Salvation Lost?

[cardw]

Ok, bad example, obviously you've never had to deal with setting up a race car.

...but boy if you had, you would certainly "get it"! Weather and track conditions change constantly, what worked last time, doesn't work today.

That's because there are so many variables. Theoretically, given enough information, you could get the same results every time. Once that happens you no longer have a sport.

Experience does improve results. That means that there is something that happens that allows some people to "guess" better than others. I think this is based on a misunderstanding of the human brain. Our conscious minds simplify things so that we have some type of reference or narrative to allow us to label generalities. It is obvious that the brain must be processing the data and summarizing it to a metaphorical form for experts in many different disciplines.

This is not being simple and being complex at the same time. It is always complex. It is only the perception that changes.

So I can understand the metaphorical application of perceiving simplicity of a complex system. That would be one description of beauty.

But we are not talking about appreciating art. We are talking about a decision that involves a person's eternal life. And to be fair and just, that choice has to be comprehensible.

So far I find no evidence that the decision and the requirements for salvation are simple or comprehensible.

[cardw]

Cardw/Rich, From what you are saying, it seems that you do not believe in God and are trying to sabotage this thread.

[miz3]

cardw,

I must say you make a very compelling case for your point of view.

The fact is their is no amount of reasoning, physical or intangible evidence, or moral evidence, or almost anything else that will convince you other than you are now. If I left anything out on my list it is because I could not think of anything else but whatever could be added I will leave to you and others.

I am sorry that your experience in Christianity was so onerous. I however cannot change that. It is what it is.

You seem quit contented now and that is fine. I do not wish it to be otherwise. Of course given your current testimony it would be foolish to try and talk you into something else especially if you are convinced that it will be worse than what you have now.

Until you are convinced of something better, I agree with you stay as you currently are. Trying to bludgeon you accomplishes nothing in fact as I have found out earlier it might even drive you farther away.

We can agree to disagree and leave it at that for now.

[cardw]

cardw,

I must say you make a very compelling case for your point of view.

The fact is their is no amount of reasoning, physical or intangible evidence, or moral evidence, or almost anything else that will convince you other than you are now. If I left anything out on my list it is because I could not think of anything else but whatever could be added I will leave to you and others.

[Sheila7]

"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17) "if you have no good feelings, if you be but willing, you are invited: therefore come! You have no belief and no repentance-come to Him, and He will give them to you. Come just as you are, and take freely."

[ClubV12]

"Help thou my unbelief", was the man's request.

I like that story, I pray that prayer.

[Parade Orange]

amen SHEILA

amen CLUBV12

[skyblue888]

"The world will be rocked to sleep in the craddle of carnal security. The multitudes are striving to forget God, and they eagerly accept fables, that they may pursue the path of self-indulgence undisturbed." HH Oct.16,1886.

[Guest]

Many people just look at the thing backwards.

God is not saying, "Do what I say, or I will kill you" He is saying, "You are dying, let me save you!"

You see, you are already lost, and headed for eternal destruction. You were born that way, thanks to Adam and Eve. God is trying desparately to show you how to avoid that. To save you. He has shown us what's ahead, and has given us a road map, for how to make it out alive.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

[cardw]

"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17) "if you have no good feelings, if you be but willing, you are invited: therefore come! You have no belief and no repentance-come to Him, and He will give them to you. Come just as you are, and take freely."

I am well aware of this text. This did not work for me. I did this very sincerely and for many years. At some point I came to realize that I was making it up in my own mind.

I was taught that the human heart could not be trusted and was evil. I'm sorry, my heart has been pretty accurate and has informed me quite well on how to find peace and joy.

So, unless I see results, I'm not buying.

[cardw]

"The world will be rocked to sleep in the craddle of carnal security. The multitudes are striving to forget God, and they eagerly accept fables, that they may pursue the path of self-indulgence undisturbed." HH Oct.16,1886.

This is what Christians would like to believe. And it may be true for some apostate Christians. For many unbelievers Christianity is too immature. Their standard of truth is far higher than most Christians.

I have found that the shame taught to Christians often drives them into excess and it is the Christians who have more difficulty with "sin." I have talked to a number of hotel managers and they state that porn rental is triple in the hotel when they have Christian conventions.

Christianity is strong on being right and weak on producing results. I would rather have results.

[cardw]

Many people just look at the thing backwards.

God is not saying, "Do what I say, or I will kill you" He is saying, "You are dying, let me save you!"

You see, you are already lost, and headed for eternal destruction. You were born that way, thanks to Adam and Eve. God is trying desparately to show you how to avoid that. To save you. He has shown us what's ahead, and has given us a road map, for how to make it out alive.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Death is one thing, but why the torture? Of what value is burning people for a few days when they are going to be dead for eternity? It makes no sense to raise people from the dead simply to torture them for a few days. What is the lesson? In some versions of Christianity god tortures people in a lake of fire for all eternity.

There is no reconciliation between a god of love and a god who is willing to torture. This is sickening to me to even consider that there are people who consider torture by god as reasonable.

[Israfel]

Originally Posted By: RLH

Many people just look at the thing backwards.

God is not saying, "Do what I say, or I will kill you" He is saying, "You are dying, let me save you!"

You see, you are already lost, and headed for eternal destruction. You were born that way, thanks to Adam and Eve. God is trying desparately to show you how to avoid that. To save you. He has shown us what's ahead, and has given us a road map, for how to make it out alive.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Death is one thing, but why the torture? Of what value is burning people for a few days when they are going to be dead for eternity? It makes no sense to raise people from the dead simply to torture them for a few days. What is the lesson? In some versions of Christianity god tortures people in a lake of fire for all eternity.

There is no reconciliation between a god of love and a god who is willing to torture. This is sickening to me to even consider that there are people who consider torture by god as reasonable.

Rich, I have a message for you, but I must go and get some sleep now. If you can wait, I will send it to you on the morrow.

[John317]

It makes no sense to raise people from the dead simply to torture them for a few days. What is the lesson?

The people who are lost are raised in order to demonstrate that they wouldn't change. Their characters are set in their ways. If given eternal life, they would continue their rebellion against God.

Another reason the wicked are raised is because God respects their right to know why they aren't among the saved. Even in human courts of law, people have a right to understand why they are condemned.

A third reason they are raised is in order to see the evidence and to agree that God is right in His judgment.

A fourth reason is that the entire universe will witness the fact that death is the result of rebellion against the Life-Giver.

Finally, a fifth reason is that sin and evil must be punished. The first death is not a punishment for sin, but rather it is the consequence of being a child of Adam and Eve. The punishment upon sin occurs only at the second death, which takes place after the Great White Throne Judgment.

[Kevin H]

I'd like to give an Amen to John and Richard's posts (and welcome back John)

I want to dissagree with you Cardw about the torture, that has been what we have read back into the text. Yes, there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun, but what heaven and hell are is no more than 2 mindsets when seeing God in person. When Jesus was born the Shepherds and Wisemen were overcome by joy, and Herod was horrified and went even deeper into his insanity.

Now God is overwheming and when prophets saw him they felt like they were being burnned alive, but as time went by they found that they could not only endure this fire but came to thrive in the fire, loved living in this fire, and hated to be away from this fire. The "fire" is the glory, brightness, joy and love of God.

God treates us all the same, but we have 2 different results, some of us would be like the prophets finding that we love to be in the fire of God's glory. However when Jesus was on earth, some loved being with him, while others wanted to be away from him. They responded as what would be normal for a human. But here those who were uncomfortable in his pressence don't see him vieled in humanity, but in all his glory. God's love is strong and always encourages us to be our best. Now if someone does not want to be their best they would flle uncomfortable with a bright powerful being encouraging them to be their best.

The issue with hell is the person's choice and them choosing the pleasure of contempt, creating for themselves a morbid heaven of enjoying to sulk about how unfair things are, etc. But as far as God is conserned, he is treating everyone the same. But what is heaven for some people become hell for others. But saved or lost they are in the best place possible, safe in the arms of Jesus.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

It makes no sense to raise people from the dead simply to torture them for a few days. What is the lesson?

The people who are lost are raised in order to demonstrate that they wouldn't change. Their characters are set in their ways. If given eternal life, they would continue their rebellion against God.

Another reason the wicked are raised is because God respects their right to know why they aren't among the saved. Even in human courts of law, people have a right to understand why they are condemned.

A third reason they are raised is in order to see the evidence and to agree that God is right in His judgment.

A fourth reason is that the entire universe will witness the fact that death is the result of rebellion against the Life-Giver.

Finally, a fifth reason is that sin and evil must be punished. The first death is not a punishment for sin, but rather it is the consequence of being a child of Adam and Eve. The punishment upon sin occurs only at the second death, which takes place after the Great White Throne Judgment.

Why the torture? What does anyone learn from torture?

[cardw]

I'd like to give an Amen to John and Richard's posts (and welcome back John)

I want to dissagree with you Cardw about the torture, that has been what we have read back into the text. Yes, there is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun, but what heaven and hell are is no more than 2 mindsets when seeing God in person. When Jesus was born the Shepherds and Wisemen were overcome by joy, and Herod was horrified and went even deeper into his insanity.

I have read that fire can mean a certain type of metaphorical cleansing. I have no problem with that.

I wasn't referring to a text, but to Ellen White when she states that some will burn for days.

I see no point in torturing people for days who are going to be dead for all eternity anyway. It really negates the idea of forgiveness. It re-establishes an eye for an eye mentality.

And what is learned by the saved from this display of horror for days? I know I would be pretty angry at god for doing this. I could not in good conscience do this to even the worst of my enemies. It is abhorrent to me.

And it is equally abhorrent to me that Christians find this to be perfectly reasonable. This establishes the idea that good people will do good and evil people will do evil, but religion makes good people do evil.

This slavish reliance on the Bible to define what we should think is idolatry in religious terms and insanity in secular ones.

[Guest]

Death is one thing, but why the torture? Of what value is burning people for a few days when they are going to be dead for eternity? It makes no sense to raise people from the dead simply to torture them for a few days. What is the lesson?

Where in the Bible does it say they will be tortured for a few days? My Bible says that they will be burned up. Completely. Mal 4:1. The Bible doesn't say how long it will take.

It doesn't even say whether it will hurt or not. Are you saying you believe Adventist doctrine, (burning for days) but you don't believe the Bible? How can that be?

If you're trying to refute the Bible, then you have to do that based only on what the Bible says. You can't refute the Bible based on what others believe about the Bible. That won't work. I think that's called a straw man.

[John317]

Why the torture? What does anyone learn from torture?

The entire universe will learn the consequences of sin & rebellion against God. They will see why God hates sin-- because it destroys and causes suffering and death. They will learn that Satan and the wicked are destroyed because of their own choices and that God is right.

Sin, or living outside of God's will, creates its own torture.

God made the universe so that our choices-- both good and bad-- have consequences. We reap what we sow.

I think you would agree that it wouldn't be just if a Hitler or a Stalin were to receive the same consequences in the Judgment as a physician who tried to save lives.

[Sonny]

The entire universe will learn the consequences of sin & rebellion against God.

It's the wages of sin that destroys, John. "The wages of sin is death". God is life - if God destroys then God assists sin.

Because God is love - because His agape love does not coerce, He has to "give them up" to their own deliberate & persistent choice. God's very presence holds our world together. The very atomic structure exists because of Him. If God fully pulls back nature will cease to function. The result?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

You see a God of cruel destruction does not reflect the God I know as seen from the cross. There Christ, as the Son of Man, was willing to give His life up for eternity so that His enemies might take His place. How can a God of such utter, selfless agape love do worse then Hitler? It doesn't make sense.

But, I know we will have to agree to disagree.

[John317]

It's the wages of sin that destroys, John. "The wages of sin is death". ...

Because God is love - because His agape love does not coerce, He has to "give them up" to their own deliberate & persistent choice...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

We're in fundamental agreement. I agree that God does not arbitrarily exclude them. I think the essential point is that those who are lost will be lost due to their own choices and not because God doesn't love them or want them. They will have made themselves so that they would be miserable in a pure, sinless universe. God's love won't force people to change their characters and to live in a way that wouldn't bring them happiness.

See 2 Peter 2: 9-17. At the end, the wicked "will utterly perish in their own corruption and will receive the wages of unrighteousness."

[Sonny]

Okay, we will leave it at that.

I see you now have a computer. What do you have now - laptop, desktop? My wife has a laptop; it's always giving trouble.

[John317]

I can hardly believe my good fortune to be back so soon and with such a wonderful computer-- a lap-top, called "Aspire." My previous computer, also a lap-top, gave out on me suddenly, and I have no idea what the problem was. I'd had it for about six years.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Death is one thing, but why the torture? Of what value is burning people for a few days when they are going to be dead for eternity? It makes no sense to raise people from the dead simply to torture them for a few days. What is the lesson?

Where in the Bible does it say they will be tortured for a few days? My Bible says that they will be burned up. Completely. Mal 4:1. The Bible doesn't say how long it will take.

It doesn't even say whether it will hurt or not. Are you saying you believe Adventist doctrine, (burning for days) but you don't believe the Bible? How can that be?

If you're trying to refute the Bible, then you have to do that based only on what the Bible says. You can't refute the Bible based on what others believe about the Bible. That won't work. I think that's called a straw man.

[Kevin H]

I wasn't referring to a text, but to Ellen White when she states that some will burn for days.

I see no point in torturing people for days who are going to be dead for all eternity anyway. It really negates the idea of forgiveness. It re-establishes an eye for an eye mentality.

And what is learned by the saved from this display of horror for days? I know I would be pretty angry at god for doing this. I could not in good conscience do this to even the worst of my enemies. It is abhorrent to me.

And it is equally abhorrent to me that Christians find this to be perfectly reasonable. This establishes the idea that good people will do good and evil people will do evil, but religion makes good people do evil.

This slavish reliance on the Bible to define what we should think is idolatry in religious terms and insanity in secular ones.

This is an easy one. Now first I should put in a note that there is the debate in the church over whether the fire is a shortened version of the Catholic/Baptist hell, or if it is the glory of God. One reason why I recommended the books by Heubech, Nies, and three Sanctuary and the Atonement chapters is that while they may not all belong to the same Adventist Subgroup, they all have a similar view of hell fire.

But basically I'd agree with the list of reasons that John 3 has listed, but would like to add more to it. God uses this to answer any questions they may have of life and even those who are saved still have a question. Our neighbors and relatives only had our poor witness, what if they could see Jesus in all his beauty and love in person.

God does not stop loving them. God is longing to welcome them into the city. But they want to get the city by conquest not by repentance. We get a foretaste of what hell when we look at the living at the second coming:

The sky is filled with the angels and Jesus and all the beauty of his coming. However everyone who is living, both the saved and the lost have a feeling of dread moment and all cry out "Who shall be able to stand?" and the angels stop their singing and there a moment of horrible silence. Then Jesus says [sings?] "My grace is sufficient for you!!!" Notice Jesus does not say "My grace is sufficient for you folk over here but not those over there" but he says to EVERYONE living at that moment "My grace is sufficient for YOU!" Yet we find 2 responses; those who think "That's right, this is Jesus, my friend!" and reply "This is our God and he will save us!" however others respond by thinking "No, he's lying! his grace is not sufficient for us, God is going to get us for our sins" and run to the rocks and caves and say fall on us and hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb.

John and Ellen White are having some fun with using the term "wrath of the lamb" do you expect to turn on CNN and hear "Lamb escapes from Central Park Zoo, terrorizes city!"? They are saying that they have no more need to fear Jesus than they have to fear a lamb, but they are so horrified that they run to the rocks and caves and end up being killed by the brightness of his coming.

So at the very end, God still loves them and offers grace. Now be careful to see what I am actually saying in this next sentence as it is easy for a sloppy reader to mis-read this, and there are people who have separated the opposites to believe in universalism at the end of time. The problem is that there are two parties involved. God is a universalist. However created beings are not. Some can be quite stubborn and allow pride to prevent them from making good choices.

We, all of us, have two attitudes inside ourselves. First we have our sinful nature, a disposition in us to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. Contempt. While I may modify this as I learn more right now I see 4 broad categories of how we apply our sinful nature: Generalized lessening of things; Setting ourselves us for failure (and when we fail there is a little feeling of triumph feeling "I knew things were out to get me); Giving up (negative actions, negative or crazy thinking, negative feelings, negative physical situations sometimes involuntary but will clear up when people stop giving up and become more positive.); and what Dr. William Glasser calls external control psychology, the way we try to manipulate others to meet our needs at the expense of their own. The 7 worst ways are Complaining, Criticizing, Blaming, Nagging, Threatening, Punishing, Rewarding to Control. Contempt does bring a pleasure. If you get a chance look up Eli Siegel's description of what he calls 1A pleasure and 2A pleasure and William Glasser calls the difference between happiness and pleasure. (in their own ways both men are basically describing the same thing). Have you ever met people who you could wonder if they could ever be happy if they were to be happy? They seem to relish the stories as to how unfair life has been to them. There is a morbid pleasure in the attitude of "poor me, poor me, pour me a drink"

The other issue is our deepest desire, to be like and with Jesus. To love the world as Jesus has loved it. To be fair to the world on an honest basis. To be fair to ourselves by being fair to the world around us and respecting our place in that world. To love our neighbor as ourselves.

These two attitudes effect everything we do. Our best is still tinged with a little selfishness, our sinful nature, and our worst is still tinged with our desire to love the world as Jesus has loved it. Hitler thought that he could make the world worth loving by killing of certain people.

At the end as they see Jesus in all his beauty, as they see the panoramic of the Great Controversy, as everything finally makes sense to them, Jesus still welcomes them. The Holy Spirit still works on their hearts to point them to Jesus. They want to come and ask for forgiveness. They want to join loved ones in the city. However they have developed characters of being unforgiving, thus they are unable to comprehend that God can actually forgive them and choose to feel inside that no matter how living and welcoming God appears right now, some moment he will seek his revenge and they want to hide. But God is so beautiful they want to come and run to him. They see loved ones inside the city who they long to be with. But they also remember how they have used loved ones for their own selfish purposes and how they still have that tendencies, and these loved ones are standing near that throne and the one on the throne knows their deepest thoughts and so they want to pull back. But Jesus is still their deepest desire. They want to come but they refuse to. They have forgiveness and healing offered to them, but choose the pleasure of contempt and going poor me poor me, I knew all was out to get me. They made a life of refusing the pleadings of the Holy Spirit and they continue to resist. Yet Jesus is still the one all together lovely and their deepest desire. This continues. It is a horrible position to be in, yet it still has the pleasure of contempt. Even thought it is a morbid pleasure, God would not take away from them the slightest thing that they find pleasure in. Eventually this situation of wanting to come to Jesus but refusing becomes so intense that they try to compromise, they bow down and confess that Jesus is Lord and that in the issues of the great controversy God is right. However they do not want to live in the type of world that is focused on self sacrificing love and righteousness by faith. They want a life of the pleasure of contempt and if they can't have this they choose to no longer exist.

The above paragraph IS the burning. Different people reach that state at different times. Thus some are consumed quickly others, who have done more intense fighting of the Holy Spirit, and who have enjoyed more the pleasure of contempt reach this point later on. This is why some suffer longer than others. And God is doing everything short of forcing their will to save them. I hope this helps.