Salvation Lost?

[skyblue888]

Whats so feminine about that name "sky" ???

In French it is "masculin"

sky

[ClubV12]

In American it sounds "pink".

OK, lets go with the French thing then.

[skyblue888]

I suspect, righteouness by faith is one of those things you have to experience personally for it to sink in.

ClubV12

___________________________

Yes it is important to experience it but unless we have an intellectual understanding of what righteousness by faith is, how can we experience it? In 1888 the Lord told us what it was in clear, distinct lines.

I am not talking about explaining it but about understanding what we must do in order to be saved.

"Present your case (helpless case) before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." F.W.106.

Club, is there anything difficult or too mysterious to understand in that statement?

Did God the Father ask us something difficult to do once the Holy Spirit has convinced us of sin and of our need of a Saviour? He says to us to come to Him just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, bringing to Him the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice. He tells us that His merits are sufficient.

And yet, after hearing these simple words, we say that we cannot be sure of what we must do in order to find God's approval, that righteousness by faith is a complex thing!!!

God the Father has told us in no uncertain terms that if we will come to Him trusting wholly in the merits of His Son that He will send the Holy Spirit to us to work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. Now if that is not righteousness by faith, what is it?

What more do we need to know?

sky

[skyblue888]

In American it sounds "pink".

OK, lets go with the French thing then.

Last time I looked, the sky was blue, when there are no clouds, that is.

sky :)

[ClubV12]

Maybe the key for some of us is:

"Present your case (helpless case) before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." F.W.106.

Not being helpless enough? That Friday night when I finally understood, I was feeling as helpless as I've ever been in my life. I was totally spent, gave up, couldn't do anymore, truly recognizing how I had SO messed up my life, bottom of the barrel, a dark place.

I don't think you have to be down that low to present your helpless case, but thats what it seems to have took for me to get it.

Interestingly enough, about two weeks before this I had SPECIFICALLY asked God to do something to humble me. I knew I needed it. I gave Him permission to do whatever it took, slap me upside the head, anything, I HAD to get to a more humble place in my life. He answered that prayer, big time, by Friday night I was humbled into the dust and hanging onto Him like Jacob wrestling with the angel. I HAD to have a blessing!

[skyblue888]

Maybe the key for some of us is:

"Present your case (helpless case) before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." F.W.106.

Club, I am shocked. For someone who is so convinced about the SoP, this is unacceptable, at least, difficult to accept.

And you know exactly what I mean.

Don't u?

This statement states the matter of salvation as to show how true it is that it is just as simple as accepting the alphabet. This is the remedy for sin, not only for some of us but for all.

sky

[ClubV12]

I don't know Sky. I'm reminded of Peter, how he walked with Lord, witnessed miracles, had a bunch of head knowledge, but he didn't "get it" until he denied Christ and was humbled into the dust. That was his conversion moment. Perhaps, thats what Friday night was for me? Until then I had CERTAINLY experienced the love of God, I certainly had a connection of some kind. But that Friday night, was like no other, it was a life changing event.

[skyblue888]

Club, yes, of course, some of us go through these exp.

But what I am talking about is the message the Lord sent to us in 1888, that most precious message. (T.M.91,92,93,96,97; 1 S.M.234,235) We need to pay more attention to what the Lord had to say. Mrs. White summarized that message in simple terms.

I urge you to read What Must I Do to be Saved and Letter to the 1888 Study Committee from www.hidden-treasures.ca

You will see that there is nothing private in these booklets and that it all comes from the pen of inspiration and that is is just as simple as ABC.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Forget all that, read this!

Why should he forget my list? Is there anything that says that he can not read both and evaluate the evidence? I have to admit I have not been able to make sense out of anything I've heard Sequeira write or speak, I personally can't make heads or tails out of his views, I don't know if he is right or wrong because I personally am unable to understand him. But I understand and love Hubech and Nies, now the chapters in Sanctuary and the Atonemnt was written in a more scholarly way but still understandable, and Fleming always makes things clear.

Now I do remember hearing Squeira say that those who hold my understanding of hell are speaking nonsense, so that prejudice me against him, but again I've read a few of his books, I've listened to him speak both in person and on tape, read both Webber's chapter on him and his response to Weber and I'm still baffeled. But since I can't understand him I can't make any comments pro nor against him. So may I invite people to read this post that Sonny listed but also look up the sources I listed. Look at the evidence from all sides. It does not hurt. God knows better than to give all the truth to one person. Sonny loves what Squeira has sto say so let's respect this (and I admire him for being able to do what I've tried and tried to do many times but has been unable to do, make sense of Squeira, I find that very impressive)

I'm editing seeing that Sky has also had a link. God is working with us and we like David can't all wear Saul's armor, we need to look at these and evaluate the evidence but realize that we can't wear sombody else's armor. I have shared what I found useful and like Heubeck titled his book "Make it Simple" I find it very clear and simple. I am willing to listen to any criticizisms or comments of the information I've recommended. Sonny has shared what he has found useful and Sky has also shared. Instead of "Forget that read this" Let's read all of it. I've goine through Soney's recommendation once, I'll re-read it and I will read what Sky has recommended as well and I hope you read my recommendations.

Thanks Kevin.

sky :)

[ClubV12]

Not one in a hundred understand it. It remains, as more than one author has noted, "elusive". I agree, it's as simple as ABC. So WHY don't we get it?

"The MERITS of Christ's sacrifice are SUFFICIENT to present to the Father in your behalf.” Faith and Works, p.106; Steps to Christ, p.36.

The fundamental problem? We either believe it, or we don't. Believe it or not, some folks have a really hard time believing it! In some cases, you can say it a hundred different ways, but as long as "doubt" remains, you can't quite grasp the "illusive thing". Doubt is very real, I don't know how to address that factor. I think the "how" is different for different people. Understanding it intellectually is a start, but it goes deeper than that. Often, when I try to explain it, plenty of folks insist on inserting a "but..." clause at the end. Some kind of "balance" with works to understand the "illusive thing", which is of course as simple as ABC. If you INSIST there is no "balance", they tend to reject the message, I THINK it's because of the doubt factor? When someone DOES appear to have grasped the essence of it, in it's simplicity I gaurentee you someone else will start up with the "but...." clause right away! Sowing seeds of doubt.

[skyblue888]

Not one in a hundred understand it. It remains, as more than one author has noted, "elusive". I agree, it's as simple as ABC. So WHY don't we get it?

"The MERITS of Christ's sacrifice are SUFFICIENT to present to the Father in your behalf.” Faith and Works, p.106; Steps to Christ, p.36.

The fundamental problem? We either believe it, or we don't. Believe it or not, some folks have a really hard time believing it! In some cases, you can say it a hundred different ways, but as long as "doubt" remains, you can't quite grasp the "illusive thing". Doubt is very real, I don't know how to address that factor. I think the "how" is different for different people. Understanding it intellectually is a start, but it goes deeper than that. Often, when I try to explain it, plenty of folks insist on inserting a "but..." clause at the end. Some kind of "balance" with works to understand the "illusive thing", which is of course as simple as ABC. If you INSIST there is no "balance", they tend to reject the message, I THINK it's because of the doubt factor? When someone DOES appear to have grasped the essence of it, in it's simplicity I gaurentee you someone else will start up with the "but...." clause right away! Sowing seeds of doubt.

ClubV12

___________________

Yes there will always be those who will question its simplicity but those who accept it just as God said it, just as He meant it, cannot go wrong.

No one doubted the alphabet. Why doubt the alphabet of God?

The Father, the Majesty of Heaven, has declared that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are SUFFICIENT to present to Him in our behalf. The Father is waiting to see who will believe this implicitly. Those who do are greatly blessed for "grace grace" will be upon them to enable them to will and to do God's pleasure. Acts 4:33.

sky

[cardw]

Not one in a hundred understand it. It remains, as more than one author has noted, "elusive". I agree, it's as simple as ABC. So WHY don't we get it?

The reason no one gets it is because it's nonsense. Hopefully, pretty soon you give up trying to make sense out of nonsense.

It can't be simple and complex at the same time. If you are going to stay in realm of rational thought then it either has to be simple or complex. It can't be both.

Since not even one in a hundred understand it I would say it is too complicated for most people to understand. I think it's more likely that no one understands it because it doesn't make sense.

Simply point to someone who actually gets it. No one in this discussion can seem to agree on what "it" is.

You can go to any number of discussions in Club Adventist and you won't find a single view on how to be saved and/or overcome sin that anyone can agree on.

There are 38,000 different Christian groups, each claiming to know the real truth.

Like many things claimed by Christians, there is a decided lack of evidence and a bunch of magical thinking around having or not having enough faith, whatever that is.

[Kevin H]

Things can be simple and complex at the same time. We see this through out nature and art and ourselves. The poet-philosopher Eli Siegel has pointed out that all beauty is a oneness of opposits.

Anyway, one illustration that Paul Heubech points out in "Keep it Simple" is of someone lost in the woods. They are hopelessly lost. Then they come upon a man who has spent his life traveling the woods and knows just where he is in the woods and how to take you to your destination. Once you meet him you are no longer lost. You are not home yet but you are no longer lost and you are on your way home.

[cardw]

Things can be simple and complex at the same time. We see this through out nature and art and ourselves. The poet-philosopher Eli Siegel has pointed out that all beauty is a oneness of opposits.

[Sonny]

Now you are scareing me...

[Sonny]

While the gospels give an account of the life of Christ it was Paul that explains the gospel and how it works. Jack's studies are primarily on Paul's writings.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead....

[whatisthis]

proverbs 16:24

a rightouse man falls seven times but he gets back up again!

its very very hard to get back up again and again and again

GOD calls the man rightouse anyway! GOD knows we fal n fall n fall

but the trick is to going back to GOD for the billionth time and accept HIS GRACE N FORGIVENESS

"Seven times" seems to be an expression that refers to complete (perfect number kind of complete). In this instance it looks like it's referring to perfect sinning. But Jesus takes that a step farther in answering his disciples about how often to forgive. "Seventy times seven"! God asks us to pattern after Him, so that's just a small bit of imagery about the fact that God's perfect grace is bigger than our perfect sinning.

[whatisthis]

There's a verse that answers Satan's perfect trouble making. "You pushed me violently, that I might fall, But the LORD helped me. The LORD is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation." Psalm 118:13,14

God has made you hate the porn that has entrapped you. Go with that, but don't hate yourself. This is time for you to realize that the disgust you are feeling is being put in your heart for satanic traps, but not for yourself. You are a son of the King, He has more than enough for the lowliest servant in His house! You may think you are lowly, but He still has something for you-- and He really will not greet you as lowly!

The trap here that ties you to sin may well be "I'm lost anyway, now I have nothing but this porn. I'm so lost I can't turn around, so I have to keep shaming myself (and feeding on the shame of others, which is what porn is) because I'm an outcast and no longer wanted. --But while you are yet a great way off, wallowing in the pigstye so to speak, God is calling you to Himself, and eagerly awaiting taking you in His arms, covering you with His robe, and putting a ring on your finger!

So you will find that as you leap out of that pigpen and get walking, you can do this, because this is a wonderful journey and you have been empowered to walk away from sin even while you are still trying to eat husks! There are fatted feasts of good things from the salvation walk just waiting for you! You don't have to keep lying there in the pigpen. The LORD is your strength -- and even though you don't see Him there He's giving the strength to walk away!

Here's one for me, when I feel like a fool duped by the devil: "Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful" (you can't be merciful, by the way, to someone who doesn't need mercy! But here comes the best part.) "The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me. Return to your rest, O my soul, For the LORD has dealt bountifully with you." Psalm 116:5-7 "Simple" is one of those phrases that can mean "not so bright". But God is merciful to my dumb moves! He loves me! And He loves you too!

[whatisthis]

"I am a reproach among all my enemies,

But especially among my neighbors,

And am repulsive to my acquaintances;

Those who see me outside flee from me...Blessed be the LORD,

For He has shown me His marvelous kindness in a strong city!

For I said in my haste,

“I am cut off from before Your eyes”;

Nevertheless You heard the voice of my supplications

When I cried out to You. " Psalm 31:11,21,22

You may feel like a captive in a strong city (of sin) but the LORD has great mercy for you!

[whatisthis]

Now, here is a couple of quotes from a lady who loved Jesus and put things on this topic better than I can do, but take special note of the verses she's quoting:

"The blood of Jesus is pleading with power and efficacy for those who are back-slidden, for those who are rebellious, for those who sin against great light and love. Satan stands at our right hand to accuse us, and our Advocate stands at God's right hand to plead for us. He has never lost a case that has been committed to Him. We may trust in our Advocate; for He pleads His own merits in our behalf. Hear His prayer before His betrayal and trial. Listen to His prayer for us; for He had us in remembrance. {7BC 948.5}

He will not forget His church in the world of temptation. He looks upon His tried and suffering people, and prays for them. . . . Yes, He beholds His people in this world, which is a persecuting world, and all seared and marred with the curse, and [He] knows that they need all the divine resources of His sympathy and His love. Our Forerunner hath for us entered within the veil, and yet by the golden chain of love and truth, He is linked with His people in closest sympathy. {7BC 948.6}

He is making intercession for the most lowly, the most oppressed and suffering, for the most tried and tempted ones. With upraised hands He pleads, "I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands." God loves to hear, and responds to the pleadings of His Son . . . [Hebrews 4:14-16 quoted] (RH Aug. 15, 1893). {7BC 948.7}

[whatisthis]

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:14-16

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to clease us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Hebrews 8:12

"Behold, the days are coming says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant...this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in ther minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people...For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more!" Jeremiah 31:31-34 (Look it up, the ... parts are good too!)

"I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you." Isaiah 44:22

"Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, and He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7

"For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you." Isaiah 54:7

"Shall the prey be taken from the mighty...Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, And the prey of the terrible be delivered; For I will contend with him who contends with you" and get this "And I will save your children." Isaiah 49:25

That's just a few of the promises!

[Stan]

good stuff, thanks for posting.

[whatisthis]

Oh, by the way, one more really good one in case I'm tempted to cling to shame:

"For the Lord GOD will help me; Therefore I will not be disgraced; Therefore I have set My face like a flint, And I know that I will not be ashamed. He is near who justifies Me; Who will contend with me? Let us stand together. Who is my adversary? Let him come near me. Surely the Lord GOD will help me; Who is he who will condemn me? Indeed they will all grow old like a garment; the moth will eat them up." Isaiah 51:7-9

This verse is not only prophetic of the sufferings of Jesus, who in His Father's strength took on the adversary, it's mine too, because in His victory is my victory!

[skyblue888]

The whole matter boils down to this very question:

Are the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf or not?

If you believe they are then the matter of salvation is settled for you but if you do not believe they are, then what?

I am sure all agree that Christ's sacrifice was of value beyond estimate. Since it was of value beyond estimate, should we not hold in abomination all other merits save His?

In 1888 the people were invited to appropriate to themselves the merits of Jesus Christ that His righteousness might be brought into their lives and His righteousness would have accomplished everything. But the light was resisted and it has been, in a large degree, kept away from the church and from the world ever since.

But the invitation still stands: Today, once again, we are invited to appropriate to ourselves the merits of Jesus Christ by claiming them. We are invited to claim His merits as our very own and the Father will treat us according to the merits of His Son, loving us as He loves Him, and thus be greatly blessed.

This message is precious light shining from the throne of God.

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

It is not natural for a man to live the Christian life any more than it is natural for a man to walk upon the water.

"The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

This is the only way we can attain to righteousness in this life.

This is the true religion, the only religion of the Bible.

sky

"If you have seen the truth of God, press right to the light and put up the bars behind you... You are not to stand back and say, 'I will wait until my brethren have seen it.' If you do, you will go on in darkness." See F.W.77,78.

[Sheila7]

Thank you Sonny, you have taken WILL to the next level-Spiritually.