WAS JOHN HARVEY KELLOGG A PANTHEIST?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

In the book Patriarchs and Prophets, p.114, Mrs. White quotes John 5:17 and says, "Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hiehter to, and I work.' Joh 5:17.

That statement is also true, but again it is not saying what Kellogg taught.

Remember that Ellen White wrote that many people, especially those who have accepted Kellogg's teachings, are unable to see the difference between Kellogg's statements and hers.

A continual working by the Father and by Christ does not mean that God and Christ are personally dwelling in nature or in all men.

Notice "an active energy." This is not God's actually being in nature.

Before it says "an active energy," notice how it says, "an intelligence, a presence," but of course, you would zero in on "active energy" forgetting it says it is an intelligence presence as she also says in Ministry of Healing, 416: "Nature testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will."

This "intelligent presence," or "active agency" is the Holy Spirit, God's immediate agency.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

It is not exactly like lots of "maybes" and you know it.

No, I don't know it, and I don't think anyone else does, either. At least they have not shown it.

If you have them, then please show the certainties and facts that you can prove which show a direct connection between your allegations and Ellen White's writings.

Allegations, conjectures, high sounding words!

sky

[John317]

Before it says "an active energy," notice how it says, "an intelligence, a presence," but of course, you would zero in on "active energy" forgetting it says it is an intelligence presence as she also says in Ministry of Healing, 416: "Nature testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Beng who moves in all things according to His will."

This "intelligent presnce," or "active agency" is the Holy Spirit, God's immediate agency.

"Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son." PP 114

The evidence of intelligence and presence and active energy are all the same thing. If Ellen White was referring to God by the name "intelligence and presence," those words would have been capitalized. She is talking about the laws that God works through.

She clearly says that God is working through laws and through the active energy and this shows an intelligence and presence of a Supreme Being. But the Supreme Being is not actually and personally in the things of nature.

[skyblue888]

He is by the Holy Spirit. I have shown you a statement from Testimonies vol.8 in which she says, "The Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed causing it to spring into life." p.326.

She put a capital "S" here but you refuse to accept that as all may know.

In the book Education, p.100 she puts a capital "P" to presence in nature but u still don't believe.

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things."

Has your heart been so hardened by contact with evil that you cannot accept these simplest declarations?

sky

[John317]

Please answer this:

Were the following messages written by Ellen White? If you don't believe so, tell us who wrote them and give your evidence of this.

Quote:

I am given a message to bear to you and the rest of our physicians who are connected with the Medical Missionary Association. Separate from the influence exerted by the book Living Temple; [A 568-PAGE BOOK ISSUED IN 1903 BY DR. J. H. KELLOGG IN WHICH PANTHEISTIC PHILOSOPHIES WERE PROMULGATED.--COMPILERS.] for it contains specious sentiments. There are in it sentiments that are entirely true, but these are mingled with error. Scriptures are taken out of their connection, and are used to uphold erroneous theories. {1SM 199.1}

The thought of the errors contained in this book has given me great distress, and the experience that I have passed through in connection with the matter has nearly cost me my life. {1SM 199.2}

It will be said that Living Temple has been revised. But the Lord has shown me that the writer has not changed, and that there can be no unity between him and the ministers of the gospel while he continues to cherish his present sentiments. I am bidden to lift my voice in warning to our people, saying, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked" (Galatians 6:7). {1SM 199.3}

You have had access to Testimonies for the Church, volumes 7 and 8. In these Testimonies the danger signal is raised. But the light so clear and plain to minds that have not been influenced by deceptive theories, has not been discerned by some. While the misleading theories of this book are entertained by our physicians, there cannot be union between them and the ministers who are bearing the gospel message. There should be no union until there is a change. {1SM 199.4}

When medical missionaries make their practice and example harmonize with the name they bear, when they feel their need of uniting firmly with the ministers of the gospel, then there can be harmonious action. But we must

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firmly refuse to be drawn away from the platform of eternal truth, which since 1844 has stood the test. {1SM 199.5}

Alpha Presented in "Living Temple"

I am instructed to speak plainly. "Meet it," is the word spoken to me. "Meet it firmly, and without delay." But it is not to be met by our taking our working forces from the field to investigate doctrines and points of difference. We have no such investigation to make. In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1}

Our physicians, upon whom important responsibilities rest, should have clear spiritual discernment. They are to stand constantly on guard. Dangers that we do not now discern will soon break upon us, and I greatly desire that they shall not be deceived. I have an intense longing to see them standing free in the Lord. I pray that they may have courage to stand firm for the truth as it is in Jesus, holding fast the beginning of their confidence unto the end.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 2, pp. 49, 50. {1SM 200.2}

[skyblue888]

sky quoted: "Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son." Patriarchs and Prophets, 114

John's reply: The evidence of intelligence and presence and active energy are all the same thing. If Ellen White was referring to God by the name "intelligence and presence," those words would have been capitalized.

sky's reply: God the Father and Christ are present in nature by the Holy Spirit. I have shown you a statement from Testimonies vol.8 in which she says, "The Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed causing it to spring into life." p.326.

She put a capital "S" here but you refuse to accept that as all may know.

In the book Education, p.100 she puts a capital "P" to presence in nature but u still don't believe.

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things."

You are slow to recognize the "Presence" that pervades all created things. And has your heart been so hardened by contact with evil that you cannot accept these simplest declarations?

sky

[John317]

He is by the Holy Spirit. I have shown you a statement from Testimonies vol.8 in which she says, "The Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed causing it to spring into life." p.326.

Ellen White wrote:

Quote:

There is danger that the false sentiments expressed in the books that they have been reading will sometimes be interwoven by our ministers, teachers, and editors with their arguments, discourses, and publications, under the belief that they are the same in principle as the teachings of the Spirit of truth. The book, Living Temple, is an illustration of this work, the writer of which declared in its support that its teachings were the same as those found in the writings of Mrs. White. Again and again we shall be called to meet the influence of men who are studying sciences of satanic origin, through which Satan is working to make a nonentity of God and of Christ.-- Testimonies, Vol. 9, pp. 67-68. (1909.) {CW 92.3}

[skyblue888]

I am not discussing Kellogg's book here.

I am quoting Ellen White as to the relation between nature and nature's God.

You are ignoring the following:

sky quoted: "Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son." Patriarchs and Prophets, 114

John's reply: The evidence of intelligence and presence and active energy are all the same thing. If Ellen White was referring to God by the name "intelligence and presence," those words would have been capitalized.

sky's reply: God the Father and Christ are present in nature by the Holy Spirit. I have shown you a statement from Testimonies vol.8 in which she says, "The Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed causing it to spring into life." p.326.

She put a capital "S" here but you refuse to accept that as all may know.

In the book Education, p.100 she puts a capital "P" to presence in nature but u still don't believe.

"The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things."

Let me rephrase this: Are we not slow to recognize the "Presence" that pervades all created things? Have our hearts been so hardened by contact with evil that we cannot accept these simplest declarations?

sky

[John317]

See post#461997.

[John317]

Are we going to engage in conversations about the very things that Ellen White has warned us not to? That would be like the devil persuading Eve to disobey God's clear command.

I know there is no way for you to agree with what Ellen White wrote about this because you have already accepted the "hook" that Ellen White warned us against.

So I won't engage in an attempt to reason you out of what you are determined to do.

All I will do is post statements by Ellen White on the subject of Kellogg's false teachings in the Living Temple.

[John317]

Ellen White wrote, concerning the Living Temple:

Quote:

The Lord did not lead in the production of some of the statements that are made in this book [Living Temple]. He has given us His word, and this word is to be the man of our counsel. It seemed to me passing strange that men who have been long in the work cannot discern the character of this book. A great deal of scripture is used, but it is woven in and brought together in such a way that to many minds error is made to appear as truth. Erroneous theories are so presented that those who receive them will certainly be misled, and led on step by step by the enemy. {CW 157.2}

If ever there was a time when the writings of every one connected with our work should be closely criticized, it is now. The Lord has made known to me that His word is to be studied, and as no such representations as those made in Living Temple are made in the word, we are to reject them. We are to take the word as God has given it to us. If Christ had thought it essential for such theories to be presented to human minds, He would have included them in His teachings. As our Owner and Redeemer, He has put in His word all the instruction that is necessary for our salvation.--Manuscript 127, 1905. {CW 158.1}

[skyblue888]

You said that when Mrs. White is talking about an intelligence, a presence, in nature, that she would capitalize these words if she was talking about the actual presence of God.

You know that God can only be present in nature by the Holy Spirit, His immediate Agency. I shared two statements in which she capitalizes the word "Presence" and identifies that "Presence" as being God by the Holy Spirit.

In the book Education, p.14 she says, "We are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all."

Notice how she capitalizes the word intelligence...

"the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all."

In the next sentence she says that this unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all is "The mind of God."

I invite all who are reading this to turn to page 14 and read it for themselves.

Now we have at least three statements in which she capitalizes the words, Presence, Intelligence, and Spirit.

"the Presence that pervades all created things." Ed.100.

"the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and thruogh all." Ed.14.

"the Lord puts His Spirit into the seed causing it to spring into life." 8 T 326.

Thus "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." 8 T 325.

And, in Signs of the Times, Nov.23,1891, she says that "the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God."

sky

[John317]

None of those statements mean what you think they do. She is not saying that God personally and actually dwells in the things of nature or in all men.

Study the following statement about Kellogg's false teachings:

Quote:

It seemed to me passing strange that men who have been long in the work cannot discern the character of this book. A great deal of scripture is used, but it is woven in and brought together in such a way that to many minds error is made to appear as truth. Erroneous theories are so presented that those who receive them will certainly be misled, and led on step by step by the enemy. {CW 157.2}

You have already prove to me that you are among those unable to distinguish between truth and the erroneous theories that you've evidently received from the enemy.

No one can possibly misunderstand Ellen White's statements about this. The only way they can avoid them is by claiming they weren't written by Ellen White. This they will do in order to hold on to the false doctrines, even though there is no valid evidence supporting their theories that Ellen White's Testimonies were forged.

[skyblue888]

Are we going to engage in conversations about the very things that Ellen White has warned us not to? That would be like the devil persuading Eve to disobey God's clear command.

John317

__________________

If you believe this, why, then, are you engaging in this type of conversation?

I don't know any other type of conversation in which you like to engage so much as this one except for may be the trinity.

sky

[John317]

What does this statement say?

Quote:

In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1}

Are some already deceived? Will others go on to be deceived because they too refused to listen?

[skyblue888]

What does this statement say?

Quote:

In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1}

Are some already deceived? Will others go on to be deceived because they too refused to listen?

I know that pantheism is one thing but this is not pantheism:

You said that when Mrs. White is talking about an intelligence, a presence, in nature, that she would capitalize these words if she was talking about the actual presence of God.

You know that God can only be present in nature by the Holy Spirit, His immediate Agency. I shared two statements in which she capitalizes the word "Presence" and identifies that "Presence" as being God by the Holy Spirit.

In the book Education, p.14 she says, "We are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all."

Notice how she capitalizes the word intelligence...

"the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all."

In the next sentence she says that this unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all is "The mind of God." Education,14.

I invite all who are reading this to turn to page 14 and read it for themselves.

Now we have at least three statements in which she capitalizes the words, Presence, Intelligence, and Spirit.

"the Presence that pervades all created things." Ed.100.

"the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Ed.14.

"the Lord puts His own Spirit into the seed causing it to spring into life." 8 T 326.

Thus "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." 8 T 325.

And, in Signs of the Times, Nov.23,1891, she says that "the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God."

sky

[John317]

I know there is no way for you to agree with what Ellen White wrote about this because you have already accepted the "hook" that Ellen White warned us against.

So I won't engage in an attempt to reason you out of what you are determined to do.

The statements below by Ellen White will be enough for anyone who believes in her prophetic ministry to realize the danger of the Living Temple and of the false teachings it contains.

Trying to reason people out of accepting Kellogg's beliefs once they have accepted them is like trying to reason Eve out of accepting the Devil's temptations after she took of the fruit and ate it. Ellen White said this herself, and it's been demonstrated here to be the truth.

Quote:

One and another come to me, asking me to explain the positions taken in Living Temple. I reply, "They are unexplainable." The sentiments expressed do not give a true knowledge of God. All through the book are passages of Scripture. These scriptures are brought in in such a way that error is made to appear as truth. Erroneous theories are presented in so pleasing a way that unless care is taken, many will be misled. {1SM 202.1}

We need not the mysticism that is in this book. Those who entertain these sophistries will soon find themselves in a position where the enemy can talk with them, and lead them away from God. It is represented to me that the writer of this book is on a false track. He has lost sight of the distinguishing truths for this time. He knows not whither his steps are tending. The track of truth lies close beside the track of error, and both tracks may seem to be one to minds which are not worked by the Holy Spirit, and which, therefore, are not quick to discern the difference between truth and error. {1SM 202.2}

A View of Approaching Danger

About the time that Living Temple was published, there passed before me in the night season, representations indicating that some danger was approaching, and that I must prepare for it by writing out the things God had revealed to me regarding the foundation principles of our faith. A copy of Living Temple was sent me, but it remained in my library, unread. From the light given me by the Lord, I knew that some of the sentiments advocated in the book did not bear the endorsement of God, and that they were a snare that the enemy had prepared for the last

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days. I thought that this would surely be discerned, and that it would not be necessary for me to say anything about it. {1SM 202.3}

In the controversy that arose among our brethren regarding the teachings of this book, those in favor of giving it a wide circulation declared: "It contains the very sentiments that Sister White has been teaching." This assertion struck right to my heart. I felt heartbroken; for I knew that this representation of the matter was not true. {1SM 203.1}

Finally my son said to me, "Mother, you ought to read at least some parts of the book, that you may see whether they are in harmony with the light that God has given you." He sat down beside me, and together we read the preface, and most of the first chapter, and also paragraphs in other chapters. As we read, I recognized the very sentiments against which I had been bidden to speak in warning during the early days of my public labors. When I first left the State of Maine, it was to go through Vermont and Massachusetts, to bear a testimony against these sentiments. Living Temple contains the alpha of these theories. I knew that the omega would follow in a little while; and I trembled for our people. I knew that I must warn our brethren and sisters not to enter into controversy over the presence and personality of God. The statements made in Living Temple in regard to this point are incorrect. The scripture used to substantiate the doctrine there set forth, is scripture misapplied. {1SM 203.2}

I am compelled to speak in denial of the claim that the teachings of Living Temple can be sustained by statements from my writings. There may be in this book expressions and sentiments that are in harmony with my writings. And there may be in my writings many statements which, taken from their connection, and interpreted according to the mind of the writer of Living Temple, would seem to be in harmony with the teachings of this book. This may give apparent support to the assertion that the sentiments in Living Temple are in harmony with my writings. But God forbid that this sentiment should prevail. {1SM 203.3}

Few can discern the result of entertaining the sophistries

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advocated by some at this time. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me the result that would follow. The spiritualistic theories regarding the personality of God, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John to give to His people. They teach that the scenes just before us are not of sufficient importance to be given special attention. They make of no effect the truth of heavenly origin, and rob the people of God of their past experience, giving them instead a false science. {1SM 203.4}

In a vision of the night I was shown distinctly that these sentiments have been looked upon by some as the grand truths that are to be brought in and made prominent at the present time. I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers--the truths of the Word of God. Someone high in responsibility in the medical work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, "Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action." {1SM 204.1}

The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a

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wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}

Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 205.1}

I hesitated and delayed about the sending out of that which the Spirit of the Lord impelled me to write. I did not want to be compelled to present the misleading influence of these sophistries. But in the providence of God, the errors that have been coming in must be met. {1SM 205.2}

An Iceberg! "Meet It"

Shortly before I sent out the testimonies regarding the efforts of the enemy to undermine the foundation of our faith through the dissemination of seductive theories, I had read an incident about a ship in a fog meeting an iceberg. For several nights I slept but little. I seemed to be bowed down as a cart beneath sheaves. One night a scene was clearly presented before me. A vessel was upon the waters, in a heavy fog. Suddenly the lookout cried, "Iceberg just ahead!" There, towering high above the ship, was a gigantic iceberg. An authoritative voice cried out, "Meet it!" There was not a moment's hesitation. It was a time for instant action. The engineer put on full steam, and the man at the wheel steered the ship straight into the iceberg. With a crash she struck the ice. There was a fearful shock, and the iceberg broke into many pieces, falling with a noise like thunder to the deck. The passengers were violently shaken by the force of the collisions, but no lives were lost. The vessel was injured, but not beyond repair. She rebounded from the contact, trembling from

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stem to stern, like a living creature. Then she moved forward on her way. {1SM 205.3}

Well I knew the meaning of this representation. I had my orders. I had heard the words, like a voice from our Captain, "Meet it!" I knew what my duty was, and that there was not a moment to lose. The time for decided action had come. I must without delay obey the command, "Meet it!". {1SM 206.1}

That night I was up at one o'clock, writing as fast as my hand could pass over the paper. For the next few days I worked early and late, preparing for our people the instruction given me regarding the errors that were coming in among us. {1SM 206.2}

I have been hoping that there would be a thorough reformation, and that the principles for which we fought in the early days, and which were brought out in the power of the Holy Spirit, would be maintained. {1SM 206.3}

This discussion has run its course. It will now be closed.