Salvation Lost?

[skyblue888]

Now, here is a couple of quotes from a lady who loved Jesus and put things on this topic better than I can do, but take special note of the verses she's quoting:

"The blood of Jesus is pleading with power and efficacy for those who are back-slidden, for those who are rebellious, for those who sin against great light and love. Satan stands at our right hand to accuse us, and our Advocate stands at God's right hand to plead for us. He has never lost a case that has been committed to Him. We may trust in our Advocate; for He pleads His own merits in our behalf. Hear His prayer before His betrayal and trial. Listen to His prayer for us; for He had us in remembrance. {7BC 948.5}

He pleads His own merits in our behalf.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits we appropriate the blessings of light and peace

and joy in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744.

And that is the kingdom of God within us. (Rom.14:17)

sky

[Sheila7]

Maybe the key for some of us is:

"Present your case (helpless case) before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." F.W.106.

Not being helpless enough? That Friday night when I finally understood, I was feeling as helpless as I've ever been in my life. I was totally spent, gave up, couldn't do anymore, truly recognizing how I had SO messed up my life, bottom of the barrel, a dark place.

I don't think you have to be down that low to present your helpless case, but thats what it seems to have took for me to get it.

Interestingly enough, about two weeks before this I had SPECIFICALLY asked God to do something to humble me. I knew I needed it. I gave Him permission to do whatever it took, slap me upside the head, anything, I HAD to get to a more humble place in my life. He answered that prayer, big time, by Friday night I was humbled into the dust and hanging onto Him like Jacob wrestling with the angel. I HAD to have a blessing!

"Humbly depend upon Him, God pours GRACE in the HUMBLE heart (James 4:6) and faith accesses grace (Romans 5:2)

[skyblue888]

Shiela, to depend upon Him is to depend upon His merits alone.

All the religions of this world have the merits of the creature as their foundation. But the true religion, the only religion of the Bible has its foundation in the divine merits of Jesus Christ and in the divine merits of Jesus Christ alone and unless we appropriate them to ourselves by faith we have no hope. The grace of the Holy Spirit is promised to those who come to God just as they are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

To accept the truth that the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour are sufficient to present to the Father is our behalf is to take a humble position for it shows that our trust is not in ourselves or in anything that we have done but in the merits of the infinite sacrifice that was made for us to bring pardon and peace and everlasting righteousness.

Trusting in the all-sufficient merits of Christ is true humility, true self-surrender.

sky

[Sonny]

Thank you Sonny, you have taken WILL to the next level-Spiritually.

You are welcome....Sorry to come off hard-edged, but that's one of my flaws. I am very defensive of the gospel.

[Sheila7]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Not one in a hundred understand it. It remains, as more than one author has noted, "elusive". I agree, it's as simple as ABC. So WHY don't we get it?

The reason no one gets it is because it's nonsense. Hopefully, pretty soon you give up trying to make sense out of nonsense.

It can't be simple and complex at the same time. If you are going to stay in realm of rational thought then it either has to be simple or complex. It can't be both.

Since not even one in a hundred understand it I would say it is too complicated for most people to understand. I think it's more likely that no one understands it because it doesn't make sense.

Simply point to someone who actually gets it. No one in this discussion can seem to agree on what "it" is.

You can go to any number of discussions in Club Adventist and you won't find a single view on how to be saved and/or overcome sin that anyone can agree on.

There are 38,000 different Christian groups, each claiming to know the real truth.

Like many things claimed by Christians, there is a decided lack of evidence and a bunch of magical thinking around having or not having enough faith, whatever that is.

Rich, My New King James version Bible lists the following texts explaining to the inquiring mind what faith is all about:

Heb 2:4, Mat 17:20, Romans 10:17, 2 Cor 5:7, Gal 5:6, Eph 2:8, Eph 6:16, 2 Thess 3:2, Heb 11:1, Heb 11:6, James 5:15.

I find the most notable of all of these to be Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

If it is evidence you are looking for, the Holy Scripture is the first and foremost place to find it.

As you search the Scriptures, opening your mind and heart to the truths, mysteries, secrets, revealed therein, your eyes will be opened to the evidence you may be looking for.

May we all pray for God's guidance through His Holy Spirit, for Rich and DblEspresso? (I'm asking your permission)

In Christ's holy love & grace,

Sheila7

[cardw]

Rich, My New King James version Bible lists the following texts explaining to the inquiring mind what faith is all about:

Heb 2:4, Mat 17:20, Romans 10:17, 2 Cor 5:7, Gal 5:6, Eph 2:8, Eph 6:16, 2 Thess 3:2, Heb 11:1, Heb 11:6, James 5:15.

I find the most notable of all of these to be Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

[ClubV12]

Thief on the cross "got it", he grasped just when he needed it!

[Sheila7]

Cardw//Rich, You said,"I've tried all of these things and it doesn't work." First, what are "all of these things?"

I gave you information about "faith." Is "faith" one of "these things?" If so, are you saying you have tried having "faith" and it doesn't work for you?

Secondly, Curious why none of the SDA scholars on this thread have not, so far, responded specifically to your post?

[ClubV12]

What CAN you say to someone who rejects the concept of faith? Other than share your personal testimony it's not like you can scientifically "prove" faith works.

cardw says,

"...there is a decided lack of evidence."

There always will be Rich, it's simple and complex at the same time. Simple in that even an uneducated person can grasp the essence of salvation. Complex in that the most highly educated can find new meaning and wonder in it. In fact, it's the primary subject we will spend all eternity trying to grasp, the wonder of it all, that God gave His life to save us.

[cardw]

Cardw//Rich, You said,"I've tried all of these things and it doesn't work." First, what are "all of these things?"

I gave you information about "faith." Is "faith" one of "these things?" If so, are you saying you have tried having "faith" and it doesn't work for you?

[cardw]

cardw says,

"...there is a decided lack of evidence."

There always will be Rich, it's simple and complex at the same time. Simple in that even an uneducated person can grasp the essence of salvation. Complex in that the most highly educated can find new meaning and wonder in it. In fact, it's the primary subject we will spend all eternity trying to grasp, the wonder of it all, that God gave His life to save us.

This is an excellent example of the generous use of semantic tricks. You combine opposites such as simple and complex and say how wonderful that they both exist in being saved. That is called double think. It's a classic brain washing technique described in George Orwell's book 1984. Though in George Orwell's book the populace was told that war was love. In Christianity the destruction of the wicked by fire is called love.

I can see a red car and exclaim that it is really green and blue even though it looks red. I know this by faith and isn't it wonderful?

The other semantic trick is to claim that god gave his life for us. The fallacy is created because Jesus is still alive. He didn't give his life. He suffered, but he didn't really die. But the phrase "Jesus suffered and died for our sins" is said so many times that no one questions it.

God becomes this magic box that contains all those things that don't make sense. You can label it faith, but that is simply a semantic phrase shift. It is simply wrapping the same fallacy in a different package. It's a form of dishonesty.

[miz3]

Unfortunately cardw your experience is not new and your experience is all too common in regard to religion.

I do agree with your assessment of the current (also in the past as well) state of religion in the world.

I do not agree that this is the fault of God but it is the fault of stupid humans who do not know how God and the Bible works. I know you will not agree with this last statement but we can agree to disagree.

[cardw]

Unfortunately cardw your experience is not new and your experience is all too common in regard to religion.

I do agree with your assessment of the current (also in the past as well) state of religion in the world.

I do not agree that this is the fault of God but it is the fault of stupid humans who do not know how God and the Bible works. I know you will not agree with this last statement but we can agree to disagree.

If religion is our source of knowledge about god and my experience is common then it seems to reason that this god does not exist.

The only other alternative is that this god is cruel.

In Christianity the Bible is the source of knowledge about this god and the Bible describes a very cruel god.

So it's not about agreement for me. It's about what makes sense.

[Sonny]

The only other alternative is that this god is cruel.

No, it's not the only alternative:

Read

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The only other alternative is that this god is cruel.

No, it's not the only alternative:

Read

The only thing this book presents is a set of fallacies indicating that god is crazy and has multiple personalities.

The justifications in this book for god's violence in the Bible are appalling.

This is the same crazy thinking I was brought up with, so it presents nothing new.

[ClubV12]

Religion aside, I can't figure out why you have such a hard time with the idea of "simple and complex" at the same time. You see that every where in nature and in science. It's not that hard a concept to grasp, it doesn't take faith, you don't even have to believe in God.

As a computer programmer I see it all the time. As an ASE certified mechanic (which I also am) I see it a LOT in race cars! Race cars have only the components required to get the job done, they are as simple as possible. Now, just TRY to make all those simple parts work together, now THAT is complex! Software is the same way, a brilliant interface you might call "elegant", it's intuitive, the user just "clicks" here and there and it works. Dig deeper, inside it's incredibly complex!

We see in nature, a simple flower, but look deeper, some are very complex! Even more so when you start analyzing on a science level.

Man, the world is filled with simple/complex examples! The bible reigns supreme in that regard. An amazing book that is at once, simple and deeply complex.

But it's rather pointless to try and explain this to someone who has already rejected the concept of faith. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, without faith, you literally "don't have a prayer" of understanding them!

[BobRyan]

If religion is our source of knowledge about god and my experience is common then it seems to reason that this god does not exist.

The only other alternative is that this god is cruel.

In Christianity the Bible is the source of knowledge about this god and the Bible describes a very cruel god.

So it's not about agreement for me. It's about what makes sense.

In the Bible we are told that Jesus (who IS Gd) died for our sins - taking our debt under the law and providing the payment that the Law of the universe demands.

In the Bible we are told that all mankind is lost and in need of that salvation solution God has provided a the cost of the sacrifice of Himself for our sins.

In the Bible we are told that lost humanity that accepts that salvation solution - get eternal life in peace love harmony with God and nature.

In the Bible we are told that the part of lost humanity that rejects the Gospel solution - will be raised in the 2nd resurrection, will be judged for their sins, will then be tormented in the lake of fire for their sins and then cease to exist - will then be turned to dust "destroyed both body and soul".

Some who object - suppose that if they simply refuse to think about it or possibly if they "vote against it" God will not do that to the wicked.

I suggest that they seek a more satisfying solution.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2.

"It is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified... Romans 2:11-16.

[cardw]

Religion aside, I can't figure out why you have such a hard time with the idea of "simple and complex" at the same time. You see that every where in nature and in science. It's not that hard a concept to grasp, it doesn't take faith, you don't even have to believe in God.

As a computer programmer I see it all the time. As an ASE certified mechanic (which I also am) I see it a LOT in race cars! Race cars have only the components required to get the job done, they are as simple as possible. Now, just TRY to make all those simple parts work together, now THAT is complex! Software is the same way, a brilliant interface you might call "elegant", it's intuitive, the user just "clicks" here and there and it works. Dig deeper, inside it's incredibly complex!

We see in nature, a simple flower, but look deeper, some are very complex! Even more so when you start analyzing on a science level.

Man, the world is filled with simple/complex examples! The bible reigns supreme in that regard. An amazing book that is at once, simple and deeply complex.

But it's rather pointless to try and explain this to someone who has already rejected the concept of faith. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, without faith, you literally "don't have a prayer" of understanding them!

Your examples are not of single items that are both simple and complex. A car is not simple and complex. You can pick out individual parts of a car and call it simple, but that is not the same thing as calling the whole car both simple and complex.

When a person says that not one in a hundred understands it, but it is so simple at the same time, they are presenting an oxymoron. If it is so simple you would think someone would understand it. This is nonsense.

That means not even one in a hundred understands it. This might be true because maybe there isn't one in 7 billion that understands it.

It may be true that people are accepting Christianity without understanding what they are accepting. All it takes is a little fear.

[cardw]

In the Bible we are told that lost humanity that accepts that salvation solution - get eternal life in peace love harmony with God and nature.

In the Bible we are told that the part of lost humanity that rejects the Gospel solution - will be raised in the 2nd resurrection, will be judged for their sins, will then be tormented in the lake of fire for their sins and then cease to exist - will then be turned to dust "destroyed both body and soul".

Some who object - suppose that if they simply refuse to think about it or possibly if they "vote against it" God will not do that to the wicked.

I suggest that they seek a more satisfying solution.

in Christ,

Bob

There it is. This is the true core of Christianity. Accept it or be tormented in the lake of fire.

I haven't refused to think about it. I have thought about it very thoroughly and I have found it wanting.

I find it reprehensible that Christians worship a god who would use torture and at the same time tell us to forgive. You see the fruits of this idea throughout the history of the Christian church.

This is not about my vote. It is about reason and the irrationality of worshipping a god like that.

[ClubV12]

Ha Ha Ha,,

"...but that is not the same thing as calling the whole car both simple and complex."

Uh,, right, try telling THAT to the pitt crew, any pitt crew! Today in professional racing most pitt crew members actually have engineering degrees. That guy changing the tires? Yeah, him too! Simple car, highly complex getting it to do what you want. It's a perfect example, for a gear head, they "get it" in a heart beat!

[cardw]

Ha Ha Ha,,

"...but that is not the same thing as calling the whole car both simple and complex."

Uh,, right, try telling THAT to the pitt crew, any pitt crew! Today in professional racing most pitt crew members actually have engineering degrees. That guy changing the tires? Yeah, him too! Simple car, highly complex getting it to do what you want. It's a perfect example, for a gear head, they "get it" in a heart beat!

Name dropping is not reason. It shows a lack of reasoning and a reliance on appeals to authority and labels.

I don't care if everyone watching the race has an engineering degree. The process of getting the car to work and the car itself are not the same thing. These are semantic games.

[ClubV12]

Ok, bad example, obviously you've never had to deal with setting up a race car.

...but boy if you had, you would certainly "get it"! Weather and track conditions change constantly, what worked last time, doesn't work today.

We could move on to flowers, but I suspect the results would be the same. You either "get it" or you don't.

[Sheila7]

Cardw/Rich, From what you are saying, it seems that you do not believe in God and are trying to sabotage this thread.

I am sorry now that I've answered you at all, however, one last post to you. It is my belief that the creator God of this universe is a God of love and justice. God and His Son Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit has helped me change my life. The Holy Bible has been my guide.

It is simple. Not complicated at all. God knows your thoughts.

When one sincerely seeks the truth in Christ through prayer and Bible study you become changed, becoming closer in deed and thought to being like Christ. This is a Biblical promise.

Since you do not believe in God and His Word, the Bible, why are you on this Christian thread? Your motives have become clear to me.

[BobRyan]

In the Bible we are told that lost humanity that accepts that salvation solution - get eternal life in peace love harmony with God and nature.

In the Bible we are told that the part of lost humanity that rejects the Gospel solution - will be raised in the 2nd resurrection, will be judged for their sins, will then be tormented in the lake of fire for their sins and then cease to exist - will then be turned to dust "destroyed both body and soul".

Some who object - suppose that if they simply refuse to think about it or possibly if they "vote against it" God will not do that to the wicked.

I suggest that they seek a more satisfying solution.