End of the World

[Bravus]

Heh, ironically, what was in my memory was from Ellen White:

Quote:

When the king came in to view the guests, the real character of all was revealed. For every guest at the feast there had been provided a wedding garment. This garment was a gift from the king. By wearing it the guests showed their respect for the giver of the feast. But one man was clothed in his common citizen dress. He had refused to make the preparation required by the king.

Here's the full context in 'Christ's Object Lessons': http://www.blessedword.com/library/co24.html

[LifeHiscost]

My time of not sinning will come when I get to heaven. Not before. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... HE will change me and THEN I will no longer be corrupt.

And yes - I long for that day.

Where then does the above conclusion place one's self when the Word says this?

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments."1 John 5:2 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

If it is possible through sanctification to entirely cease sinning and merit salvation through our own works, we don't need a sacrificial Saviour at all, only a prompting Spirit and our own 'diligent efforts'. That's the harm of this doctrine: it makes the claim that a Saviour is not necessary.

Perhaps some of the lack of understanding where the Word states that one does not sin, might be clarified by a newer translation which seems to allow consistent Christian living without being flawless.

"Jesus answered them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, Whoever commits and practices sin is the slave of sin." John 8:34 AMP

I am a sinful person, however I haven't been trying to get better at it for many years, which I understand is what is involved when you're practicing.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

she say elsewhere that Jesus will continue his mediation on our behalf throughout the ages and that He intercedes on behalf of the unfallen worlds.

I'd be interested in knowing where you picked up this.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

After Christ leaves the most holy place, He does not IMMEDIATELY appear on this earth at His second coming.

There will be a space of time WHEN THERE WILL BE NO MEDIATOR IN HEAVEN. If you sin after Christ leaves the most holy place, you will not be saved.

Seems like a lot of nit-picking when this seems to declare the truth of when sin will be either totally excluded or we are unable to extricate ourselves from the same.

"Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."Revelation 22:9-13 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Hey - she was a prophet. But she was not infallible.

And therefor it seems necessary to prove ourselves less fallible than she.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

You MUST overcome sin on your own.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.John 15:4 NKJV

The Word of Jesus.

God blesses!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

she say elsewhere that Jesus will continue his mediation on our behalf throughout the ages and that He intercedes on behalf of the unfallen worlds.

I'd be interested in knowing where you picked up this.

God blesses!

I don't have the quote at my fingertips referring to mediation or intercession throughout the ages, but I did find the reference I had in mind for unfallen worlds.It is on page 254 of Messages to Young People.:

Quote:

While we rejoice that there are worlds which have never fallen, these worlds render praise and honor and glory to Jesus Christ for the plan of redemption to save the fallen sons of Adam, as well as to confirm themselves in their position and character of purity. The arm that raised the human family from the ruin which Satan has brought upon the race through his temptations, is the arm which has preserved the inhabitants of other worlds from sin. Every world throughout immensity engages the care and support of the Father and the Son; and this care is constantly exercised for fallen humanity. Christ is mediating in behalf of man, and the order of unseen worlds also is preserved by His mediatorial work.

I would understand "mediation" to be synonymous with "intercession." If unfallen beings are beneficiaries of Christ's mediation, why would He withdraw that support for those on earth at the end of time for any length of time? And why do the unfallen need Christ's mediation anyway? It sounds like EGW is saying that they are as totally dependent as are we upon Christ's mediation to keep them from sinning. If that is the case then it seems that we will need Christ as much as ever through the time of trouble and perhaps even throughout eternity. As God sustains our very heartbeat so we must depend upon Him to sustain us spiritually. I am helpless myself, but "I can do everything through him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13.

[Dr. Rich]

Bravus, like I, Ted Wilson and many others have been saying, 'don't use EGW's writings as athority--use the bible'. But better yet, use the words of Jesus Christ alone to answer the questions IF there are more than one answer as in Righteousness by faith. You will not find anyplace in Jesus' gospel where one is considered righteous because of what Jesus did.

[Dr. Rich]

Lifehiscost, Please READ that verse over again, as I don't think you understand what it said. HE WHO ABIDES IN ME. Did you see that? I takes one to abide in the words of Jesus in order to attached to that vine. It's each person's choice to abide or not. Same thing went for Adam--obey or not. When a person makes the choice ON HIS OWN to obey the covenant (ten commandments) the first of them is extreemly important. That is the ONE that makes the attachment to God.

What Jesus said in that verse is that one must first choose to obey Him. Then WITH the help of the HOly Spirit, one developes fruit. See how simple that is?

[phkrause]

Lifehiscost, Please READ that verse over again, as I don't think you understand what it said. HE WHO ABIDES IN ME. Did you see that? I takes one to abide in the words of Jesus in order to attached to that vine. It's each person's choice to abide or not. Same thing went for Adam--obey or not. When a person makes the choice ON HIS OWN to obey the covenant (ten commandments) the first of them is extreemly important. That is the ONE that makes the attachment to God.

What Jesus said in that verse is that one must first choose to obey Him. Then WITH the help of the HOly Spirit, one developes fruit. See how simple that is?

I Believe that was and is LHCs point Dr. Rich

[Dr. Rich]

PK, not sure what you mean. One must first abide in the words of Jesus--not the words of anyone else, in order to receive help from the vine. If one is attached to another vine then the Holy Spirit will not help in leading them into all truth. That other 'vine' will only lead them into the practice of believing lies. Truth is singular and absolute.

[phkrause]

PK, not sure what you mean. One must first abide in the words of Jesus--not the words of anyone else, in order to receive help from the vine. If one is attached to another vine then the Holy Spirit will not help in leading them into all truth. That other 'vine' will only lead them into the practice of believing lies. Truth is singular and absolute.

So than I'm guessing you don't believe that John's words are from God????

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

While we rejoice that there are worlds which have never fallen, these worlds render praise and honor and glory to Jesus Christ for the plan of redemption to save the fallen sons of Adam, as well as to confirm themselves in their position and character of purity. The arm that raised the human family from the ruin which Satan has brought upon the race through his temptations, is the arm which has preserved the inhabitants of other worlds from sin. Every world throughout immensity engages the care and support of the Father and the Son; and this care is constantly exercised for fallen humanity. Christ is mediating in behalf of man, and the order of unseen worlds also is preserved by His mediatorial work.

I would understand "mediation" to be synonymous with "intercession." If unfallen beings are beneficiaries of Christ's mediation, why would He withdraw that support for those on earth at the end of time for any length of time? And why do the unfallen need Christ's mediation anyway? It sounds like EGW is saying that they are as totally dependent as are we upon Christ's mediation to keep them from sinning. If that is the case then it seems that we will need Christ as much as ever through the time of trouble and perhaps even throughout eternity. As God sustains our very heartbeat so we must depend upon Him to sustain us spiritually. I am helpless myself, but "I can do everything through him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13.

Thanks very much for responding to my request, Tom. Not only am I in full agreement with the conclusions you have reached, but it has shifted my own mindset measurably, making the awesome God we worship more deeply loved in this household.

" But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”"Joshua 24:14 NKJV

God blesses!

[Dr. Rich]

WHAT PK? Have you ever read Jn. 14:26 and 17:17-20? This is the real test for truth. ONLY those who were eyewitnesses of Jesus were given the Holy Spirit to cause them to remember everything Jesus said and taught. John was one of those eyewitnesses who wrote it down so that those of 'us' who read them AND obey them will be able to claim the right to the vine. All others are counterfiets. Jesus verified the OT by reading from it and testifying about it.

[LifeHiscost]

So than I'm guessing you don't believe that John's words are from God????

Not sure where Dr Rich is settling, but I'm satisfied God speaks His Truth through many different human beings, including the high priest who was instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus, although it seems to be a given, a loyal servant of Jesus is still not as reliable as Jesus Himself.

"This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John, who faithfully reported everything he saw. This is his report of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near."Rev 1:1-3 NLT

This scripture text seems to make it quit obvious our Father depends on others besides Jesus to continue to expand the body of Christ through the spoken Word.

"And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone."Mark 16:13 NLT

God blesses!

[wayfinder]

And whom might those "others" be?

[LifeHiscost]

And whom might those "others" be?

"

God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near."Rev 1:1-3 NLT"

To identify some.

God blesses!

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

And whom might those "others" be?

"

God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near."Rev 1:1-3 NLT"

To identify some.

God blesses!

I guess that would include me :)

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"

God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near."Rev 1:1-3 NLT"

To identify some.

God blesses!

I guess that would include me

And I would account that as something to praise the Lord about, wayfinder. Hallelujah!!!!

[Bravus]

{sorry, wrong thread, moved - you might want to move your response too, ClubV12}

[ClubV12]

Counsel of the brethren is the most important point of all when considering a doctrinal foundation point. Someone poses an idea, his interpretation of the idea, perhap in collabaration with others and then that idea is studied, by a group. That study make take a short time, years or may still be continuing! But in the end, it is extremely rare, in bible times or now, for one man (or woman) to be the exclusive source of "truth". That applies to Ellen White as well, she too learned from and listend to the brethren.

Bravus, you may have some ideas worth considering. "We" on this forum simply discuss it, we make no lasting "law" out of it. But in an organized church setting, a board or group of select members will discuss it, tweak it, pray about it, vote it up or down or table it.

Like when Paul met with his counselors and they determined what the Gentiles should or shouldn't do as it concerned the Jews. Not one man's opinion, but a discussion leading to a binding decision for the church.

[skyblue888]

When Paul met with "his counselors" to determine what the Gentiles should or shouldn't do, after I don't know how many hours of debate, Peter stood up and said that the Holy Spirit had already settled the matter, before they came together.

sky

[Bravus]

Only a couple of days to go.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Bravus, you'll know before we do in North America...be sure and post so we know ahead of time and be prepared..