WAS JOHN HARVEY KELLOGG A PANTHEIST?

[John317]

Dr. Kellogg believed and taught that God Himself is actually and truly present in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, in food, the water, in all men. LT 28, 53.

Ellen White believed and taught that God does NOT dwell personally in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, the water, in food, in all men.

Originally Posted By: miz3

.... you belittle this book because of the jealousy and greed of human entities!

Below are paragraphs by Ellen White concerning The Living Temple. They prove that Ellen White believed that the Lord showed her the great dangers in the book, The Living Temple. She says that she "had her orders" from God to send out warnings againt the teachings found in that volume.

Please read them carefully:

Quote:

I am given a message to bear to you and the rest of our physicians who are connected with the Medical Missionary Association. Separate from the influence exerted by the book Living Temple; [A 568-PAGE BOOK ISSUED IN 1903 BY DR. J. H. KELLOGG IN WHICH PANTHEISTIC PHILOSOPHIES WERE PROMULGATED.--COMPILERS.] for it contains specious sentiments. There are in it sentiments that are entirely true, but these are mingled with error. Scriptures are taken out of their connection, and are used to uphold erroneous theories. {1SM 199.1}

The thought of the errors contained in this book has given me great distress, and the experience that I have passed through in connection with the matter has nearly cost me my life. {1SM 199.2}

It will be said that Living Temple has been revised. But the Lord has shown me that the writer has not changed, and that there can be no unity between him and the ministers of the gospel while he continues to cherish his present sentiments. I am bidden to lift my voice in warning to our people, saying, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked" (Gala

tians 6:7). {1SM 199.3}

You have had access to Testimonies for the Church, volumes 7 and 8. In these Testimonies the danger signal is raised. But the light so clear and plain to minds that have not been influenced by deceptive theories, has not been discerned by some. While the misleading theories of this book are entertained by our physicians, there cannot be union between them and the ministers who are bearing the gospel message. There should be no union until there is a change. {1SM 199.4}

When medical missionaries make their practice and example harmonize with the name they bear, when they feel their need of uniting firmly with the ministers of the gospel, then there can be harmonious action. But we must firmly refuse to be drawn away from the platform of eternal truth, which since 1844 has stood the test. {1SM 199.5}

Alpha Presented in "Living Temple"

I am instructed to speak plainly. "Meet it," is the word spoken to me. "Meet it firmly, and without delay." But it is not to be met by our taking our working forces from the field to investigate doctrines and points of difference. We have no such investigation to make. In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1}

Our physicians, upon whom important responsibilities rest, should have clear spiritual discernment. They are to stand constantly on guard. Dangers that we do not now discern will soon break upon us, and I greatly desire that they shall not be deceived. I have an intense longing to see them standing free in the Lord. I pray that they may have courage to stand firm for the truth as it is in Jesus, holding fast the beginning of their confidence unto the end.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 2, pp. 49, 50. {1SM 200.2}

Chap. 25 - The Foundation of Our Faith

[THIS

ARTICLE APPEARED IN SPECIAL TESTIMONIES,

SERIES B, NO. 2, PAGES 51-59, PUBLISHED IN 1904.]

-

The Lord will put new, vital force into His work as human agencies obey the command to go forth and proclaim the truth. He who declared that His truth would shine forever will proclaim this truth through faithful messengers, who will give the trumpet a certain sound. The truth will be criticized, scorned, and derided; but the closer it is examined and tested, the brighter it will shine. {1SM 201.1}

As a people, we are to stand firm on the platform of eternal truth that has withstood test and trial. We are to hold to the sure pillars of our faith. The principles of truth that God has revealed to us are our only true foundation. They have made us what we are. The lapse of time has not lessened their value. It is the constant effort of the enemy to remove these truths from their setting, and to put in their place spurious theories. He will bring in everything that he possibly can to carry out his deceptive designs. But the Lord will raise up men of keen perception, who will give these truths their proper place in the plan of God. {1SM 201.2}

I have been instructed by the heavenly messenger that some of the reasoning in the book Living Temple is unsound, and that this reasoning would lead astray the minds of those who are not thoroughly established on the foundation principles of present truth. It introduces that which is nought but speculation in regard to the personality of God and where His presence is. No one on this earth has a right to speculate on this question. The more fanciful theories are discussed, the less men will know of God and of the truth that sanctifies the soul. {1SM 201.3}

One and another come to me, asking me to explain the positions taken in Living Temple. I reply, "They are unexplainable." The sentiments expressed do not give a true knowledge of God. All through the book are passages of Scripture. These scriptures are brought in in such a way that error is made to appear as truth. Erroneous theories are presented in so pleasing a way that unless care is taken, many will be misled. {1SM 202.1}

We need not the mysticism that is in this book. Those who entertain these sophistries will soon find themselves in a position where the enemy can talk with them, and lead them away from God. It is represented to me that the writer of this book is on a false track. He has lost sight of the distinguishing truths for this time. He knows not whither his steps are tending. The track of truth lies close beside the track of error, and both tracks may seem to be one to minds which are not worked by the Holy Spirit, and which, therefore, are not quick to discern the difference between truth and error. {1SM 202.2}

A View of Approaching Danger

About the time that Living Temple was published, there passed before me in the night season, representations indicating that some danger was approaching, and that I must prepare for it by writing out the things God had revealed to me regarding the foundation principles of our faith. A copy of Living Temple was sent me, but it remained in my library, unread. From the light given me by the Lord, I knew that some of the sentiments advocated in the book did not bear the endorsement of God, and that they were a snare that the enemy had prepared for the last days. I thought that this would surely be discerned, and that it would not be necessary for me to say anything about it. {1SM 202.3}

In the controversy that arose among our brethren regarding the teachings of this book, those in favor of giving it a wide circulation declared: "It contains the very sentiments that Sister White has been teaching." This assertion struck right to my heart. I felt heartbroken; for I knew that this representation of the matter was not true. {1SM 203.1}

Finally my son said to me, "Mother, you ought to read at least some parts of the book, that you may see whether they are in harmony with the light that God has given you." He sat down beside me, and together we read the preface, and most of the first chapter, and also paragraphs in other chapters. As we read, I recognized the very sentiments against which I had been bidden to speak in warning during the early days of my public labors. When I first left the State of Maine, it was to go through Vermont and Massachusetts, to bear a testimony against these sentiments. Living Temple contains the alpha of these theories. I knew that the omega would follow in a little while; and I trembled for our people. I knew that I must warn our brethren and sisters not to enter into controversy over the presence and personality of God. The statements made in Living Temple in regard to this point are incorrect. The scripture used to substantiate the doctrine there set forth, is scripture misapplied. {1SM 203.2}

I am compelled to speak in denial of the claim that the teachings of Living Temple can be sustained by statements from my writings. There may be in this book expressions and sentiments that are in harmony with my writings. And there may be in my writings many statements which, taken from their connection, and interpreted according to the mind of the writer of Living Temple, would seem to be in harmony with the teachings of this book. This may give apparent support to the assertion that the sentiments in Living Temple are in harmony with my writings. But God forbid that this sentiment should prevail. {1SM 203.3}

Few can discern the result of entertaining the sophistries advocated by some at this time. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me the result that would follow. The spiritualistic theories regarding the personality of God, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John to give to His people. They teach that the scenes just before us are not of sufficient importance to be given special attention. They make of no effect the truth of heavenly origin, and rob the people of God of their past experience, giving them instead a false science. {1SM 203.4}

In a vision of the night I was shown distinctly that these sentiments have been looked upon by some as the grand truths that are to be brought in and made prominent at the present time. I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers--the truths of the Word of God. Someone high in responsibility in the medical work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, "Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action." {1SM 204.1}

The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure. {1SM 204.2}

Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? {1SM 205.1}

I hesitated and delayed about the sending out of that which the Spirit of the Lord impelled me to write. I did not want to be compelled to present the misleading influence of these sophistries. But in the providence of God, the errors that have been coming in must be met. {1SM 205.2}

An Iceberg! "Meet It"

Shortly before I sent out the testimonies regarding the efforts of the enemy to undermine the foundation of our faith through the dissemination of seductive theories, I had read an incident about a ship in a fog meeting an iceberg. For several nights I slept but little. I seemed to be bowed down as a cart beneath sheaves. One night a scene was clearly presented before me. A vessel was upon the waters, in a heavy fog. Suddenly the lookout cried, "Iceberg just ahead!" There, towering high above the ship, was a gigantic iceberg. An authoritative voice cried out, "Meet it!" There was not a moment's hesitation. It was a time for instant action. The engineer put on full steam, and the man at the wheel steered the ship straight into the iceberg. With a crash she struck the ice. There was a fearful shock, and the iceberg broke into many pieces, falling with a noise like thunder to the deck. The passengers were violently shaken by the force of the collisions, but no lives were lost. The vessel was injured, but not beyond repair. She rebounded from the contact, trembling from stem to stern, like a living creature. Then she moved forward on her way. {1SM 205.3}

Well I knew the meaning of this representation. I had my orders. I had heard the words, like a voice from our Captain, "Meet it!" I knew what my duty was, and that there was not a moment to lose. The time for decided action had come. I must without delay obey the command, "Meet it!". {1SM 206.1}

That night I was up at one o'clock, writing as fast as my hand could pass over the paper. For the next few days I worked early and late, preparing for our people the instruction given me regarding the errors that were coming in among us. {1SM 206.2}

I have been hoping that there would be a thorough reformation, and that the principles for which we fought in the early days, and which were brought out in the power of the Holy Spirit, would be maintained. {1SM 206.3}

Can there really be any doubt that Ellen White was inspired by God to write what she did in regard to The Living Temple? Can there be any doubt that we must either accept her counsel or else we must reject her as a fraud or as a woman suffering a delusion? I don't see any other reasonable alternatives.

I would add just two points:

1) Some of Ellen White's writings about the Living Temple are in her own own handwriting, showing that she did write them herself.

2) There are research papers which deal at length with the problem of The Living Temple. These go into detail about the differences between Kellogg's teachings and those of Ellen White.

[John317]

Therefore, John, the statement you have quoted dated 1913 cannot be from Mrs. White. Otherwise none of the above would make any sense at all. This is what I mean by the leaders resorting to fraud and guile in order to maintain their high-handed power that they had developed over the years. (T.M.361,366)

I'm sorry I don't know what statement from 1913 you mean. Could you quote it?

[miz3]

Are you kidding? Kellogg eventually became a believer in evolution.

Kellogg taught that God is actually in the flowers and trees and in the water you drink and shower in. He said that you taste God when you eat and that you smell God in the flowers.

This is not the teaching of the Bible or of the Spirit of prophecy.

There's a big difference between God making the flowers and being Himself in the flowers. The flowers and all life are the manifestation of God, but they are not God Himself.

God does not personally and actually dwell in all men. This was Kellogg's belief at the time he wrote the Living Temple. It was a false idea, and Ellen White fought against it.

1. Kellogg was not an evolutionist when he wrote the Living Temple! His evolutionary ideas came well after 1907 when he was away from SDA influence and under the influence of evil philosophies. If he had not been expelled from the SDA Church I doubt Dr. Kellogg would have wondered away into evolution. Thus the SDA Church bears some blame for his fall.

2. As I told you before John317 you are separating God from His Attributes when you do this. God cannot be separated from His Attributes. What you espouse is not Biblical on that basis alone.

3. Here is what the Bible says:

"Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you."

Luke 17:20-21.

God is the Kingdom of God. God is in humans!

"For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

2Corinthians 4:6

According to John chapter one Jesus Christ is the Light and that means Jesus Christ is in our hearts. The Bible is clear!

"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light."

Ephesians 5:8.

Once again Jesus Christ the Light is in us humans.

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

Romans 8:9.

There it is John317 in clear and unambiguous language that the Holy Spirit (God) lives in humans.

"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

Romans 8:10.

Not only is the Holy Spirit (God) in us but Jesus Christ (God) is also in us!

You are clearly wrong according to the Bible!

[John317]

3. The real problem with the SDA Church is to get people to open their eyes and see what is actually happening to the SDA Church and what has been happening all along. To get people to aware of who they elect and to make such men and women accountable to the pew sitters!

This will not happen of course until the pew sitters stop allowing the "Brethren" to define for them what the Bible does and does not say! The pew sitters need to read the Bible unaided by anything other than the Holy Spirit as it tells us to do in 1Corinthians chapter two!

It sounds like you have objections to the official doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Am I wrong in this understanding? Is this your main objection?

What exactly are you thinking of when you speak of "what is actually happening to the SDA Church and what has been happening all along"?

[John317]

Not only is the Holy Spirit (God) in us but Jesus Christ (God) is also in us!

You are clearly wrong according to the Bible!

You may have misunderstood me. I am saying that God does not dwell in ALL humans. I am not denying that the Holy Spirit lives with or in believers.

The Bible teaches that Christ is personally and actually in heaven with the Father. He is working as our High Priest & mediator in the heavenly sanctuary. (See the books of Daniel, Hebrews, and Revelation.)

Christ sent the Holy Spirit down to the earth to be with the disciples of Christ because Christ Himself can't be everywhere at once. However, the Holy Spirit can be with all of Christ's disciples and followers at the same time. Christ and the Father make their home with us and in us through their personal represenative, the Holy Spirit.

This is what Jesus is teaching in John 14 and 16.

Christ is a man and is still in human flesh. He will always be in human flesh. When he returns the second time, Christ will come as the God-man. See Acts 2: 11.

[miz3]

ClubV12 and John317,

Your claims of ignorance concerning what Sky and I are advocating is not nice and it is not working. Everyone reading these posts can see that you are dancing and that you offer no real truth.

John317 claims in post #460809 of this thread that there are only two alternatives. Yet Sky and I have offered an other alternative. This not being honest John 317 and is a debating tactic in which you ignore the clear plain statements of your opponent.

I do not view this as a debate John317. I think it is vital that the truth be known. For you to state that their are only two alternatives when you know right well that sky and I have been offering other alternatives that could very well be the case!

I thought that SDA were supposed to be honest and just defend their Church at any cost including commit sin. Maybe I was wrong in this belief.

[John317]

John317 claims in post #460809 of this thread that there are only two alternatives. Yet Sky and I have offered an other alternative.

You mean this?

Originally Posted By: miz3

She was growing in her knowledge of God just as others were also and that God gave her inspired messages to fit certain current issues. However God never did give her comprehensive messages across the entire spectrum of spiritual knowledge.

How then do you account for what Ellen White wrote in the quotes on post#460908 ?

[ClubV12]

So,,, what do you recommend we do about this miz3? What action(s) do you propose? What do the people of God need to do with the GC "management"? Revolution? Throw the bums out? Take over the church? What???

[John317]

I do not view this as a debate John317. I think it is vital that the truth be known.

All my posts are conversations and exchanges with people. That is how I view them. I don't see any of the discussions I take part in as "debates." If I did, I wouldn't spend another moment on the Forum. I talk to people on the Forum just the same as if we were together in the same room having a conversation over dinner or just sitting out on the front porch.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is vital that the truth be known. That is the purpose of this discussion.

[miz3]

"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

Romans 8:10.

Not only is the Holy Spirit (God) in us but Jesus Christ (God) is also in us!

John317 the Bible here states that Jesus Christ is in us! No qualifications no if ands or buts!

This also shows that Kellogg was correct that God is in His creation living in them.

[John317]

1. Kellogg was not an evolutionist when he wrote the Living Temple! His evolutionary ideas came well after 1907 when he was away from SDA influence and under the influence of evil philosophies.

The evidence shows that it was his own ideas that led him to eventually accept evolutionary theory.

There is nothing in his ideas in Living Temple that oppose evolutionary theory. If you believe there is, what are they?

Originally Posted By: miz

If he had not been expelled from the SDA Church I doubt Dr. Kellogg would have wondered away into evolution. Thus the SDA Church bears some blame for his fall.

I agree that there are individuals in the church who did bear blame for some of Dr. Kellogg's problems and eventual apostasy. Those individuals should have been more loving and forgiving toward him, and there were people who should have been helping him more during the 1890s. One cannot help but see this in the letters of Ellen White about Kellogg's problems. I don't think anyone denies this. But that is different from the SDA Church as a whole bearing the blame.

No one who knows the facts in the case can possibly blame Ellen White for what happened. She always treated him, and loved him, like a son. If Kellogg had followed Ellen White's counsels--- which anyone can read in her letters to him--- he would never have left the church or fallen into apostasy.

[John317]

"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

Romans 8:10.

Not only is the Holy Spirit (God) in us but Jesus Christ (God) is also in us!

John317 the Bible here states that Jesus Christ is in us! No qualifications no if ands or buts!

This also shows that Kellogg was correct that God is in His creation living in them.

The Bible does not teach that Jesus Christ personally dwells in believers. It teaches that Christ dwells in us through His representative, the Third Person of the Godhead.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

NOTE: It was expedient for them that Jesus go to heaven because the Holy Spirit could only descend after Jesus was in heaven. As a human being, Jesus could not be everywhere at once, with all of the believers at one time, but the Holy Spirit could be.

Both the Gospels and the book of Acts show that Christ is a glorified human being. He is the God-man, still living in a human body. He was raised physically from the grave. He is not a spirit but a real man with a physical body. As such, Christ cannot personally live with or in each one of us.

Look carefully at the following verses:

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he showed them [his] hands and [his] feet.

24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

24:43 And he took [it], and did eat before them.

[miz3]

No one who knows the facts in the case can possibly blame Ellen White for what happened. She always treated him, and loved him, like a son. If Kellogg had followed Ellen White's counsels--- which anyone can read in her letters to him--- he would never have left the church or fallen into apostasy.

I never ever in any post blamed Ellen White. I have raised the real possibility that some of those around her including Willie White her son, may have (not proved) tampered with the Testimonies and in addition allied themselves in such a way as to bring down Dr. Kellogg.

I never ever said that Ellen White herself was implicated in any way in the greed and power hunger or aided knowingly in any way the greedy and power hungry.

[ClubV12]

I guess that could be said of A.T. Jones as well as Kellogg and a HOST of others. And surely those with blood on their hands will have to pay.

BUT!!!!! Consider the case of William Miller. He was laid in his grave because men were starting to influence him on an incorrect path. He was taken before that had a chance to take place, while he was still living and honest with the light he had. God did that to save him from himself!

He could do the same, and perhaps has many times over, with anyone. So why not Jones or Kellogg or any number of other early SDA's who lost their way? Theres more to this than someone just leading them astray. They had great light, rejected it, set the course in such a way they CHOSE to be led astray. Those who led incorrectly will still suffer for their crime, on one way or the other, but in the end, the individual makes his own choice. God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our threashold, to stop it, He may, like Miller, take some very drastic action.

[miz3]

The evidence shows that it was his own ideas that led him to eventually accept evolutionary theory.

I have read some things that show that when JH Kellogg left the SDA Church he was exposed to many whose views were clearly Godless and evolutionary. Thus, without the exposure of Godliness that he could have had "within" the Church he was swayed by these Godless opinions.

This is not an uncommon story! Most people when they leave the support of Godly influences metastasize into Godlessness.

In Kellogg's case he was forced out and told he was no longer welcome in the warmth of God's Love. Under such cold and harsh treatment the outcome could be easily predicted!

No it was not his own leadings that made him evolutionary but it was the influences that constantly surrounded him once he was kicked out of SDA Church!

[ClubV12]

I will not loose any sleep over Kellogg, like all of us, he made choices with full knowledge of what was at stake. What will he defense be? Not my fault, he might declare, "they" those bad men, they made me do it. No, we make our own choices in the end, no one but us is responsible.

Your making a choice right now miz3, you can believe the prophet or condem her. In the end, there will no excuses for your choice, you will stand alone. If she is of man, no problem for you, but if she is from God, big problem for you. Perhaps, you should consider more carefully your position...

[miz3]

There is nothing in his ideas in Living Temple that oppose evolutionary theory. If you believe there is, what are they?

"When autumn comes, each tree, each shrub, each tiny

plantlet, brings its store of garnered energy in ripened seed,

in fruit, or nut, — a little bundle of life deftly wrapped and

sealed, carefully prepared to serve its purpose in the economy

of the world. Think of the energy represented in all the

acorns, all the wheat, all the corn, and all the nuts and seeds

which ripen in the sunlight of the late summer and early

autumn days! Each grain of corn planted in the springtime

has been multiplied to several hundred grains. The fanner

may carry his seed com to the field in a bag upon his shoulder,

but horses and wagons are needed to carry back the harvest

in the fall. Think of it! each pound of com increased to

two, three, or four hundred, or even a thousand pounds.^

Whence comes this enormous, never-ceasing, inexhaustible

stream of energy flowing into the world through the medium

of the vegetable kingdom? This is a question which phi-

losophy has sought in vain to fathom. But the mystery is

not so gjeat as human philosophy has taught us. The real mystery is not in the fact, but is the outgrowth of false rea-

soning, incorrect hypotheses, false premises, — the attempt to

make facts conform to human theories, instead of accepting

the plain, simple teachings of nature and the Word of God.

Life Not a Blind Force.

Let us note that the operations of life are not blind, aim-

less, confused, uncertain, or indefinite, but uniform, logical,

intelligent, sensible. When one looks into the processes of

nature, he is at once impressed with the infinite common

sense displayed; he recognizes an intelligence, a sense of

fitness, of proportion, of adaptation, which is like his own.

He sees that the intelligence manifested in the activities of

living things is akin to human intelligence. Let us notice a

few illustrations.

Divinely Instructed Builders.

Consider, for example, the marvelous ingenuity shown by

animals and birds of various species in the construction of

their homes. What wonderful wisdom is displayed by the

oriole, and other birds, in the selection of suitable locations

for their nests! What astonishing dexterity is exhibited in

weaving together the various materials employed in their con-

struction! Note the wonderful mechanical skill of the bee

in the formation of the cells in which it stores its sweet treas-

ures. Observe the mechanical skill of the mole, the muskrat,

the beaver, and the various other builders of the woods and

fields.

Wonderful Animal Intelligence.

How universal is the divinely implanted instinct of mother

love. The most timid bird becomes marvelously courageous

and fearless in defense of the little hatchlings in her nest."

Living Temple pages 18-20.

I think this should answer your question about the Source Kellogg gives credit for these miracles. This Source is mentioned throughout the Living Temple.

[miz3]

The Bible does not teach that Jesus Christ personally dwells in believers. It teaches that Christ dwells in us through His representative, the Third Person of the Godhead.

That is not what the text says. You are surmising things the text does not say.

Look at the text again.

"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

Romans 8:10

This text says nothing about the Holy Spirit. It does say something about our humans spirit. The text also states that Jesus Christ is humanity! It is a very direct statement.

The last time I looked Romans 8:10 was part of the Bible! As such it makes an unequivocal statement that "Christ is in you"!

You are trying to change the Word of God!

[ClubV12]

Whew, I almost started to read that trash and decided to check the bottom to see where it was being quoted from. I'll pass, don't even want to see it....

[miz3]

I will not loose any sleep over Kellogg, like all of us, he made choices with full knowledge of what was at stake. What will he defense be? Not my fault, he might declare, "they" those bad men, they made me do it. No, we make our own choices in the end, no one but us is responsible.

Your making a choice right now miz3, you can believe the prophet or condem her. In the end, there will no excuses for your choice, you will stand alone. If she is of man, no problem for you, but if she is from God, big problem for you. Perhaps, you should consider more carefully your position...

What we are saying is that Kellogg is not a pantheist. Kellogg was treated by evil greedy power hungry men. Thus, we know these evil, greedy, power hungry men have done wrong and are accountable for their sin.

Kellogg is the victim in this case. However, JH Kellogg is also responsible for any sins he did in this or any other instance! No one is claiming that Kellogg will be in heaven. In fact we don't know any of that for any of the characters involved in this tragedy. God will make that decision.

That does not change the fact that the SDA Church because of what it's leaders have done is accountable and as such need to confront their sin even if it is hundred years ago.

You keep saying I am attacking the Prophet, Ellen White. I am and have never ever attacked her. What you assert in this vein is not True!

You can say you don't agree with my views on the Prophet that is legitimate, but you are not being truthful if you keep saying that I ATTACK THE PROPHET!

I DO NOT ATTACK ELLEN WHITE!

[cheddar]

HaHa....Dr Kellogg went crazy because he followed the healh message too strictly.

He should have gone to Outback and ordered a bloomin onion and a nice juicy ribeye with a loaded baked potato and then washed it all down with some nice cold beer!

Nuts and berries is a diet for birds! LOLZ

[ClubV12]

miz3, you claim Ellen Whites writings as it concerns Kellogg were her own opinion inspired not by God but by evil men (ie, the devil). Many other parts of Ellen Whites work you dismiss as her own opinion.

Be true to thine ownself, there is no point in pretending with me, that is of no consequence to me. But be true to yourself, your words are very much an attack on Ellen White. An attack on the SDA church. Of this, there is no question. You only decieve yourself on these points. Come home miz3, turn from this before it is to late.

[miz3]

Whew, I almost started to read that trash and decided to check the bottom to see where it was being quoted from. I'll pass, don't even want to see it....

Come on ClubV12 you can tell us. You actually read the whole passage from the Living Temple, didn't you?

You found out that JH Kellogg was not a pantheist, or tended toward pantheism. I'll bet you actually found you agree with every word Kellogg wrote, didn't you?

Come on ClubV12 admit it you read the whole passage!

Be honest with us!

[ClubV12]

Honest, I glanced through it, got suspicious, checked the source and moved on! Don't even want to read it, sorry it was even posted. In fact, I'd recommend you delete it, on the advice of Ellen White.

...maybe John can delete it, it would be a service to the community to put that garbage in the trash can.

[John317]

No one who knows the facts in the case can possibly blame Ellen White for what happened. She always treated him, and loved him, like a son. If Kellogg had followed Ellen White's counsels--- which anyone can read in her letters to him--- he would never have left the church or fallen into apostasy.

Originally Posted By: miz3

I never ever in any post blamed Ellen White. I have raised the real possibility that some of those around her including Willie White her son, may have (not proved) tampered with the Testimonies and in addition allied themselves in such a way as to bring down Dr. Kellogg.

Can you show which Testimonies those people, including her own son, tampered or changed?

What do you believe they made her writings say that Ellen White didn't intend to say?

And how could this have happened without Ellen White's knowing it, since she always read her own testimonies?

This seems to me a lot of blame to cast on someone without any proof. As a matter of fact, though, you don't even have any valid evidence of it except for your suspicions. Isn't that true?

Please notice how often she wrote that the Lord told her to write what she did about the Living Temple. I can't see how she would have written this if it wasn't true.