that Satan would love to use Camping's movement to discredit the idea of believing in Bible prophecy.

Thirdly - Camping's argument is flawed in a great many places.

1. He claims the world is now 7000 years old as of May 21.

2. He claims that the 7 day week of Genesis 1 points to the earth being destroyed in the 7000 year.

3. He claims that since the flood started in the 2nd month and 17th day of the month Gen 7:11 that this is also when the rapture will take place and that then the world will go through God's destructive judgments until October of this year.

Clearly his model for Bible interpretation is flawed.

If nothing else - he should have picked up on the fact that the 7 days of Genesis 1 are not stated to be predictiving the end of the world "in the text" but in Dan 8 the 2300 days ARE stated to be predicting the end of time.

Why ignore the text saying that it IS predicting the end -- and only look at the text that says nothing of the kind?

in Christ,

Bob

[Gordon1]

William Miller was probably a better Bible student than most SDAs living today, despite the fact that he was confined to the imprecise and non-exhaustive Crudens' Concordance. He applied a careful & methodical set of study rules to his search.

With God's leading he was able to stimulate tens of thousands to Bible study through his lectures, where he dealt with questions from the floor extamporaneously. (Real time - on the spot) Only a thorough student (scholar) can welcome and meet a continual opposition with calm Biblical replies. This gave his meetings credibility and gravitas. No canned evangelism for Miller. Some of todays 'preachers ' can't operate without PowerPoint, let alone handle tough questions. Often they're preaching to the choir - NOT the intended focus group for a real evangelistic effort as in the examples of Paul, John Wesley or William Miller.

It's not clear how one could discount Miller as a Bible scholar. To me he's the archetype. A layman (not a schooled theologian) whose conversion led him to re-acquaint himself with the Scriptures, prompted by a feeling of great responsibility for his fellow man. If only a dozen SDAs had his zeal and perseverance, the work would have wrapped up long ago. So I don't follow your thinking here V12.

[Dr. Rich]

Great post Gordon1. I tend to agree with you on this.

[ClubV12]

Far be it from me to take anything away from William Miller as a bible student and scholar!

In particular his courage to come out, in public with his findings. THAT was the key difference between him and many others who agreed with his basic "math" but no way were THEY sticking their neck out!

In some respects, William Miller gets credit for the "Great Disapointment" in the same way Henry Ford gets credit for inventing the automobile. What Ford did was make the automobile readily available to the masses, but there were others that were paramount in the development.

Miller was close, close enough, with his various dates and his "final" chart was pretty much spot on. But before that final draft, over a couple of decades, his ideas and calculations slowly came to fruition, with many dates set before 1843. Even 1843 being adjusted to 1844, but not by Miller. Samuel Snow was the man who convinced Miller that October 1844 was THE date. Samuel Snow and a number of other prominent players "took the ball and ran with it". That late in the game "movement" very much over shadowed Miller's work and the message was widely received as a result. Miller never said the Lord was coming, he was loath to set a date, the people DEMANDED a date. Miller was pretty much exhausted with the whole thing after 1843 (and before that his calculations pointed to 1834 and 1836, also disappointments).

Rightfully so, Miller gets the credit, his math was as close as anybody could calculate it. Samuel Snow came up with the concept of a "tarrying time" to arrive at October 1844 following the failure of 1843.

Bless Millers heart, he himself did not wish to put such a strong emphasis on a date for the Lords return. He was just working out the math and concluding SOMETHING was about to happen. But others, perhaps eager for the glory, went after the 2nd coming message with great vigor.

It was a complex process involving a large number of people over a couple of decades, but yes, Miller deservedly gets the credit. Just like Henry Ford did... :)

[Dr. Rich]

William Miller was not close, he was right on and correct with the date. It was the event that was not right. And no, it was not the start of the IJ either. In fact, Jesus prophesied about all of this in Matthew 25 and Rev. 2 and 3. God gave Daniel a prophecy about the rock being cut out without hands, which is a new KOH (not Israel). The time for this new KOH to be set up as given in Dan. 8:14, that being the same date William Miller found. Therefore, This new KOH is now the SDA Church. Trouble is, they are spiritually dead (sleeping).

[ClubV12]

Uh, which date was Miller "right on" with again? 1834, 1836 or 1843? Give or take a few months in any given year along the way...

Miller arrived at October 1844 not from HIS own personal study, but from counseling with others who proposed that date. God was certainly leading Miller, AND other folks, along the path to accomplish His intended purpose, which culminated in October, 1844. The original 1844 month was MARCH, but when that passed, the "new" month became October.

I don't know, sounds like a shot gun approach to math more than a sniper rifle approach when it came to "date setting".

And yes, that was the start date of the IJ!

[Doug]

What does "IJ" mean?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

investigative judgment

[Doug]

I think people need to stop second guessing Gods word and just always be ready. I think we are not supposed to know the time because it will stop people from waiting for the last second to repent. Just be ready.

[Flyboy]

There is also a referrence, I forget the source, to some scholars OUTSIDE of America who came to the same basic conclusions as Miller!

Three churches in America were formed from Miller. One of them is closer to Miller's teachings even today, the Advent Christians.

OUTSIDE the US, the Baha'i (sp?) faith, surprisingly, also considered Miller's teachings as some of their key theology.

He was pretty well-known.

[Flyboy]

I agree, based on evidence SDA can point out many flaws using our favorite proof texts. I'm sure Baptists can point out where we err as well. Heck, Dr. Rich can prove to us that Paul's writings are pure bunk.

And... I can remember very, very clearly sitting in the pew of church when I was a boy and the minister saying that in the year 2000 (about 15 years away at that point) would never happen because the Earth would be 7,000 years old and that this is the Heavenly Sabbath, God would take us home by then. I remember thinking, "man, I hope not, I want to get married first!". After that I heard a few more sermons on this same line of thinking.

Obviously camping is wrong. But we cannot be so sure of ourselves either, at least not so much so that we stop using our brains.

[ClubV12]

An excellent point Doug. What has really brought me peace in that regard is rightousnes by faith. I THINK I actually I'm actually beginning to understand it. And nothing has brought more peace to my soul than this singular message.

The current battle I'm facing in that regard, is to understand it more fully. That delicate balance of not being presumptous, that it is "all" I need to do. Will I use the concept in such a way that I dismiss or ignore personal flaws? Will I use it to excuse my own decided effort to draw closer to Jesus? I don't think so, but I understand the potential danger of presuming the Lord will save me, no matter what. We do have our part to play, which is primarily, leaning on and accepting His grace.

I'm beginning to understand the unfathomable love of Christ for me, His acceptance of me where I stand right now, no matter how dark it may be in my life at any given moment in time. With all my flaws and warts and back sliding, He is still there, and He loves me.

When it all looks so hopeless I can still accept, by faith, I believe, He is with me and won't let me go. When I am weak, then I am strong, I get it! Praise God!

[Bravus]

Amen to that!

[phkrause]

I think people need to stop second guessing Gods word and just always be ready. I think we are not supposed to know the time because it will stop people from waiting for the last second to repent. Just be ready.

Exactly, Amen Doug and Happy Sabbath

[phkrause]

An excellent point Doug. What has really brought me peace in that regard is rightousnes by faith. I THINK I actually I'm actually beginning to understand it. And nothing has brought more peace to my soul than this singular message.

The current battle I'm facing in that regard, is to understand it more fully. That delicate balance of not being presumptous, that it is "all" I need to do. Will I use the concept in such a way that I dismiss or ignore personal flaws? Will I use it to excuse my own decided effort to draw closer to Jesus? I don't think so, but I understand the potential danger of presuming the Lord will save me, no matter what. We do have our part to play, which is primarily, leaning on and accepting His grace.

I'm beginning to understand the unfathomable love of Christ for me, His acceptance of me where I stand right now, no matter how dark it may be in my life at any given moment in time. With all my flaws and warts and back sliding, He is still there, and He loves me.

When it all looks so hopeless I can still accept, by faith, I believe, He is with me and won't let me go. When I am weak, then I am strong, I get it! Praise God!

Beautiful words ClubV12, Happy Sabbath

[Cosmin M.]

So I was talking to someone I knew who thinks they will get raptured today. I was telling him that it wasn't going to happen. So he proposed to me: If me or anyone around us get raptured you give me 100 lei (thats like 25$.) and if not, I give you 100 lei.

I already made a list of what I am going to get.. lol

[phkrause]

So I was talking to someone I knew who thinks they will get raptured today. I was telling him that it wasn't going to happen. So he proposed to me: If me or anyone around us get raptured you give me 100 lei (thats like 25$.) and if not, I give you 100 lei.

I already made a list of what I am going to get.. lol

[Dr. Rich]

Has anyone ever told their girlfriend that they didn't know when the wedding would take place, but always be ready with a fresh bath, washed clothes and such? NO! So what makes people think that God would treat His bride to be the same way?

Matthew 25:1-13 show us that the servants FOR the bride will be sleeping when the groom comes, so how can this event (the coming like a thief) be the same one as in the clouds? It is impossible for them to be the same event!

Jesus was told by His Father when and how He would come back for His bride as proven by verse ONE in Revelation. He had an angel give this same information to John (notice that Jesus did not come personally because if He had, then He would have lied when He told them He woul not come back until He would eat with them--therefore Saul/Paul's god was not and could not have been Jesus).

Notice to who this information was to made known by! It was NOT to anyone other than the bondservants of Jesus--the Priests, them being the 144k that have overcome sin and become righteous prior to the tribulation.

These 144k are the ones who wake up the sleeping servants for the bride, the ones who are to get the bride ready DURING THE TIME OF TROUBLE (See Rev. 7:9-16). Jesus comes like a thief only for and to His servants, just as the angel said He would come back. After all the whole world did NOT see Jesus go to heaven.

Now read Rev. 8 and notice all of the serious events that MUST happen prior to the third angels message goes out? These have NOT ever happened! They will NOT happen until after the Spring Equinox of 2016. enjoy!