Salvation Lost?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Why the torture? What does anyone learn from torture?

The entire universe will learn the consequences of sin & rebellion against God. They will see why God hates sin-- because it destroys and causes suffering and death. They will learn that Satan and the wicked are destroyed because of their own choices and that God is right.

[Guest]

You know that Ellen White says that some of the wicked will burn for days. When we combine the two different posts you are basically admitting that Ellen White refutes the Bible. Because, in this case, the "other people" is Ellen White.

This really exposes your lack of candor.

Not true at all. I believe Ellen White, but that is neither here nor there, in this case. I only pointed out that YOU are using EGW to refute the Bible. In order to do that, you would have to believe Ellen White, which is impossible. For to believe EGW, you would first have to believe the Bible, and you claim that you don't.

To refute the Bible, you can only use the Bible. You can't use what I believe to refute it, or what anybody else believes. Including EGW.

Your main reason for rejecting the Bible seems to be because of "a few days of torture" but that is nowhere in the Bible. I'm saying that maybe you CAN believe the Bible, if you stop looking at what others believe, and just look at the Bible. Maybe you just cannot be an SDA. If you would believe what you can, about the Bible, and the Bible only, God will not reject you for that. It is a start. There will be more than just SDAs in heaven. In fact, that will be the smallest group there, overall.

[skyblue888]

Events taking place after the 1,000 years:

"Satan has led the multitudes to believe that the City of God would be an easy prey; but he knows that this is false... He sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for Heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of Heaven would be to him supreme torture. His accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced. The reproach which he has endeavored to cast upon Jehovah rests wholly upon himself. And now Satan bows down and confess the justice of his sentence...

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of Heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects (who have just been raised from the dead) and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at en end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them."

Ezekiel the prophet describes this event in these words:

"Saith the Lord: 'Because you have set your heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon you, the terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and they shall defile your brightness. They shall bring you down to the pit.'" Ezekiel 28:6.

So this judgment of God will not come directly out from the Lord upon Satan and his angels but God will not interfere when the terrible of the nations shall turn upon them with the fury of demons and they will bring them down to the pit. This pit, of course, is the lake of fire. In this last struggle, the weapons used will cause the earth to shake violently and volcanoes to erupt all over the earth and this is how Satan and his evil angels and all the wicked shall finally perish. They will destroy each other.

Of course, the language of the Bible is that "Fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." Rev.20:9.

It is the language which is consistent throughout the Bible. The Lord had said to David, through the prophet, "I will raise evil out of your own house." But the pen of inspiration is quick to explain that language: "Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." P.P.739,.

It will be the same after the 1,000 years. God will not exercise His power to prevent the wicked to turn upon Satan and his angels to bring them down to the pit.

God will not torture anyone. He is simply allowing the course of rebellion to take its course. Is it not justice that He should not interfere when those who have been deceived by Satan should turn against him in the end and make him suffer for all the suffereing that he has caused?

sky

"I was shown that God's judgments would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White.

[Kevin H]

I have read that fire can mean a certain type of metaphorical cleansing. I have no problem with that.

I wasn't referring to a text' date=' but to Ellen White when she states that some will burn for days.

I see no point in torturing people for days who are going to be dead for all eternity anyway. It really negates the idea of forgiveness. It re-establishes an eye for an eye mentality.

And what is learned by the saved from this display of horror for days? I know I would be pretty angry at god for doing this. I could not in good conscience do this to even the worst of my enemies. It is abhorrent to me.

And it is equally abhorrent to me that Christians find this to be perfectly reasonable. This establishes the idea that good people will do good and evil people will do evil, but religion makes good people do evil.

[Guest]

So you're still using a straw man argument. Refute the Bible with what's in the Bible. People have let you get away with saying things about the Bible that are not in the Bible for a long time.

[ClubV12]

RLH, this is one of the few times where I fully support the "bible and the bible only" as a methodolgy for this discussion. cardw accepts neither Ellen White nor the bible as an authority. The only reasonable conclusion is making a case from the bible alone.

...which, by the way, I believe is impossible to do for those who adamantly reject the concept of faith and desire "proof". Spiritual things are spiritually understood so without at least a measure of faith, accepted, the argument goes nowhere.

[skyblue888]

Club! why are you saying this? are not her writings supposed to be in harmony with Scripture? So what if card believes neither.

sky

[skyblue888]

Different people reach that state at different times. Thus some are consumed quickly others, who have done more intense fighting of the Holy Spirit, and who have enjoyed more the pleasure of contempt reach this point later on. This is why some suffer longer than others. And God is doing everything short of forcing their will to save them. I hope this helps.

Kevin

______

Right on Kevin. This agrees with what I once posted before. The more wicked a person is the more he/she wants to stay alive. Satan will suffer the most for he will manage to stay alive the longest.

sky

But I don't agree with your thoughts that the wicked at that time will be offered forgiveness. Where did you get that idea Kevin?

[ClubV12]

I just don't think in THIS case it's relevant to cardw's position. But then again, I'm not sure the bible itself is relevant to his position either!

Frame your position with the knowledge and insights of what Ellen White says, certainly.

[skyblue888]

Club, read Ezekiel 28:6-19 and Isaiah 14:12-19 again and there it is clearly revealed how Satan will fall after the 1,000 years.

sky

[ClubV12]

Well there you go! For THIS discussion I think thats what we need, biblical referrence points.

As the original thread starter (the OP) initially requested.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You know that Ellen White says that some of the wicked will burn for days. When we combine the two different posts you are basically admitting that Ellen White refutes the Bible. Because, in this case, the "other people" is Ellen White.

This really exposes your lack of candor.

Not true at all. I believe Ellen White, but that is neither here nor there, in this case. I only pointed out that YOU are using EGW to refute the Bible. In order to do that, you would have to believe Ellen White, which is impossible. For to believe EGW, you would first have to believe the Bible, and you claim that you don't.

To refute the Bible, you can only use the Bible. You can't use what I believe to refute it, or what anybody else believes. Including EGW.

I don't believe either. And evidently you believe that Ellen White reveals something different than the Bible. I don't care where you get the few days from, it still is torture.

Other Christians say the Bible states that the lost will burn forever. That is even worse if they are going to be the majority in heaven. To consider that punishment to equal the crime is just as insane.

Having one's skin burned off over and over for all eternity is so inhumane as to defy all decency to even consider it as a reasonable and just punishment.

[cardw]

So you're still using a straw man argument. Refute the Bible with what's in the Bible. People have let you get away with saying things about the Bible that are not in the Bible for a long time.

You have to be more specific.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I have read that fire can mean a certain type of metaphorical cleansing. I have no problem with that.

I wasn't referring to a text, but to Ellen White when she states that some will burn for days.

I see no point in torturing people for days who are going to be dead for all eternity anyway. It really negates the idea of forgiveness. It re-establishes an eye for an eye mentality.

And what is learned by the saved from this display of horror for days? I know I would be pretty angry at god for doing this. I could not in good conscience do this to even the worst of my enemies. It is abhorrent to me.

And it is equally abhorrent to me that Christians find this to be perfectly reasonable. This establishes the idea that good people will do good and evil people will do evil, but religion makes good people do evil.

This slavish reliance on the Bible to define what we should think is idolatry in religious terms and insanity in secular ones.

.....They see loved ones inside the city who they long to be with. But they also remember how they have used loved ones for their own selfish purposes and how they still have that tendencies, and these loved ones are standing near that throne and the one on the throne knows their deepest thoughts and so they want to pull back. But Jesus is still their deepest desire. They want to come but they refuse to. They have forgiveness and healing offered to them, but choose the pleasure of contempt and going poor me poor me, I knew all was out to get me. They made a life of refusing the pleadings of the Holy Spirit and they continue to resist. Yet Jesus is still the one all together lovely and their deepest desire. This continues. It is a horrible position to be in, yet it still has the pleasure of contempt. Even thought it is a morbid pleasure, God would not take away from them the slightest thing that they find pleasure in. Eventually this situation of wanting to come to Jesus but refusing becomes so intense that they try to compromise, they bow down and confess that Jesus is Lord and that in the issues of the great controversy God is right. However they do not want to live in the type of world that is focused on self sacrificing love and righteousness by faith. They want a life of the pleasure of contempt and if they can't have this they choose to no longer exist.

Different people reach that state at different times. Thus some are consumed quickly others, who have done more intense fighting of the Holy Spirit, and who have enjoyed more the pleasure of contempt reach this point later on. This is why some suffer longer than others. And God is doing everything short of forcing their will to save them. I hope this helps

This is a pretty narrow view of people's motivation. This presumes to know a lot about what people are thinking. You will note that I'm not complaining about poor me. I am quite thankful for the life I have.

This is the problem with going to the Bible to justify this horrible idea. You stop feeling and develop these complicated justifications for torture.

If I was sitting on the wall watching people burn I couldn't even watch for 30 seconds without wanting to throw up. There is nothing there for me since I would have made my mind up already.

You ignore the human suffering and that is why your belief is evil. You reduce people to things to be used to vindicate god. If this is not the definition of a tyrant, I don't know what is. This is dehumanizing. This is the same basis that all tyrants use to justify their violence and cruelty.

It is repulsive to me when you say that God longs for them to repent. If this god knows the end from the beginning he already knows they aren't going to. This makes god an even worse monster or powerless because poor god, his hands are tied. He would really like to relieve their suffering, but he respects their choice and it is important that we all see how horrible sin is.

What we really are seeing is how horrible god is.

[phkrause]

Other Christians say the Bible states that the lost will burn forever.

I don't believe that for one minute, and I'm pretty sure you don't either. I'm also pretty sure you've read the Bible, and you have a pretty good idea of what the meanings are of some of those texts that do mention that people will burn for eternity? We know from the OT that S&G also was to burn for eternity! I believe that its not burning for eternity, or do we actually see a smoldering coming from that place still today? So why you make comments like that amaze's me, seen I have the feeling you don't believe that yourself. And as far as EGWs comments on this, I'm not sure how to take that, but I do know that when Christ comes to redeem us, we will get all the answers we need.

[skyblue888]

Card, the message to you is "Acquaint now yourself with God" because you have made it perfectly clear that you do not know Him aright, and you are not the only one. "Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people" as far as the knowledge of God is concerned.

sky

[ClubV12]

Ellen Whites account of the final battle, after the 1,000 year review, is far to detailed to be opinion or speculation. In fact, she sternly advises against speculation in any area.

Her account of this battle is either inspired or it is fiction. Take your pick.

[Israfel]

Death is one thing, but why the torture? Of what value is burning people for a few days when they are going to be dead for eternity? It makes no sense to raise people from the dead simply to torture them for a few days. What is the lesson? In some versions of Christianity god tortures people in a lake of fire for all eternity.

There is no reconciliation between a god of love and a god who is willing to torture. This is sickening to me to even consider that there are people who consider torture by god as reasonable.

[Israfel]

cntd.

"Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezek 33:11

"[who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; *a just God and a Saviour; *[there is] none beside me.

*Look unto me, and be ye saved, *all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. " Isa 45:21b,22

As we believe in His salvation, we are not condemned; we are saved from the inevitable effect of sin, now and forever.

Now why there is death penalty in the first place?

We find the answer in Genesis chapter 2 and 3

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. " Gen 2:16,17

“God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: ” Gen. 3:3b

So we see here that the wages of sin is death, because there has to be due process of law for God is a just God. There has to be justice for both obedient and the disobedient of the law. Even divinity is not exempt from it, he could not abrogate, change or abolish it for humanity, to the point that He had to die for us.

BUT the free gift of God is eternal life:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Gen. 3:15

Jesus bruised Satan’s head on the cross.

to be cntd.

[Israfel]

cntd

Why raise people up only to kill them again?

My answer: Well the bible testifies that this will not be an easy job for our Heavenly Father to perform...

"For the LORD shall rise up as [in] mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as [in] the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. " Isaiah 28:21

Just like God could not change the law when Adam sinned, he can nonetheless avoid the destruction of the unrepentant sinner, however they will not burn forever, that would not be of a loving character.

when the bible speak about eternal fire or that the wicked burn forever it is not saying that the will burn continually but that forever they will die, by fire never to be awaken again.

He must show each human being why they receive eternal life or eternal damnation.

A quote from one of my favourite authors

“Then it will be seen that Satan's rebellion against God has resulted in ruin to himself and to all that chose to become his subjects. He has represented that great good would result from transgression; but it will be seen that "the wages of sin is death." "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: *and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1. *Satan, the root of every sin, and all evil workers, who are his branches, shall be utterly cut off. An end will be made of sin, with all the woe and ruin that have resulted from it. *Says the psalmist, "Thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever. *O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end." Psalm 9:5, 6. E G White {PP 341.1}

Satan is a liar and a deceiver. He deceived one third of the angelic host; so he wants people to see God as a cruel tyrant who torture his subject even if it is not true.

By the way, Satan would delight in perpetrating eternal life of sinners (Another subject)

that is therefore the command was given to guard the entrance of the garden of Eden so the pair would not have access to the tree of life after sin; eat of it, so he did not and will never succeed no matter what he tries.

Hope you get things sorted out clearer Rich.

God bless your reading.

[cardw]

Card, the message to you is "Acquaint now yourself with God" because you have made it perfectly clear that you do not know Him aright, and you are not the only one. "Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people" as far as the knowledge of God is concerned.

sky

[cardw]

This reliance on written authority creates monsters.

John Calvin is lionized by Ellen White as one of the great Protestant Reformers responsible for leading Christianity on the right path.

Hardly...Using the same authoritarian reasoning from the Bible this was fruit of his rule over Geneva...

Quote:

Calvin: A Biography by Bernard Cottret

"9. (page 180) February 1545 - "Freckles" Dunant dies under torture without admitting to the crime of spreading the plague. His body was then dragged to the middle of town and burned.

10. (page 180) 1545 - Following the incident with Dunant, several more men and women were apprehended including a barber and a hospital supervisor who had "made a pact with the devil."

11. (page 180) March 7, 1545 - Two women executed by burning at the stake (presumably for the crime of sorcery, i.e. spreading the plague). CALVIN INTERCEDED apparently to have them executed sooner rather than later after additional time in prison. The Council followed his directive happily and urged the executioner to "be more diligent in cutting off the hands of malefactors."

12. (page 180) 1545 - more executions, tortures carefully watched to prevent death. Most of the tortured refused to confess. Means of death varied a little to include decapitation. All under the crime of spreading the plague. Some committed suicide in their cells to avoid torture, afterward the rest were handcuffed. One woman then threw herself through a window.

13. (page 208) 1545 - CALVIN HAD the magistrates seize Belot, an Anabaptist (against infant baptism) for stating that the Old Testament was abolished by the New. Belot was chained and tortured.

14. (page 180) May 16, 1545 - The last execution concerning the plague outbreak, bringing the total dead to 7 men and 24 women. A letter from CALVIN attests to 15 of these women being burned at the stake. CALVIN'S only concern was that the plague had not come to his house.

15. (page 189) April 1546 - Ami Perrin put on trial for refusing to testify against several friends who were guilty of having danced. She was incarcerated for refusal to testify.

16. (page 190) July 1546 - Jacques Gruet was accused of writing a poster against Calvin. He was arrested and tortured until he admitted to the crime. He was then executed."

The reason we have this amount of detail is that Calvin himself kept these notes fully thinking he was doing god's work.

This is the result of justifying torture. You will eventually take on the character of the god you make up in your own mind.

[John317]

This reliance on written authority creates monsters.

John Calvin is lionized by Ellen White as one of the great Protestant Reformers responsible for leading Christianity on the right path.

Yes, you've made this claim many times on this forum. Ellen White also "lionized" Martin Luther, but the fact that she speaks of those men in positive ways doesn't mean she accepted as good everything they said or did. They both made great errors, but then do did King David and Moses, etc.

[Kevin H]

This is a pretty narrow view of people's motivation. This presumes to know a lot about what people are thinking. You will note that I'm not complaining about poor me. I am quite thankful for the life I have.

Well, those who are going to be lost will have developed a very narrow character at this time. I have noted that you are not complaining about "Poor me" but I do not assume that you are lost. Just because you have not done the "work" of "saying the magic words about Jesus" let me remind you that we are saved by Grace, saved by what Jesus did on the cross. The Holy Spirit is working with every heart, Seventth-day Adventists, Methodists, Jews, Buddhists, Athiests etc. We are constantly making choices that are either bringing us closer to God or farther away. Cardw, you are a work in progress, you have not turned out yet. Don't jump to conclusions about what the final work will be while the artist is still working on it.

It would be wise to read Eli Siegel's 1A pleasure and 2A pleasure, and William Glasser's Pleasure vs. Happiness. Now granted the lost don't have all the things described on their lists, some are quite extream, but they list different attitudes that we are developing either for our good or our detrament. Also the Great Divorce is a wonderful book. You have read Calvin, have you read Lewis's "The Great Divorce" also the Screwtape letters, The Magician's nephew, and The last battle?

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is the problem with going to the Bible to justify this horrible idea. You stop feeling and develop these complicated justifications for torture.

If I was sitting on the wall watching people burn I couldn't even watch for 30 seconds without wanting to throw up. There is nothing there for me since I would have made my mind up already.

You ignore the human suffering and that is why your belief is evil. You reduce people to things to be used to vindicate god. If this is not the definition of a tyrant, I don't know what is. This is dehumanizing. This is the same basis that all tyrants use to justify their violence and cruelty.

It is repulsive to me when you say that God longs for them to repent. If this god knows the end from the beginning he already knows they aren't going to. This makes god an even worse monster or powerless because poor god, his hands are tied. He would really like to relieve their suffering, but he respects their choice and it is important that we all see how horrible sin is.

What we really are seeing is how horrible god is.

You keep talking about torture. Please tell me just what do you understand to be happening outside of the city? What is horrible about saying "I love you you are welcome to be with me. My grace is sufficient for you. Yes, God knows the end from the begining, because God transends time and space. But there is also an aspect of God that is also dealing with what is happening moment by moment as described in the book (in a very one sided book but it is half the truth, and a half we tend to forget) Richard Rice's "The Openness of God"

More important than showing how horrible sin is, is the idea that every human has the freedom to say "Yes, I want to live with God and my loved ones who have choosen life" or "I don't want to live that life and prefer not to exist anymore."

But anyway God is treating everyone the same. The saved and lost both are offered the chance to expirence heaven and some decide that they don't want it. Where is God imposing some kind of torture? God is not throwing a barbecue, He just answers their questions and reminds them that his grace is sufficient for them and they make their choices. Are you saying that God should tell the saved "Hey, the other's don't want to be here anyway so I'm not going to allow them to make their choice very clear?

I also have a question for you Cardw. Let's say you wre God. What better things would you do to deal with the issues of the Great Controversy? How should God have done things?

[skyblue888]

Kevin, Are you saying that God, after the 1,000 years, is going to say to the multitudes of the already lost, "My grace is sufficient for you"?

True they will be made to understand then that His grace would have been sufficient for them had they not resisted the gift but to say that God will, in that day of the executive judgment, say to them, "My grace is sufficient for you" as though it was still time for them to accept the Gospel, is quite different.

Christ does say to us today, "My grace is sufficient for you" and when He comes in the clouds of Heaven He will say to those who have waited for Him, "My grace is sufficient for you," but He will say no such thing to those who shall have part in the second resurrection.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." Heb.9:27.

sky