Salvation Lost?

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This reliance on written authority creates monsters.

John Calvin is lionized by Ellen White as one of the great Protestant Reformers responsible for leading Christianity on the right path.

Yes, you've made this claim many times on this forum. Ellen White also "lionized" Martin Luther, but the fact that she speaks of those men in positive ways doesn't mean she accepted as good everything they said or did. They both made great errors, but then do did King David and Moses, etc.

True! It is an encouragement to me that with my faults that I, too, should not let that stop me from doing what I can to join God's work.

[phkrause]

True! It is an encouragement to me that with my faults that I, too, should not let that stop me from doing what I can to join God's work.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

So you're still using a straw man argument. Refute the Bible with what's in the Bible. People have let you get away with saying things about the Bible that are not in the Bible for a long time.

You have to be more specific.

[Kevin H]

Bluesky: The reason why the lost are lost is on the side of the person who is lost. They will not repent at the end. Now if one of them were to repent at the end of course God is going to welcome them. Hell fire is seeing God in all his glory and brightness and love. Jesus is the focus of heaven and hell.

[John317]

I agree they won't repent at the end, after the end of human probation, and certainly not after the one thousand years. The reason is that people will have made up their minds by that time and their characters won't change. What many people don't take into account is that the only reason anyone loves truth and wants to repent is due to the work of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will no longer be trying to draw people to God after the close of probation. That's why it's so important to repent and accept God's offer of salvation NOW, because the offer will not always be there. If we resist, we can easily come to the point where we won't even desire salvation.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You have to be more specific.

What a dodge. You know exactly what I'm saying, because I just spelled it out for you in my last post. Until you can be honest with yourself, all this dialogging back and forth is just a waste of everybody's time, including yours.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This reliance on written authority creates monsters.

John Calvin is lionized by Ellen White as one of the great Protestant Reformers responsible for leading Christianity on the right path.

Yes, you've made this claim many times on this forum. Ellen White also "lionized" Martin Luther, but the fact that she speaks of those men in positive ways doesn't mean she accepted as good everything they said or did. They both made great errors, but then do did King David and Moses, etc.

You would think that she would address the horrors that both of these men practiced. I can't imagine either of them of ever having a loving spirit.

You need to look up the descriptions of how torture was inflicted. I won't post the specifics because it is so horrible that it is unbelievable that people could carry out these practices in the name of a loving god.

King David and Moses were both murders, just like their god. God ordered the murder of innocent women and children in the OT. And David was punished by having other people killed. How is that justice?

What it is is simply a justification for David to remain on the throne and not be punished like the law said. He was given that because he was king. If anyone else had done what he did they would have been put to death.

On the one hand you demand absolute Justice for the so called wicked and then on the other David, Luther, and Calvin can do some of the most horrible deeds and be forgiven. And we are required to accept that they were vessels for the truth. Oh how wonderful that we have such a merciful god that he uses the most depraved humans on the planet to spread the truth. That is not justice. That is insanity.

[John317]

I know the bible very well. I can argue both sides of many different views quite easily.

As the Bible itself teaches, the Devil also studies the Bible and no doubt knows it by memory. He also misquotes it and quotes it out of context.

I think the problem you have with the Bible is that you apparently know something about it intellectually, yet you haven't allowed it to get inside you and cause you to have firm convictions about what it teaches. That is like someone saying they know all about apples because they've studied them and held them in their hands. Yet they have never really eaten one. So how much would they really know? Wouldn't it only be an intellectual, abstract knowledge?

I could be wrong but that is how it seems to me as I read your posts.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You aren't going to find much that is definitive if you take the whole Bible in consideration. ...

The Bible is actually its own best interpreter if you allow it to interpret itself. You will see this clearly by studying a Topical Bible-- the kind where the verses are arranged according to subject or theme.

[John317]

I think your error is in judging those men as if they lived today in our modern society. Would you want to be judged by the values and standards of people living 3000 years from now? Or would you like to be judged by the values and standards of your own time and culture?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I know the bible very well. I can argue both sides of many different views quite easily.

As the Bible itself teaches, the Devil also studies the Bible and no doubt knows it by memory. He also misquotes it and quotes it out of context.

I think the problem you have with the Bible is that you apparently know something about it intellectually, yet you haven't allowed it to get inside you and cause you to have firm convictions about what it teaches.

[John317]

...

On the one hand you demand absolute Justice for the so called wicked and then on the other David, Luther, and Calvin can do some of the most horrible deeds and be forgiven. And we are required to accept that they were vessels for the truth. Oh how wonderful that we have such a merciful god that he uses the most depraved humans on the planet to spread the truth. That is not justice. That is insanity.

Saul of Tarsus was also a murderer, of course. But he repented of those acts and became a changed man.

God doesn't require that people be perfect before He uses them in His service. If He did, He wouldn't ever be able to use anyone.

David, Luther, and Calvin were not the most depraved humans on the planet. You need to study your history some more.

Take the entire life of a person into account, not only the mistakes and the sins. Consider their repentence and their growth, as well as their contributions towards truth.

I know full well the shortcomings of Luther and Calvin, but they are still great men in my thinking, particularly Luther. Virtually all historians agree that Luther is one of the greatest and most influential men in the last 1000 years.

[cardw]

I think your error is in judging those men as if they lived today in our modern society. Would you want to be judged by the values and standards of people living 3000 years from now? Or would you like to be judged by the values and standards of your own time and culture?

I want to know how to live the best life I can. If I make a mistake it's because of ignorance and pride. If I set aside my pride and seek what is true then that seems to work. Judgment is only useful for learning from the mistakes of others. The judgment that occurs in Christianity tends to be for the application of punishment. I think that is a waste of time and energy. It doesn't work anyway. Sure, we need to set some boundaries with people who harm others and set up reasonable consequences, but that doesn't require punishment.

The Bible doesn't provide the highest value system. I know that from personal experience and from observation and reasoning. That's all any of us have.

I find trying to make what the Bible says fit with reality a process that tends to produce nonsense. It's as simple as that. I don't let the bible determine my reality because I observe how people behave who do.

[cardw]

David, Luther, and Calvin were not the most depraved humans on the planet. You need to study your history some more.

You need to quit whitewashing your religious history.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

David, Luther, and Calvin were not the most depraved humans on the planet. You need to study your history some more.

You need to quit whitewashing your religious history.

I really doubt if there's a single historian who would agree with you that any of those three men you named are "the most depraved humans on the planet." In all due respect, anyone who would make this claim merely shows his prejudces and ignorance.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

David, Luther, and Calvin were not the most depraved humans on the planet. You need to study your history some more.

You need to quit whitewashing your religious history.

Show the "whitewash." Back up your claim with documentation.

By the way, where do you get all your "dirt" on David? From the Bible, right? So where's the whitewash? God doesn't hide the dirt against His people. He lays it all out for the whole universe to see.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You need to quit whitewashing your religious history.

I really doubt if there's a single historian who would agree with you that any of those three men you named are "the most depraved humans on the planet." In all due respect, anyone who would make this claim merely shows his prejudces and ignorance.

[ClubV12]

Oh boy,,, here we go again with the Luther/Hitler comparison.

Really, so much for logic and reason, thats just sick.

[cardw]

Oh boy,,, here we go again with the Luther/Hitler comparison.

Really, so much for logic and reason, thats just sick.

[ClubV12]

Whewwww,,,, earth to Rich, let it go man, your WAY out there.

Godwins law is kickin' into high gear now!

The law:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 100%."

First guy to use the "law" looses!

[cardw]

Whewwww,,,, earth to Rich, let it go man, your WAY out there.

Godwins law is kickin' into high gear now!

Your lack of compassion for the suffering inflicted by these men is why I speak out so strongly against Christianity. It is this mentality that continues to dehumanize people simply for what they don't believe.

Thank you for providing further evidence of the complete vapid emptiness of your belief system.

All you have left is being a bully since you have no capability of actually forming a defense.

[skyblue888]

Personally, I question your sources, Card.

Sad to say, it does make me feel sick too that you are here only to make God look like a tyran on account of your misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Scriptures. Some day you will see, too late, how wrong you have been and you will bow down to acknowledge that there is no unrighteousness in the God of the Bible. Satan himself will bow down and acknowledge this.

sky

[cardw]

Personally, I question your sources, Card.

Sad to say, it does make me feel sick too that you are here only to make God look like a tyran on account of your misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Scriptures. Some day you will see, too late, how wrong you have been and you will bow down to acknowledge that there is no unrighteousness in the God of the Bible. Satan himself will bow down and acknowledge this.

I can give you multiple sources for the same thing. There is no shortage of documentation.

But there you go again proving my point.

The basis for your belief system eventually boils down to fear and threats of death.

[Kevin H]

But you keep twisting and reading torture into everything. Jesus treats the lost the same way he treats the saved, and you call it torture. Yes, we see problems in the Bible, but first of all, we read problems in medical books. Medical books are full of horrible discriptions and pictures, but they are given in the context of the treatment and cure. Same with the Bible, it points out human problems in the light of the solution.

Also, some of the other things we need to read in context. You talk about the people destroyed in the Old Testament. I believe that you have in mind the conquest under Joshua and the tradition (not the facts, but the popular tradition) that he came and just mowed down the population.

Now, the editor of the history that has been handed down to us does put more emphesses on the warfare. The Seventh-day Adventist Bible commentary hints that it was probably edited by Jeremiah, or someone close to Jeremiah, who was looking for lessons in history for people who were dealing with the riseing of Babylon and facing the threat of Babylon. There are verses here and there, and linguistics in names that is not emphessised but which modify the story; and archaeology supports this fact.

In Canaan you had the major walled cities, inside the walled cities you had the kings of these city states, the priests, the army and the aristricrats. First of all their religion thought they had to help Baal out by uniting their life forces, this included making clothing of mixed materials, mix together certan combinations of foods, and unite their bodies where they had sex with men, women, children and animals. These children were raised in ritualistic abuse. I work as a Psychiatric nurse. The most ill patients I've worked with are those who have been raised in ritualistic abuse. So these were familys where they thought they were helping their gods by abusing their little children.

Then you had the daughters of the city, the common people who lived outside of the walls. These were people who were oppressed by those in the walled cities and were basically slaves.

When the Hebrews came in, they destroyed the walled cities, but liberated the daughters of these cities and most of the common people ended up joining with the Hebrews and converting to Yahwehism. There was more evangelism going on than killing going on. Do you call Eisenhower's men invading consentration camps and liberating the prisoners torcturers of the Nazis? What is the difference? This is the way you read scripture. Oh you mention the women and children. Sometimes God has to do the best with what he has and what point of history it is. There are women and children in some slum areas who are so involved with parents involved with the drug trades and gang actvity. It is hard to know if there is a way to reach them. Dealing with humans the Hebrews did what appeared to be the best in that situation. And just because they died there does not necessarlarly mean that they are going to be lost.

We also see how some people are cursed and turned it into a blessing (interesting, most, if not all, the curses in the Deuteronomic History end up being collected on to one man, Jeremiah, the prophet who may have edited the Deuteronomic History. And we read stories as to how people turn God's blessings into curses. Gideon was blessed by God, but normally should have just chased the people out of the country. Instead he went beyond what was decient and did become a tyrant, and while the book of Judges has different saveours, there is one anti-saveour, a foretaste of the anti-christ: Gideon's son Abimelech. God is trying to teach us problems that can develope as people take God's blessing for victory and goes beyond God's love and how we can turn ourselves into tyrants.

You also mentioned a God who requires blood. The blood means life. God gives us life. If we choose to sepperate from the only sourse of life, what other choice is there? The passion of Christ was where God, the entire trinity, took the results of our sins upon themselves so that it killed Jesus instead of us. Jesus died because he allowed our sins to sepperate him from the Father and the Holy Spirit who he wanted to be with. The Father and the Holy Spirit wanted to be with Jesus. Just as the sinner's deepest desire is to be like and with Jesus, and they want to come but refuse to. So Jesus wanted to go to his Father and the Holy Spirit but also refused to because of, not the same reasons I listed above for why the sinner refuses, but Jesus refused out of love for us. On the other hand, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit wanted to be with Jesus, but they refused to and allowed our sins to sepperate them from Jesus. All three members went though the horrors of hell, and being infinite they could suffer an infinite amount. It was the pain of allowing themselves to be sepperated from each other that they all suffered. It is the pain of being sepperated from God that is so horrible to the sinner. Not some sort of barbecue where God does some kind of divine spanking by roasting and toasting folks. They are welcomed to come and enjoy heaven, but they refuse to. God treats them the same way he treats Abraham, Peter and Paul. But they choose to sepperate and reject what God has to offer. The cross was NOT God the father venting out his wrath on Jesus so that he can grudgingly forgive us. All three went through the expirence of the sinner at the end of time. As they want to be with God but refuse to, so Jesus wanted to be with the Father and Spirit but refused to, and the Father and Spirit wanted to be with Jesus but they refused to. All three were crushed under the weight of sin.

You also mentioned a

[cardw]

But you keep twisting and reading torture into everything. Jesus treats the lost the same way he treats the saved, and you call it torture. Yes, we see problems in the Bible, but first of all, we read problems in medical books. Medical books are full of horrible discriptions and pictures, but they are given in the context of the treatment and cure. Same with the Bible, it points out human problems in the light of the solution.

Kevin,

I have to give you credit for creativity. And you are certainly free to interpret the Bible any way you please, but this is not how Martin Luther, Calvin, and Wesley interpreted the Bible. It also not how the majority of Christians interpret the Bible.

I agree that these are all the works of men. And because of this I find no evidence that the bible is a product of divinity. It makes no sense to try and make it so.

So I don't really know how to respond to your view other than to say good luck.

[Sheila7]

Hello DblEspresso. Are you still here? You opened this thread for a very good reason. You asked for help.

I pray you have received the answers needed to help put your addiction to rest. Porn, historically has taken some men and women to the darkest side of evil. You are on Satan's ground, opening yourself to his deceptions. The illusion that you are enjoying is pure deception.

I for one will post to you this last time with a prayer in my heart for you always to seek the Lord with all of your heart and mind continually as He promises to set you free. "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, 'If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'"

(John 8:31&32)NKJ version.

God Bless you.

Yours in Christ's love and grace.

Sheila7