Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 I'm also puzzled as to how EGW, having been shown the truth about the private lives of so many, could have been duped. This just doesn't add up. Good point. In fact, she wrote that it was revealed to her that her son Willie would be a good, dependable help to her. During Ellen White's life, God revealed to her when employees were dishonest and should be let go. That being the case, how can we believe that God gave messages to Ellen White and then failed to warn her of people who were making up letters or testimonies in her name? Ellen White always read the Testimonies and articles that were published. It is inconceivable that Ellen White didn't know all those things were being written. And knowing Ellen White as I do (through her own writings, but also through talking with people who knew her personally), I find it utterly impossible to believe that she was part of a conspiracy to write Testimonies and letters under false pretenses. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 Can God be separated from His Power as if His power is some sort of separate entity? If that is so then God's power is and has been "derived" from something else! The things in nature are God's servants and agents. God works through them, and they are manifestation of God, but they are not God Himself. This is where Kellogg went wrong. He believed that God Himself was really, actually, and personally, in all of life-- in the trees, in flowers, in the water, in the wind, in cells, and in the food we eat. What's sad and tragic about all this is that Dr. Kellogg ultimately was led by his belief system to reject the Bible as the Inspired word of God. This is exactly what Ellen White in all her letters was trying to save him from. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 Something to think about: Quote: Perilous times are before us. Everyone who has a knowledge of the truth should awake and place himself, body, soul, and spirit, under the discipline of God. The enemy is on our track. We must be wide awake, on our guard against him. We must put on the whole armor of God. We must follow the directions given through the spirit of prophecy. We must love and obey the truth for this time. This will save us from accepting strong delusions. God has spoken to us through His word. He has spoken to us through the testimonies to the church and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy. The warnings that have been given, line upon line, precept upon precept, should be heeded. If we disregard them, what excuse can we offer? {8T 298.1} John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. That is how you understood it, "a manifestation" but the Lord says, "the manifestation of God Himself." Who do we believe? ourselves or God? All life is a manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life. That is different from saying that God Himself is in the trees and in the flowers and in every human being. Ellen White wrote: Quote: God's handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature. The things of nature are an expression of God's character and power; but we are not to regard nature as God. {MH 413.2} There's an important distinction between "life being the manifestation or expression of God Himself" and "nature being the actual presence of God Himself." Ellen White taught the former; Dr. Kellogg taught the latter. Can you see this difference? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 John, you propose to tell us what God means when He says, "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life," that it does not mean "God Himself" but something else than God Himself? This is only human supposition, private interpretation. The truth is that "By His Spirit God is everywhere present." Education,132. The Spirit is God Himself working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will. And even if someone says that "the manifestation of God Himself" means "a manifestation of the power of God," the testimonies clearly tell us that "the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God." This has been shown again and again on this forum. Seems to me truth is being rejected here and it won't be the first time or the last time. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present." Education,132. By His Spirit God is everywhere present. Who is everywhere present? God. Not just some impersonal force or energy but God through the Spirit, God's immediate Agency. Do you deny that the Spirit is God? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 Now this one: "We have a physiological proof of the existence within the body of some power superior to the material composition or substance of the body, which exercises a constant supervision and control whereby individual identity is maintained. This can be nothing less than the Power which builds, which creates,-- it is God himself, the divine Presence in the temple." (LT 52) In what is this any different than what Mrs. White says here in 1 S.M.294: "The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God: but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath follows breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God. 'Ye are God's building.' In God we live and move and have our being.'" What's the difference? Do you see a difference between our living in God and God's living in us? Kellogg teaches here that it is God himself in the body, whereas Ellen White is saying that God supervises the operation of our entire being. Kellogg is saying God Himself is actually and truly in our body. Mrs. White says we are under God's supervision. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Now this one: "We have a physiological proof of the existence within the body of some power superior to the material composition or substance of the body, which exercises a constant supervision and control whereby individual identity is maintained. This can be nothing less than the Power which builds, which creates,-- it is God himself, the divine Presence in the temple." (LT 52) In what is this any different than what Mrs. White says here in 1 S.M.294: "The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God: but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath follows breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God. 'Ye are God's building.' In God we live and move and have our being.'" What's the difference? Do you see a difference between our living in God and God's living in us? Kellogg teaches here that it is God himself in the body, whereas Ellen White is saying that God supervises the operation of our entire being. Kellogg is saying God Himself is actually and truly in our body. Mrs. White says we are under God's supervision. John, ,it simply means that by the Spirit God is supervising the entire being. What is so difficult about believing that? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment." Education, 198. We cannot live by His life unless His life is in us. "Not only is He the Originator of all but He is the life of everything that lives." Idem,197. The simple faith of a little child accepts this without trying to reason it out especially when one statement explains another. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Administrators Gail Posted July 13, 2011 Administrators Posted July 13, 2011 A manifestation is not the actual thing... it's a manifestation! It is how it shows itself. Like... A red rash is a manifestion of measles. You get the actual measles through sneezing or drinking through a glass that a measley person has used, but the red rash is not measles (the actual disease). It is proof that it is there, a symptom; it is only how the disease shows itself. Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "In God we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. In God, not outside of God, or by some power outside of God. Just believe it because God says so. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 A manifestation is not the actual thing... it's a manifestation! It is how it shows itself. Like... A red rash is a manifestion of measles. You get the actual measles through sneezing or drinking through a glass that a measley person has used, but the red rash is not measles (the actual disease). It is proof that it is there, a symptom; it is only how the disease shows itself. Gail, how can one have that red rash if he is not infected by the measles itself? "Life is the manifestation of God Himself." Wherever there is life, there is God for "He is the life of everything that lives." Education,197. I wonder who is not believing the testimonies here!!!! sky :) "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. In Him, in Christ, through the Spirit, not outside of Him, but in Him. Believe it because He says so. That is faith. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "Without the life of God nature would die." E.G. White, B.C.Vol.1, p.1081. Can we separate the life of God from "God Himself," the Spirit of life? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Believing some of the Testimonies, or all of them? 90%? 95%? Pick and choose? Where do you draw the line? We could post hundreds if not thousands of true EGW quotes, read them in a balanced way, understand and agree on them. But what about that 5% we reject? What do we do with that? Personally I have yet to find a concrete example of an EGW quote that is clearly "her own opinion". In this case of Kellogg it's an extra ordinary leap to declare her testimony is not inspired. The weight of evidence is just to compelling.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 "The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present." Education,132. By His Spirit God is everywhere present. Who is everywhere present? God. Not just some impersonal force or energy but God through the Spirit, God's immediate Agency. Yes, through the Holy Spirit, the Father and Christ are able to be wherever they want to be. That is the meaning of Omnipresence. Originally Posted By: sky Do you deny that the Spirit is God? This has been answered directly many times already. The issue is not whether the Holy Spirit is God. Yes, the Holy Spirit is all the fullness of the Godhead, just as are the other two persons of the Godhead. Quote: -Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {CG 46.1} Quote: The greatness of God is to us incomprehensible. "The Lord's throne is in heaven" (Psalm 11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of, and a personal interest in, all the works of His hand. . . . {FLB 54.2} It was the Maker of all things . . . who created the human soul, with its capacity for knowing and for loving. And He is not in Himself such as to leave the demands of the soul unsatisfied. No intangible principle, no impersonal essence or mere abstraction, can satisfy the needs and longings of human beings in this life of struggle with sin and sorrow and pain. It is not enough to believe in law and force, in things that have no pity, and never hear the cry for help. We need to know of an almighty arm that will hold us up, of an infinite Friend that pities us. We need to clasp a hand that is warm, to trust in a heart full of tenderness. And even so God has in His Word revealed Himself. {FLB 54.3} Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. The carnal mind cannot comprehend these mysteries. . . . The worldly-wise have attempted to explain upon scientific principles the influence of the Spirit of God upon the heart. The least advance in this direction will lead the soul into the mazes of skepticism. The religion of the Bible is simply the mystery of godliness; no human mind can fully understand it, and it is utterly incomprehensible to the unregenerate heart. {FLB 54.4} The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them; but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {FLB 54.5} John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, 100. Notice the "P" The Presence that pervades all created things is an intelligent Presence and only the Spirit, the mind of God, qualifies. This is the truth. "I was called upon to rebuke those who were presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, and similar errors." 8 T 293. If Kellogg was presenting the doctrine of an impersonal God pervading all nature, he could not have been teaching that God Himself is, by the Spirit, present in everything. He would have been teaching that the power that upholds all things is a mere impersonal essence, a mere actuating energy, and call that God. But we believe in a personal God who, by His Spirit, is everywhere present, working in and through all. The Spirit is no impersonal essence. The Spirit is God just as the Father is and just as Christ is. The Spirit is the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will. The earth is to be lightened with this precious light. "For those who receive the light of the life of Christ, nature is again illuminated." 8 T 325. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 "Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch." John317: And that is why God and Christ through the Spirit are in nature and in man bearing the curse for no thing in the universe can bear the curse and still live and the curse is everywhere on this earth. If it were not for the actual presence of Christ by the Spirit, everything would die. "Without the life of God nature would die." 1 B.C.1081. It is the same with fallen men. "The greatest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us." D.A.328,9. Why are we not crushed? Because God is there by His Spirit bearing this burden in us. This is the larger picture of the cross of Christ. This calls for the allegiance to God and an appreciation of the great work that He is doing for each and everyone of us to keep us alive, sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Quoted by John317: "The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them; but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {FLB 54.5} _____________________ As far as I know no one here has been trying to explain the nature of the Holy Spirit. We are only considering what is revealed. What is revealed is that He is God in the fullest sense and that He is "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." We are told that "the Lord's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present." From these statements and from Scriptures such as Psalm 139:7 we may know and teach that God by His Spirit is everywhere present, moving in all things according to His will. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 One of the founadtional problem with this issue is the belief that the GC apostized as a result of the 1888 message. Because of this apostasy, the "evil GC" men improperly influenced Ellen White against Kellogg. I've studied the 1888 message myself and I have not reached the conclusion some have. That the GC was and remains in apostasy, that is not true. But carrying that thought forward, that they are in apostasy, results in the belief that today the SDA church is no longer the "object of His supreme" affection. This is one aspect of "off shoot" movements. Fundamentally, believing the church failed, apostized, was abandoned of God as a result of 1888 is what is driving the rejection of the Testimony by EGW on Kellogg. Serious accusations have been made that EGW was influenced to write what she did by "man", not God. But thats just the "manifestation" of an even more serious belief. The disease itself, as Gail might say, is that the SDA church is no longer favored of God and we should abandon it. For what, I don't know, and I HAVE asked specifically THAT question of some. I am convinced this is the true message being carried forward by some on this web site. It is subtle, delivered in the name of the Lord and backed up with excellent EGW quotes and a sincere spirit. I believe it, like Kellogg, carries a lot of danger for many will be decieved by this concept.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Club, you know better than that, don't you? As far as I am concerned, you know that I have made it clear, time and time again, even as against the CSDA, that we are living in the time of "added probation" for the church. See C.O.L.218. During this time we are urged to receive the precious light of truth. "The only remedy is belief in the truth, acceptance of the light." T.M.91. This is the second and last call (first call was between 1888 and 1903) to the church. If rejected, the church will seal her rejection of God's mercy just as the Jewish church did in A.D.34 by rejecting the message brought to her by the power of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost and by persecuting the bearers of the message. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 When God Himself says that "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men," and when He Himself declares that "The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods, makes me afraid and ought to cause fear," we are supposed to brush these statements aside as though they were the figments of some man's imagination? God Himself has also told us that this apostasy would wax stronger and stronger until Christ comes in the clouds of heaven. We are not even scratching the surface here. It is because of statements like these that I fear that these men have resorted to fraud and guile in order to put the breaks on anyone who should question their usurped authority, even if it meant forging or falsifying the testimonies, just as we have been warned. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 It is because of statements like these that I fear that these men have resorted to fraud and guile in order to put the breaks on anyone who should question their usurped authority, even if it meant forging or falsifying the testimonies, just as we have been warned. sky "...even if it meant forging or falsifying the testimonies," Well, there is the heart of the matter. I don't believe the Testimony of Ellen White was forged or falsified or influenced by GC leaders or anyone else. I believe it is a direct revelation to the Lords messenger, inspired counsel on the subject of Kellogg. Some don't, for various reasons.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I did not say that Ellen White forged testimonies but that the leading men under Satan's dictation may have in order to put the breaks on anyone whom they could not bring under their control. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
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