Salvation Lost?

[ClubV12]

I'm thinking the thief on the cross didn't have a "deep" understanding of all this "faith" talk. He just accepted the plain and simple words of Jesus.

It's amazing how we can take such simplicity and mangle it into a pretzel of words. :)

[Sonny]

Paul is writing to the saints at Ephesus who "have been saved"

Hey, at least you are trying to defend what you believe, but you are contextually in error. Here's why:

Eph 2:4 But because of his great (agape) love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace (not faith) you have been saved!

Did you get that phrase? "Even when we were dead in transgressions"!!! When we were God's enemies (see Romans 5:8) God saved us "in Christ Jesus". When we were spiritually dead in sins and trespasses, God agaped us anyway and saved us in the doing & dying of Christ. This is the good news of salvation. This is the third angel's message that must be preached to the whole world and then the end will come.

[Sonny]

I'm thinking the thief on the cross didn't have a "deep" understanding of all this "faith" talk.

True, but neither did he have pride in his law keeping.

The gospel is a call to sinners, not the proud who think that they can contribute to what Christ has already done.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

No, what you have described above should be called "faith in justification." It is different from justification BY or THROUGH faith.

Can you not see the difference?

Who justified you? God, in Christ Jesus. In Christ you stand just before God's law. That's justification. When you accept this justification you accept it through belief...faith. Your faith is towards Christ and His justification of you. It's justification accepted through faith or justification by faith.

[Sonny]

But I do not have faith in having already been pre-justified.

Sorry, then your faith is meaningless. God has already justified YOU in Christ 2000 years ago. His death was your death, His obedience yours, His resurrection yours. If not then Christ must die again and again every time someone accepts what He has done! Read Hebrews 9:25-26

[Sonny]

Then there is yet another work to be accomplished, and this is of a progressive nature.

In other words santification - the work of lifetime.

A better word would be the cooperation of a lifetime because we can't work our way into heaven. We already stand justified, sanctified and glorified in Christ. See 1 Cor 1:30

Because you don't understand the gospel you have made these the means of of your salvation instead of what is experienced.

It is because of him [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become [past tense] for us wisdom from God--that is, our justification and sanctification and redemption (glorification). 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

But I do not have faith in having already been pre-justified.

Sorry, then your faith is meaningless. God has already justified YOU in Christ 2000 years ago. His death was your death, His obedience yours, His resurrection yours. If not then Christ must die again and again every time someone accepts what He has done! Read Hebrews 9:25-26

Good luck with your witnessing through insulting.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I'm thinking the thief on the cross didn't have a "deep" understanding of all this "faith" talk.

True, but neither did he have pride in his law keeping.

The gospel is a call to sinners, not the proud who think that they can contribute to what Christ has already done.

True --

And so when John says that anyone who does not keep the Commandments and yet claims to know Christ is "lying" - in 1John 2 -- John is neither "Adding to what Jesus has done" nor is he "expressing pride".

in Christ,

Bob

[Sonny]

Good luck with your witnessing through insulting.

The gospel insults the self-righteous. That's why Christ said I didn't come to call the righteous (i.e., the self-righteous), but sinners. And He told the Pharisees that the harlots go before you to the kingdom of God.

Do you know what justification accepted by faith does? It slams your glory...your goodness...your attempts at salvation in the dust.

Look that up....Ellen White said it!

[Sonny]

And so when John says that anyone who does not keep the Commandments and yet claims to know Christ is "lying" - in 1John 2 -- John is neither "Adding to what Jesus has done" nor is he "expressing pride".

I think you misunderstand what John is stating. Keeping the commandments is living Christ' life of unselfish interest. Jesus said, "I have kept my father's commandments".

It's not routinely keeping the letter of the law and then exclaiming I am a commandment keeper.

[BobRyan]

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law"

Which is true since the Jer 31:33 Law of God is "written on the heart" (Heb 8) under the Jer 31 New Covenant. Which is the "ONE Gospel" (Gal 1:6-11) of all time according to Paul. Yep! it goes back all the way to Gen 3!

Paul even quotes the 6th commandment in Eph 6:1-4 and commands us to keep it saying "this is the FIRST commandment with a promise".

James 2 also quotes the commandments saying "He who is guilty of one is guilty of all".

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

Are also reference in James 2 - but so also are the ten Commandments of Ex 20.

Turns out - the Bible has 66 books!

in Christ,

Bob

[cheddar]

New covenant commandments supersede any found in the old covenant.

People who insist on keeping the ten commandments and being under the old covenant can't pick and choose - they need to do the whole thing.

That means offering up animal sacrifice, growing a beard and eating kosher food.

Good luck with that animal sacrifice, I hope the humane society doesn't find out - look what happened to Mike Vick.

[ClubV12]

cheddar, your confusing the moral vs the ceremonial law. For a better understanding of the two I'd recommend some research on what Ellen White had to say on the subject.

But if you feel up to it, you could use the bible and the bible alone to figure it out and ignore everyone and everything else. Myself, I like to consult with the brethren and the Lords messenger to make sure I get the best possible understanding of Gods word.

[karl]

2 Kings 17:13

Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying , Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.

Nehemiah 1:9

But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.

Psalm 119:115

Depart from me, ye evildoers : for I will keep the commandments of my God.

Proverbs 3:1

My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

Daniel 9:4

And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession , and said , O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[cheddar]

cheddar, your confusing the moral vs the ceremonial law. For a better understanding of the two I'd recommend some research on what Ellen White had to say on the subject.

But if you feel up to it, you could use the bible and the bible alone to figure it out and ignore everyone and everything else. Myself, I like to consult with the brethren and the Lords messenger to make sure I get the best possible understanding of Gods word.

Was Jesus confused on the Law? He wasn't but you are.

He said that God's agape love was the foundation of the entire law.

Explain how we 'do' love? Agape love is something which God 'does' to us. Jones and Waggoner tried to teach Ellen White but she still clung to many old covenant ideas.

[ClubV12]

See, this is why you need good sources and counsel to arrive at a balanced understaning of the "law" and "faith". While you can "get it" from the bible alone, frankly, for most of us, we need help in understanding what we are reading.

Like the Ethiopian did, he read and read and read, but he couldn't quite grasp it. So, the Lord sent him some help in Phillip!

The Lord has also provided us help for today, in Ellen White. Trust Him cheddar, He has provided another source to help you understand the word. Don't reject it.

[BobRyan]

New covenant commandments supersede any found in the old covenant.

People who insist on keeping the ten commandments and being under the old covenant can't pick and choose - they need to do the whole thing.

That means offering up animal sacrifice, growing a beard and eating kosher food.

Good luck with that animal sacrifice, I hope the humane society doesn't find out - look what happened to Mike Vick.

Hint - the old covenant was made with Adam and Eve in Eden before the fall - "Obey and Live".

They chose rebellion.

The New Covenant is given in Gen 3 - the protevangelin, the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-11.

ALL the Heb 11 saints of the OT were saved under the "ONE Gospel" of the New Covenant.

Hev 4 states clearly "the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to them also"

Your slice and dice of the Bible into two gospels is rejected by Paul.

The Bible has 66 books. No merely the 23 of the post-cross section of the NT.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Was Jesus confused on the Law? He wasn't but you are.

He said that God's agape love was the foundation of the entire law.

Explain how we 'do' love? Agape love is something which God 'does' to us. Jones and Waggoner tried to teach Ellen White but she still clung to many old covenant ideas.

[Gerr]

New covenant commandments supersede any found in the old covenant.

People who insist on keeping the ten commandments and being under the old covenant can't pick and choose - they need to do the whole thing.

That means offering up animal sacrifice, growing a beard and eating kosher food.

Good luck with that animal sacrifice, I hope the humane society doesn't find out - look what happened to Mike Vick.

ESV | Dt 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone.

ESV | Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

ESV | Ps 105:9 the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac, 10 which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,

[Sonny]

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

[Sonny]

cheddar, your confusing the moral vs the ceremonial law.

This issue was taken care of in 1888!

"I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments."

[ClubV12]

Obvioulsy those aspects of the ceremonial law pointing to Christs first coming were done away with.

[miz3]

Quote:

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith

karl quoted the above texts to show that faith came first and justification came second.

That is not what these texts are saying.

If we are justified but do not have faith (trust, belief) in what God has already accomplished then our Justification is Dead because we then must mistrust, unbelief, and have no faith in what God has done.

These texts you cite are not about sequence. They correctly link Justification with Faith but say nothing about sequence. Sequence comes from Romans chapter 5 as Sonny has already pointed out to you.

Justification first! Faith second!

Either you have "faith" in Jesus Christ's finished work or you REJECT (distrust, unbelief, lack faith) in Jesus Christ's finished work.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

cheddar, your confusing the moral vs the ceremonial law.

This issue was taken care of in 1888!

"I am asked concerning the law in Galatians. What law is the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ? I answer: Both the ceremonial and the moral code of ten commandments."

That is true - however it is more specifically the moral law because the world is not held guilty by the ceremonial law as if failing to celebrate the feast of first fruits today is a sin for us gentiles. (And as we can see from Heb 10 and Romans 14 -- not celebrating the feast of first fruits is also not a sin for Jews).

The moral law is specifically the issue in both Romans 3 and Gal 3. This is the law that still to this very day authorotatively declares all mankind to be lost sinners in need of a Savior. It is the law that tells us that we will all go to hell - (the lake of fire in Rev 20) if we reject the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith

karl quoted the above texts to show that faith came first and justification came second.

Karl is correct. Romans 10 also points this out explicitly.

(hint: this is why SDAs are not Calvinist)

in Christ,

Bob