Salvation Lost?

[Sonny]

[miz3]

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:32.

The fact that you are on this website seeking help is proof that you have not reached the point of no return.

The Holy Spirit led you to Seventh Day Adventists.

So buck up you are NOT LOST YET! There is hope.

Find an Adventist Church that you feel comfortable in and continue you walk with God.

Oh! By the way don't expect to see perfection in the SDA Church because all the people there are recovering sinners just like you. Some are sincere and some are not!

Get the help suggested (some program) but attend an SDA Church. While at an SDA Church be careful about spilling too many details of your experience because Satan will use some in the Church to persecute you.

Find trustworthy persons to help you while attending the SDA Church. Of course my advice would be valid for any Church you would attend (Baptist, etc.).

[Parade Orange]

the steps are in the sermon on the mount!

look into it dear brothers and sisters

u will be blessed and actually become a blessing to a person crying out to be heard

[Sonny]

The man is simply going through the Romans 7 experience. The man of Romans 7 is a church member, may have been for years and years.

Here's the thing...believers have both the experience of Romans 7 and 8 throughout each day.

I have always maintained that the man of Romans 7 is converted...he has the law of God written in his heart, but he hasn't learned to walk in the Spirit on some sins (not that we get to heaven by law).

I won't make the same arguments because those who believe the man of Romans 7 is lost won't change their minds. Like I said, we experience both chapter 7 & 8.

You see you might believe that you aren't breaking any of the Ten Commandments...and thus claim only chapter 8. But the fact is the law is spiritual...it's claims are vast. The spirit of the law requires no self-seeking...no self-interests...it requires you to live for others and not your own self. So in this respect many, many believers who are keeping the letter of the law are having Romans chapter 7 experience.

So if we condemn this man for having a problem with porn we must condemn ourselves because we are not free of all selfishness, self-interests and self-love. Sin is sin.

[skyblue888]

Son, it is not about what you think or what I think Romans 7 and Romans 8 describe. If you will look only at the text, it is clear that the man of Romans 7 is a slave to sin and the man of Romans 8 is a victorious Christian. The man of Romans 8 is not once saved always saved. He meets with temptations and with the devil every day. The difference is that the man of Romans 8 has become one with Christ. That does not mean that he is beyond the power of temptation but he has found the remedy for sin: He is laying hold of the merits of Christ on a daily basis that he may be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might, that he may become more than a conqueror. The man of Romans 7 wills not to sin but he sins anyway because he has not yet found the remedy. If we fail to see this, we fail to understand the difference between a would-be Christian and one who has become one with Christ.

sky

[karl]

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:32.

I thought everyone was pre-forgiven for everything 2000 years ago. What is this about forgiveness in the future tense? And not only that, but unforgiveness, too!

My, my, what is the world coming to?

[miz3]

They were karl!

1. We are told in Scripture that we are still to confess our sins. 1John 1:9.

2. The Holy Spirit will convict us of our sins so that we know what those sins are. Once convicted then we do what 1John 1:9 tells us to do.

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

John 14:26.

3. It is when a person REJECTS the promptings of the Holy Spirit in showing us what sins we commit and then prompting us to confess those sins as sins that is what will NOT be forgiven.

You misstate the text cited and take it out of the context of the whole Bible.

Romans chapter five states that Christ paid the penalty for all sins and as such we are forgiven those sins (Justified as Paul puts it).

Romans chapter five does not state that we know that we have sinned. The knowledge of what our particular sins are is part of the Sanctifying Process (which comes AFTER Justification) and then we take the steps outlined above.

karl you need to read the Bible and get your Salvation processes in order. This would help greatly in your ability to understand what the Scripture actually says.

[karl]

I just can't do the schizophrenic thing with you guys who follow the down-under teachers.

I can't believe people are simultaneously justified and not justified.

If I was going to take your position, I would go all the way and claim Hebrews 10:10, as well. If you can be justified (sort of) without your cooperation, then you can be sanctified the same way. You're good to go without any personal cross.

Such a deal!!

[miz3]

karl, karl, karl. You are so mixed up you don't know which way is up.

Let's try again.

1. Per Romans chapter five everyone has been Justified! Finished work.

2. Its like taking a homeless bum on the darkest most evil street in America and finding out that unknown to himself that he has been adopted by the wealthiest most powerful man in America. At the instant the wealthiest man in America had legal custody of the bum, the bum was still a bum and didn't know anything about his adoption.

3. When the bum finds out about his adoption he is still a bum and has a bums habits and way of life. The only thing that has changed for the bum is his legal standing as the son of the wealthiest most powerful man in America. Other than the legal standing he is still a bum. The legal standing is a finished work. The legal standing work is a finished work and there is no need to do anything more. This work was done without the bums knowledge or consent.

4. Justification is our legal standing as adopted sons and daughters of the Most High God. Jesus Christ by His life, death, and resurrection gave us legal standing as the sons and daughters of the Most High God while we were yet sinners and didn't even know anything about what God was doing.

5. In our bum story, the bum can indeed REJECT the adoption, he can't chose adoption because he is already adopted in the eyes of the Law and in the eyes of everyone. If he REJECTS the adoption he will remain a bum.

6. If he does not reject the adoption (he does nothing because the process will naturally continue without his rejection) then the wealthiest and most powerful man in America will with his servants begin the process of changing the bum into a gentlemen. This process can be long and frustrating and the former bum may even become so frustrated that he wants to quit but the Father's helpers work very hard to keep the former bum from REJECTING the process and encourage him to persevere (endure) because in the end it will all be worth it.

7. The process of cleanup in the Bible is the Sanctification Process. Obviously this a whole new and completely different process than the Justification work. However, the former bum can at anytime during the process to make him a gentleman REJECT the work and return to being a bum. The clean up process requires the bum's cooperation (unlike the adoption process). If the bum obeys the process is easier, if the bum disobeys the process is more difficult. As the bum begins to see his filth and horrid ways he continually comes to his new father and asks for forgiveness for messing up during this process (confession, repentance). The new father understands and is patient with his new son and forgives the new son for messing up. He encourages his new son to trust in the process because in the end they both will rejoice. Sometimes it is very difficult to see how the process is good for the former bum and it requires that he trust the Father and the Father's servants by obedience to their orders. (faith, trust, belief). In this process the bum finds it difficult to stop acting like a bum and difficult to act like a gentleman. This is because the bum life is so ingrained in the newly adopted man. However, with patience, endurance, trust, faith, belief, and obedience it gets easier and easier to act more like a gentleman than to act like a bum.

There is the Law of the bum (which comes natural to the newly adopted one) and there is the Law of the gentleman (which is not natural to the newly adopted one). This is why the process is so frustrating and difficult and requires great endurance. This becomes especially true when the former bum is doing his work as a gentleman and the son of the Father and he comes in contact with old environments and old friends.

8. The main helper in the work of Sanctification is the Holy Spirit. In order for the newly adopted man to REJECT the Sanctification work he must REJECT the Holy Spirit because it is the Holy Spirit that does the clean up work.

9. The Bible says that rejecting the Holy Spirit and His work is unpardonable. Which means the newly adopted one will return to being a bum and nothing more will be done to make him a gentleman.

[karl]

So, in your illustration, there is no justification by faith?

The Bible speaks of justification by faith.

Paul speaks of justification by faith.

You're either justified or you're not. You can't be both unless you're schizophrenic.

[Sonny]

So, in your illustration, there is no justification by faith?

The Bible speaks of justification by faith.

Paul speaks of justification by faith.

You're either justified or you're not. You can't be both unless you're schizophrenic.

On another thread I already showed you that the whole human race stands justified in Christ. Justification by faith is receiving truth. I used Eph chapter 2 and many others verses

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

So, in your illustration, there is no justification by faith?

The Bible speaks of justification by faith.

Paul speaks of justification by faith.

You're either justified or you're not. You can't be both unless you're schizophrenic.

On another thread I already showed you that the whole human race stands justified in Christ. Justification by faith is receiving truth. I used Eph chapter 2 and many others verses

You're either justified or you're not. So you are talking about two different things. You should call one or the other of them something else. They cannot both be justification.

[miz3]

karl, karl, karl.

In the illustration it requires that the bum:

1. have "faith, trust, belief" that he has been adopted.

2. have "faith, trust, belief" that he will have a better life with the Father.

3. have "faith, trust, belief" that the Father and the Father's servants know what they are doing.

4. have "faith, trust, belief" that he won't end up back being a bum and that his adoption is permanent.

5. have "faith, trust, belief" that he can eventually become a gentleman like his Father.

etc. etc.

I think the bum has to have great gobs of faith and that faith must be continuous and constant otherwise the adopted one will become a permanent bum again.

Faith is not absent from the illustration, it is all over the illustration.

[Kevin H]

DblEspresso:

Thank you for your testimony, it is powerful! Please keep us posted on your path to victory. Now I don't know if they have a program specifically for porn sites, I assume that they do, but Teen Chalenge has been having excellent programs for addictions.

[Israfel]

How many live in Romans 7, (by the word of their tetimony on this forum), are judging them that claim to live Romans 8? ....hein!

So funny. You upholding victory and are crucifying CSDAs, How so? How blind!

Of course these folks knows themselves. Hope not all are doing so, for salvation'sake

[miz3]

Israfel,

Since you are among the "elite" of Romans chapter 8 who have "more than conquered" and thus are among those "fit" to be saved. You want the rest of us "who are lost" because we have not attained to chapter 8 status to be like you?

You feel you are so superior to the rest of us! Your perfection is not clearly evident to the rest of us. In fact we see sin all over you.

You have lied and we pointed this out to you. You are arrogant and that is a sin. You are far from having "attained" my friend.

Maybe you should take your own advice about the "beam in the eye", you know the one you quoted to me.

[karl]

I think the bum has to have great gobs of faith and that faith must be continuous and constant otherwise the adopted one will become a permanent bum again.

Faith is not absent from the illustration, it is all over the illustration.

Yes, but he is not justified by faith. He might be having faith that he is justified, but that is not the same thing as being justified by faith.

Where is the justification by faith? Where is the person becoming justified by faith after he is already justified by non-faith.

The Bible and EGW speak of being justified BY or THROUGH faith. Either that is something completely different from the justification you are pushing which is NOT by or through faith, or it is a second and unnecessary justification of a person who is already justified.

[miz3]

The Bible and EGW speak of being justified BY or THROUGH faith.

No! You are wrong. At least as far as the Bible is concerned. The Bible does NOT teach:

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH!

Your mistake is that you think FAITH is some sort of vehicle by which we obtain Justification.

NO! NO! NO!

The Bible does not teach that!!!!!

Faith is nothing more than TRUSTING what God has already done for you. That is you BELIEVE that God through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ has made you a JUST PERSON.

It is that simple!

Your mistake is you want Faith to come first then Justification as the after result. Such poppy [censored] is not Biblical!

Justification comes FIRST, and our FAITH THAT SUCH IS TRUE,comes SECOND!

This is what Romans chapter five is all about! It's there in plain unambiguous language.

John 3:16 and the surrounding context say the same thing.

First Christ died then we BELIEVE IN THAT FACT.

It does not say believe then Christ will die for your sins. It says instead Christ died for your sins and those that BELIEVE (FAITH, TRUST) will be SAVED.

The sequence is vital. Get it wrong as you have done and you miss the wonderful Truth of Salvation.

Follow carefully what the Bible says not what you want it to say.

Get it?

[Sonny]

If you will look only at the text, it is clear that the man of Romans 7 is a slave to sin and the man of Romans 8 is a victorious Christian.

I've been through this before. If you condemn the man of Romans 7, who Christ states "there's no condemnation", you condemn our friend with the porn problem. Not only that, you condemn your own self because you are a slave to the love of self, self-interests, etc and you are failing to fully reflect God's self-emptying agape love.

[Sonny]

You're either justified or you're not. So you are talking about two different things. You should call one or the other of them something else. They cannot both be justification.

I'm sorry, can you read your Bible? Take it as it reads:

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ - by grace you have been saved , 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

The Bible and EGW speak of being justified BY or THROUGH faith.

No! You are wrong. At least as far as the Bible is concerned. The Bible does NOT teach:

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH!

You'll need to discard at least these portions of God's Word:

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Also, you'll need to toss the entire books of James and 1 John.

[Sonny]

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ

(by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

You need to be honest with the Apostle Paul's assessment here.

First and foremost God saved you "in Christ". Hence Paul uses the phrase - "by grace (not faith) you have been saved".

Secondly, Paul tells us that as an individual when you hear this wonderful news that God has already saved you "in Christ" that you need to accept this truth by faith. That's called justification by faith.

And lastly, if you have accepted that "in Christ" you stand perfect before God's law, now you can begin to experience what you already have "in Christ", which is sanctification.

[karl]

Secondly, Paul tells us that as an individual when you hear this wonderful news that God has already saved you "in Christ" that you need to accept this truth by faith. That's called justification by faith.

No, what you have described above should be called "faith in justification." It is different from justification BY or THROUGH faith.

Can you not see the difference?

[BobRyan]

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ

(by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Paul is writing to the saints at Ephesus who "have been saved" - just as we see in Romans 1 where Paul again says he is writing to the saints in Rome.

This is not a case of Paul writing to the lost saying "you have been saved" as if the lost condition is really the saved condition.

In Romans 10 Paul says that in the case of those who are not now saved - the issue is how to "BE saved":

Rom 10

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

No, what you have described above should be called "faith in justification." It is different from justification BY or THROUGH faith.

Can you not see the difference?

Who justified you? God, in Christ Jesus. In Christ you stand just before God's law. That's justification. When you accept this justification you accept it through belief...faith. Your faith is towards Christ and His justification of you. It's justification accepted through faith or justification by faith.