Salvation Lost?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sheila7

It is NOT His will that you are addicted to porn. It is yours.

I fully disagree!!!

"Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I (my will) who do it, but sin that dwells in me." [Romans 7:20 NKJV]

Just because God has written the principle of love in your heart (mind) doesn't mean that you can simply "will" not to sin. In fact that's what Romans chapter 7 is all about.

Look at verse 22 -- For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man (the converted mind). 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (your converted mind), and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Notice you have 3 laws here:

1] The law of my mind (the converted mind where God has written His law).

2] The law of God

3] The law of sin

Here's the thing (and I can back it up with EGW) the law of God has no power, in and of itself. So just because someone has a desire not to watch porn doesn't mean that his will (the law of my mind) can overpower "the law of sin".

The love of self - our bent-to-self - what Paul calls "the law of sin" is stronger than the converted mind (the law of my mind). We need a 4th law. That's found in Romans 8

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life [that's the 4th law] in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Now the above is talking about what happened "in Christ". In Christ my humanity from Adam died the 2nd death and hence it was set free from the law of sin.

Verse 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh,

Again, the law has no power because of the weakness of the flesh....

God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

Notice that Christ, through "the law of the spirit" defeated "the law of sin", where? in the flesh...in our humanity.

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The only way to say "no" to porn is the moment temptation tempts your mind. What you can't do is try to resist it using your will power. You have to admit that you can't and allow the Spirit to have your nature. God will then defeat that temptation so that you don't fall into sin.

[Woody]

Quote:

I once read that if we cherish sin in out heart, God won't hear us. I struggled with sin and lost repeatedly, until I realized that I did not want to have the victory, I wanted the sin.

The victory came when I allowed Jesus to take the desire for the sin and replace it with a desire for Him.

Thanks for that testimony. How cool. May I assume then that you no longer sin? Or do you still enjoy sin?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

If he asks God, God will give him the power to obey!!!!!!!!!

I can personally attest that while this sounds very spiritual and cool. It simply is not true. At least from my personal experience it is not.

Maybe you misunderstand me. Maybe you don't.

I know I made a simplistic statement. I should said more.

I personally can attest to God answering prayer to overcome sin. Now that does not mean a one time shot and all is done.

Rarely does victory come from a single prayer alone. Victory comes by many prayers and by immersion in God's Word. The battle is constant and continuous. Maintaining such a connection with God will indeed yield victory.

No matter what happens a person must never give up on this process. Victory is a life long battle and depends on whether we give up or not. The key is to cling to God and Jesus Christ no matter what!

[Guest]

I personally can attest to God answering prayer to overcome sin. Now that does not mean a one time shot and all is done.

Rarely does victory come from a single prayer alone. Victory comes by many prayers and by immersion in God's Word. The battle is constant and continuous. Maintaining such a connection with God will indeed yield victory.

I agree.

[Woody]

Miz - So then you seem to be saying that it is not just God who does this. There seems to be some certain amount of pleading and work on your part. I haven't figured out the percentages yet ... so your statement keeps me confused. But it certainly is not just a prayer away.

[skyblue888]

I'm still struggling to explain righteouness by faith in practical and real terms, but I think I'm getting there. It really is a wonderful thing, it does not do away with the law, it creates a condition where I see and appreciate the law on a different level.

CluBv12

__________________

Club, we cannot explain it. If we try to explain it, we will die before that time.

"You cannot explain this faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into your life. Clothed with the righteousness of Christ and not your own righteousness, you will not depend upon what you can do or what you will do," for "Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." F.W.65,66

And it is not righteousness by praying but by faith. "Righteousness is obedience to the law. The only way to attain to righteousness (victory over sin) is through faith. By faith the sinner can bring to God the merits of Christ." F.W.101.

With the simple faith of a little child we are to lay hold upon the merits of Christ and bring them to God. Then God accepts us, forgives us, and justifies us and the pardoned soul may go on from grace to grace and from victory to victory.

This is our lifebusiness, daily applying to the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. It is not something we can explain and yet it is the most practical thing we can do in order to live the Christian life for then the righteousness of Christ is imputed and imparted to us and it accomplishes everything.

This message is not a private opinion. It is light shining from the Throne of God.

sky

[ClubV12]

"Where do you draw the line V12? Or is there no line. Can you simply ask God to help you resist all sin and then it is done." Good question Woody, I don't have an answer, like I said, I'm still "working" out this whole righteouness by faith thing.

No way it's once and your done! It's like a living breathing thing, I wish it was more like breathing so I could live it every moment. But, well, yeah, sometimes I make bad choices. But what else can I do but lean on Him? Where else can I go? What else is left after you've seen and known Jesus? Seriously, He IS your only hope, I have no choice but to pick myself up and keep moving forward.

I believe there is a personal factor involved, a personal choice, a decided effort we need to put forth. Some call that "works". I don't know WHAT to call it! I just know I won't do it without specifically bringing it to Him, identifying it and asking for help on it.

One thing ALWAYS remains perfectly clear though. No matter what I do, no matter what state of "perfection" I achieve, it is STILL filthy rags and I remain unworthy of eternal life. But Jesus WILL cover me! Knowing it is impossible to achieve perfection, never the less, it remains my goal! Yup, it's a conundrum.

It really is "just a prayer away", but we must choose to pray and frankly, sometimes we don't want to. Sad, but true.

[Guest]

Mostly I agree that immersion in God's Word brings victory.

Psa 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through your truth: your word is truth.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[ClubV12]

"...we cannot explain it. If we try to explain it, we will die before that time."

Ha Ha, well put, it is at once as simple as ABC and as complex as wheels within wheels. I do think it is a concept we will be studying for a lifetime and beyond. I try, but words fail me.

[miz3]

Miz - So then you seem to be saying that it is not just God who does this. There seems to be some certain amount of pleading and work on your part. I haven't figured out the percentages yet ... so your statement keeps me confused. But it certainly is not just a prayer away.

The Bible says that we are to seek God with ALL OF OUR HEART! I guess that means we are give 100% of ourselves to this work of seeking God through prayer and Bible study.

Is that the percentage your asking about?

I do know that God in the Bible tells us to come to Him and He will give us Rest! That means we are to continuously and constantly come to Him and lay our whole being at His feet. We are to plead for mercy and to plead for His promised help. We are to confess that we are totally helpless without Him. We are plead that if God does not help we have no where else to go but to go to hell. We are to remind God of His marvelous promises to us concerning mercy, help, and victory (that is why we read the Scripture to know about God and His promises).

When we talk about Victory we are not talking just about "victory over one single sin". We are talking about total Victory over all sin. That means getting at the "root" of all our sin. Such "root" destroying and creating a new Spiritual "root" takes more than one simple prayer. Why that is so, I don't know, it just is. Why God made it that way, the Bible does not say. The Bible does say we are to continually and constantly seek God with all of our being and we are to study the Scriptures with all of our being (scripture studying is part of seeking God as is prayer).

We do this only because God said so!

As long as we live on this earth this continual and constant seeking of God will be our lot. Sorry none of us are exempt from this rule.

[Sonny]

Here's the thing (and I can back it up with EGW) the law of God has no power, in and of itself. So just because someone has a desire not to watch porn doesn't mean that his will (the law of my mind) can overpower "the law of sin".

EGW (back up)

Many are inquiring, "How am I to make the surrender of myself to God?" You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections. The knowledge of your broken promises and forfeited pledges weakens your confidence in your own sincerity, and causes you to feel that God cannot accept you; but you need not despair. What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. You cannot change your heart, you cannot of yourself give to God its affections; but you can choose to serve Him. You can give Him your will; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ.... (SC 47)

[Kevin H]

I'm still struggling to explain righteouness by faith in practical and real terms, but I think I'm getting there. It really is a wonderful thing, it does not do away with the law, it creates a condition where I see and appreciate the law on a different level.

Why struggle, get a hold of the wonderful book by Paul Heubech called "Make it Simple" I love that book. There was also a book by Dr. Richard Nies, I can't think of the name of it but it is also a very powerful book putting Righteousness by Faith in simple terms. Of course both men held the correct view of hell fire. Also, I'd again like to put in a plug for the 3 chapters in "Sanctuary and the Atonement" "The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2 and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White." Sadly, as with most of the good books, they are out of print, but should be able to find them on say Leaves of Autum or in Adventist libaries or interlibarary loan from Adventist Colleges. I'll see if I can get the name of Richard Nies' book. I think that you will really find them useful and enjoyable.

Also check out some of the new understandings of Paul, start out with Jim Fleming's "Acts: New Discoveries of the Early Church" and "Lest we forget: A history of anti-jewishness and the Church" and in the notebook for "Acts" you will find a wonderful bibliography by leading Sundaykeeping scholars who are taking a new look at God's law and some who even believe that God expects Jewish converts to continue to keep the Sabbath and that the church needs to accomidate for Seventh-day Sabbath keepers. As well as Richard Nies "Is the End of the Wicked a Barbecue" and actually he goes into better detail of hell fire in his series "Spiritual Fitness"

[skyblue888]

Our Father in Heaven has spoken clearly to us. Are we listening?

He has told us that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to Him in our behalf. "The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

He has told us this in so many ways:

"Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." F.W.106.

"Habitually dwelling upon Christ and His all-sufficient merits increases faith, quickens the power of spiritual discernment, strengthens the desire to be like Him and brings an earnestness into prayer that makes it efficacious." Gospel Worker, p.66.

If we were to accept these messages from the throne of God with the simple faith of a little child, do you think we would come here every day to ask ourselves what it is we must do in order to be saved?

I think for the most part many of us cherish the idea that truth is not absolute.

Either we believe that the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifce are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf in order to receive all the blessings of the Covenant of grace or we don't. If we do believe from the heart that the merits of Christ are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf in order to receive forgiviness and righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, we are blessed indeed.

One day the Lord may ask you and me, What did you do with the merits of Christ? Did you claim them? Why did you not believe Me when I told you that the merits of My Son were sufficient to plead before Me in your behalf?

sky

[Sonny]

Forget all that, read this!

[Kevin H]

The Security of Salvation by Dr. Richard Nies

[skyblue888]

Forget all that, read this!

Forget this and read the first two booklets of www.hidden-treasures.ca

sky :)

[Sonny]

If you don't won't to branch off into legalism read Jack. Here is his website:

Study Materials by E.H. “Jack” Sequeira

[Kevin H]

Forget all that, read this!

Why should he forget my list? Is there anything that says that he can not read both and evaluate the evidence? I have to admit I have not been able to make sense out of anything I've heard Sequeira write or speak, I personally can't make heads or tails out of his views, I don't know if he is right or wrong because I personally am unable to understand him. But I understand and love Hubech and Nies, now the chapters in Sanctuary and the Atonemnt was written in a more scholarly way but still understandable, and Fleming always makes things clear.

Now I do remember hearing Squeira say that those who hold my understanding of hell are speaking nonsense, so that prejudice me against him, but again I've read a few of his books, I've listened to him speak both in person and on tape, read both Webber's chapter on him and his response to Weber and I'm still baffeled. But since I can't understand him I can't make any comments pro nor against him. So may I invite people to read this post that Sonny listed but also look up the sources I listed. Look at the evidence from all sides. It does not hurt. God knows better than to give all the truth to one person. Sonny loves what Squeira has sto say so let's respect this (and I admire him for being able to do what I've tried and tried to do many times but has been unable to do, make sense of Squeira, I find that very impressive)

I'm editing seeing that Sky has also had a link. God is working with us and we like David can't all wear Saul's armor, we need to look at these and evaluate the evidence but realize that we can't wear sombody else's armor. I have shared what I found useful and like Heubeck titled his book "Make it Simple" I find it very clear and simple. I am willing to listen to any criticizisms or comments of the information I've recommended. Sonny has shared what he has found useful and Sky has also shared. Instead of "Forget that read this" Let's read all of it. I've goine through Soney's recommendation once, I'll re-read it and I will read what Sky has recommended as well and I hope you read my recommendations.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Forget all that, read this!

Why should he forget my list?

"You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free"

Jack is 100% on the gospel....Why waste your time with other authors?

[skyblue888]

"...we cannot explain it. If we try to explain it, we will die before that time."

Ha Ha, well put, it is at once as simple as ABC and as complex as wheels within wheels. I do think it is a concept we will be studying for a lifetime and beyond. I try, but words fail me.

ClubV12, please, you are putting your own constructions upon the inspired word. "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." F.W.64.

The Lord did not say that it was complex as wheels within wheels but just as simple as ABC. What is complex as wheels within wheels is how God takes care of the whole universe in every intricate details for He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hand.

sky

[ClubV12]

You know,,, I read a LOT of stuff and studied hard to grasp this righteousness by faith concept. It still eluded me. Sky did her best to help me understand, I still didn't get it. It was like it was right on the tip of my tongue, but not quite there.

I've shared this testimony before and will do so again. I didn't get it until out of frustration and really feeling my need for a closer walk with Him, I put down the books. I was sitting in a chair in my backyard, looking at the trees swaying softly in the breeze. Friday night, right at sundown. I just started thinking how lovely nature is, how wonderful God is and then hit me. I mean it HIT me!!!! I got it!!! It was the most amazing thing, I felt totally accepted by Christ like I had never felt before, it was a really special moment.

I suspect, righteouness by faith is one of those things you have to experience personally for it to sink in. Now I'm not all about "feelings" and such, but, I gotta say, I sure "felt" it that night. A peace I so desperately needed, offered at the perfect time. When I was still and listening, like whisper that grew into something big.

And you can loose it just as quickly too! It's the kind of thing you need to dwell on a lot, it gets lost in the shuffle of a busy life. It's easy to confuse the balance of work and faith, oh wait, there is no balance, it's only faith. And back and forth the struggle goes... It is a thing of beauty, like a delicate flower, it must be treated with love at all times.

[skyblue888]

Club, read this very carefully:

"'I want,' says one, 'to reason out this matter.' (the matter of salvation) Well, reason it out if you can. 'The wind bloweth where it listeth,' and you hear the sound thereof, but you cannot explain it. And no more can you explain the things of God upon the human heart. You cannot explain this faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into your life." F.W.65,66.

sky

[skyblue888]

"Sky did HER best to help me understand!"

ClubV12

______________

Why is everybody here thinking that I am a female!!!! hehehe

sky

[Kevin H]

"You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free"

Jack is 100% on the gospel....Why waste your time with other authors?

Now you are scareing me... Only Jesus Christ himself was 100% gospel, once you get to the disciples you start getting versions of the gospel and why we have 4 gospels and why God has given us different writers.

Even in the Old Testament there was the religion of Yahwehism which had 2 denominations, the priesthood of Aaron and the Priesthood of Moses, one stronger in the north but also had southern versions and one stronger in the south but had northern versions. There are differences and disagrements between the two. Yet writings from both views became our Bible. Infact the Old Testametn prior to the exile had 3 schools that did not always agree: The Prophtes, the Priests and the Royal party. Yet despite their dissagreements, they all became our Bible.

[ClubV12]

Oops, I KNOW you are a guy, sorry about that.

But that name,, theres something feminine about it!

"Well, reason it out if you can."

Thats my point, I couldn't reason it out. It was to "complex", oh yes, I understand it's as simple as ABC. I just needed to be in the right place at the right time to "get it". Maybe it's easier for other people? I'm just glad I got a glimpse of it, however it happened!