WAS JOHN HARVEY KELLOGG A PANTHEIST?

[ClubV12]

miz3, let me ask you what I have asked of others who believe the church is in apostasy.

What should we do about it? SOME have gone so far as to asked to have their membership removed! Some have started off shoot movements. What do you think we should do? Join another church? Go straight to "home churches"? Stop attending church? What?

Which Ellen White books should we burn first? The Testimonies? Desire of Ages? Where does it stop, where does it begin?

Puhleasse, not the typical hiding behind scripture answers, we all know them. Real world answers, solutions. More prayer, yeah, OK, that too. Now back to reality...

[miz3]

ClubV12,

You cannot even handle your own confused fantasy world. How in the world can you at this point handle the reality!

I will not waste my advice on you because you would not heed it anyway!

You think it is not possible for humans to corrupt or have corrupted the "Testimonies". Until you look at the Bible and see that every corporate entity even those called by God are corrupted and fail their mission there is no point in trying to advise you.

God's real People a Spiritual Church. Not built by human hands nor do they operate by human devisings or by human leadings. These people wherever they are "know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent" (John 17:3).

You are looking for and expecting some pristine SDA Church that will fit perfection after the "badies" are "shaken" out. I hate to tell you this but the SDA Church has already been shaken many times and as a corporate structure remains full of corruption. The SDA Church will never ever be pristine!

I am stopping I have already said more than you can handle. You probably rejected everything almost from the start!

[ClubV12]

Thats a cop out miz3. You attack the prophet and the church but cannot give a reason for your faith. A foundation of sand...

God is still leading His church, even though some think it failed in 1888 and is still fallen today, it is not.

Tearing it down is not the answer, what IS the answer miz3?

I've asked this question many times with PM or on other web sites. People love to attack, but when pressed for ideas there seem to be only two options. Leave the church or start an offshoot. Surely there is a balance, all this energy to attack and denigrate but no plan to do anything to address the issue? Foundations of sand...

[miz3]

No cop out!

I know my faith!

My faith is in God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, and the Bible which is God's Word. I belong to Jesus Christ and to God because the Bible says so!

Your faith is in some organization just as the Jews believed in their organization and the Temple! Where is that "organization" now? It is kaput!

The Apostolic Church where is it now? It is kaput!

The Reformation Churches did they fulfill God's mission? NO! kaput!

In the Bible who is the Rock?

Is it the Jewish Nation? Is it the Apostolic Church (RCC think so)? Is it the Reformation Churches? Is it the Seventh Day Adventist Church?

No ClubV12, it is none of these entities!

The Bible states that Jesus Christ is the Rock! That means individual Faith must be built on that Rock!

Not built on those corporate entities!

You erroneously believe in "corporate salvation" or you would not say the things you do.

However, the Bible does not teach "corporate salvation" it teaches "individual Salvation"!

Since you believe in "corporate salvation" then you live or die by what that corporate entity does. If the corporate entity is righteous then you are righteous. If the corporate entity is evil and lost then you are lost!

Is that the sand you want to build your spiritual house on?

Not me! I will build on Jesus Christ the True Rock. SDA is not the rock, it is sand!

However, ClubV12 you can build on whatever you want. I will build on Jesus Christ!

[John317]

Here's how Ellen White explains the working of God through the laws of nature:

Quote:

In dwelling upon the laws of matter and the laws of nature, many lose sight of, if they do not deny, the continual and direct agency of God. They convey the idea that nature acts independently of God, having in and of itself its own limits and its own powers wherewith to work. In their minds there is a marked distinction between the natural and the supernatural. The natural is ascribed to ordinary causes, unconnected with the power of God. Vital power is attributed to matter, and nature is made a deity. It is supposed that matter is placed in certain relations and left to act from fixed laws with which God Himself cannot interfere; that nature is endowed with certain properties and placed subject to laws, and is then left to itself to obey these laws and perform the work originally commanded. {8T 259.2}

This is false science; there is nothing in the word of God to sustain it. God does not annul His laws, but He is continually working through them, using them as His instruments. They are not self-working. God is perpetually at work in nature. She is His servant, directed as He pleases. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a being who moves in all His works according to His will. It is not by an original power inherent in nature that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of infinite power is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power momentarily exercised that keeps it in position in its rotation. {8T 259.3}

The God of heaven is constantly at work. It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears and every flower blooms. Every drop of rain or flake of snow, every spire of grass, every leaf and flower and shrub, testifies of God. These little things so common around us teach the lesson that nothing is beneath the notice of the infinite God, nothing is too small for His attention. {8T 260.1}

The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. Every breath, every throb of the heart, is a continual evidence of the power of an ever-present God. {8T 260.2}

Originally Posted By: skyblue

Here you are quoting the very statements that I have been posting in our previous discussions on this topic which speak of an Intelligence at work in nature, which speak of the Agency of a Being (Spirit) who moves in all things according to His will.

God does not personally dwell in the things of nature. Kellogg says God is personally and actually, truly in the things of nature. You won't find this teaching in the Spirit of prophecy. Dr. Kellogg taught falsely that God is in the flowers, in the trees, in the water, and in the food, etc. No one can feel, smell, or taste God by touching the things of nature or by eating them. Neither the Bible nor Ellen White teach such.

[ClubV12]

Being a member of the church is no gaurentee of anything. Of course we are individually saved. Should we then go our own way? Abandon the church? The widow who tossed her mite into the offering supported her church, as corrupt as it was, and Jesus blessed her for it.

I DO have some ideas on what we can do, outside of leaving the church in one way or another. Do you?

For one, you could do what Edson White did, support himself and carry the gospel to an area that needs it. All the while, supporting, uplifting, encouraging the brethren in the "regular lines of work". Not "trash talking" them, supporting them, with your voice, pen, tithes and like the widow, offerings. Because they ARE Gods chosen people for this time, warts and all! You could home school your kids, get them out of the cities and away from that life. Some will need to go into the cities to work them, don't wait for the "Conference" to provide a way. Go right to work, doing what you can, where your at. Like Paul, making tents in the evening to support yourself in your missionary work. All the while, supporting the church, not tearing it down.

Removing your membership removes your influence. Starting an off shoot will not blessed by God. We must work WITHIN the church, even while at a distance if need be.

But no matter what you do, if you reject the Lords messenger counsel, it will fail.

As for myself, I choose to remain and work closely with my local church, to be in harmony with the brethren. To listen and accept their counsel whenever possible without compromising my own conscience.

[ClubV12]

I'm not looking to man, any man, to compare my lifestyle to theirs. My standard is based on the Testimonies, THIS is the way to live your life. This is not some series of legalistic laws and rules, all though, some may see them as that. The Testimonies offer a detailed view of the christian life, it is the only standard we can compare our lives too.

[John317]

... I understand your concern. Thank you. If you only knew how this has been bothering me, for years, day and night, you would know that I do not take these things lightly. This is the most difficult thing for me to suggest that not all that is said to be from Mrs. White is to be received as such, in regard to A.T. Jones and Dr. Kellogg. It really pains me to think about it.

You may not take them lightly, but you are accepting what you claim is difficult for you, even though it has no basis or foundation. The only evidence for it is that you cannot believe Ellen White wrote the Testimonies and letters to Dr. Kellogg that are in her name. You are doing this because of a "may be." And you entertain that "may be" because you ignore Ellen White's cautions about believing what Dr. Kellogg says about his beliefs on this topic. She says plainly that Dr. Kellogg is deceptive, but you evidently would rather believe that Kellogg was telling the truth and that it was Ellen White or Willie and a lot of other people who were lying.

It pains you to think about it because it is wrong and it is like a goad to your conscience. It also pains you to think about it because you know what it would mean if you really believe it. It would mean either that she was involved in dishonesty and fraud, or else she was incompetant because she didn't even know all those things were written fraudently in her name by her son with the help of a lot of evil people who she foolishly trusted, with evidently no idea of what happened. But given everything we know about her, this would have been impossible. And if it did happen, it would mean Ellen White wasn't trust-worthy.

I'm sure that if you stop thinking those evil thoughts about Ellen White's son and make up your mind that Ellen White wrote those testimonies and letters under the inspiration of God, you will cease to feel bothered by it.

[miz3]

I'm not looking to man, any man, to compare my lifestyle to theirs. My standard is based on the Testimonies, THIS is the way to live your life. This is not some series of legalistic laws and rules, all though, some may see them as that. The Testimonies offer a detailed view of the christian life, it is the only standard we can compare our lives too.

The testimonies as you put them are NOT THE ROCK!

[miz3]

Being a member of the church is no gaurentee of anything. Of course we are individually saved. Should we then go our own way? Abandon the church? The widow who tossed her mite into the offering supported her church, as corrupt as it was, and Jesus blessed her for it.

I DO have some ideas on what we can do, outside of leaving the church in one way or another. Do you?

For one, you could do what Edson White did, support himself and carry the gospel to an area that needs it. All the while, supporting, uplifting, encouraging the brethren in the "regular lines of work". Not "trash talking" them, supporting them, with your voice, pen, tithes and like the widow, offerings. Because they ARE Gods chosen people for this time, warts and all! You could home school your kids, get them out of the cities and away from that life. Some will need to go into the cities to work them, don't wait for the "Conference" to provide a way. Go right to work, doing what you can, where your at. Like Paul, making tents in the evening to support yourself in your missionary work. All the while, supporting the church, not tearing it down.

Removing your membership removes your influence. Starting an off shoot will not blessed by God. We must work WITHIN the church, even while at a distance if need be.

But no matter what you do, if you reject the Lords messenger counsel, it will fail.

As for myself, I choose to remain and work closely with my local church, to be in harmony with the brethren. To listen and accept their counsel whenever possible without compromising my own conscience.

You say one thing about being an individual and then turn right around and demonstrate you are a corporate follower!

1. I agree you could do what Edson White did!

2. You could also do what Jeremiah and Ezekiel did. Man were they trash talkers. Well they were not really the trash talkers God was the trash talker! They however relayed His Messages! Same with John the Baptist! He left the "church" and went into the wilderness!

3. I never said anything about removing ones membership. That is entirely your thing! I claim no part of that it belongs only to you!

At this point in time I will not counsel anyone as to what to do. I can only state the Truth! What others do about that Truth is entirely their business between them and God.

4. I see that you are blind! I don't know whether you are intentionally blind or just naive. Regardless God and you know which one it is and that is the important thing. The fact remains you are blind and until you are willing to see then you will remain blind.

5. You refuse to see the warts and to the extent you can do something about them and to get others to be careful not to be burned as poor JH Kellogg was burned by evil conniving men who were willing to stoop so low as to try and corrupt even the Prophet. In this they have done enormous if not permanent harm to what God has called to be His Instrument!

Unfortunately this same sin of the Kellogg days remains an all to common problem within SDAism! This is why God does not bless us!

[John317]

"God's handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature. The things of nature are an expression of God's character and power; but we are not to regard nature as God. {MH 413.2}

"Life is mysterious and sacred, it is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397.

"Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything."

Considering only the last two statements, it is clear that she is talking about God in nature, the presence of God in nature, that life in nature is the manifestation of God Himself. It is not that nature is God of course but that God is working in nature. How can His presence be in everything and Him not be there? Of course it is by His Spirit that He is there, in nature, moving in all things according to His will. This is what I believe the Bible and the Testimonies to be teaching and this is what I shall teach.

To tell you the truth, I really don't care about what Dr. Kellogg taught. If he taught something different than that, then so be it.

The first statement is somewhat obscure. It does not sound like something Mrs. White would say except for the last part of the sentence, that we are not to regard nature as God. When we compare the first part of that statement "God's handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature" and put that side by side with the other two statements, something is amiss.

What is amiss with these statements from Ellen White:

God's handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature. The things of nature are an expression of God's character and power... MH 413: 2

Notice these points:

1) The things that God has made are not God Himself in nature.

2) The things of nature are an expression of God's character.

3) The things of nature are an expression of God's power.

An "expression" of someone is not their actual Being or Person. But Kellogg says God is actually and truly present in the things God has made. He says God actually dwells in all people.

Notice that Ellen White denies that God is in all human beings. She also denies that God is actually dwelling in things of nature. "God's handiwork in nature IS NOT GOD HIMSELF IN NATURE." The things of nature are EXPRESSIONS of God but not God Himself.

[John317]

Mrs. White has a chapter in the book Education titled "God In Nature" in which she says "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." p.100.

The Presence that pervades all created things! It is a personal presence, not an impersonal presence. In Ministry of Healing,416, she says that it is an intelligent presence or an active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will. It is the presence of God in nature through His immediate Agency: the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is God, then I can appreciate that statement which says that "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397.

But we need to keep in mind Ellen White clear statement that God does not dwell personally in the things of nature. Therefore it is a mistake to understand "pervading all created things" to mean that God personally dwells in the things of nature. So whatever else she says in MH 416, 397, we know that she does not mean God Himself is personally dwelling in the things He has made. That much is absolutely crystal clear.

Something being a manifestation of God Himself is not the same as something being God Himself.

Here is the definition of "manifestation" in the 1828 Webster's Dictionary:

Quote:

MANIFESTATION, n. The act of disclosing what is secret, unseen or obscure; discovery to the eye or to the understanding; the exhibition of any thing by clear evidence; display; as the manifestation of God's power in creation, or of his benevolence in redemption.

The secret manner in which acts of mercy ought to be performed, requires this public manifestation of them at the great day.

How then is "life" a "manifestation of God Himself"?

Originally Posted By: skyblue

Of course, God the Being is not in nature, but God the Spirit is. This is what I believe the Bible and the Tesimonies are teaching. It is only by the Spirit, God's immediate agency, that the Father and Christ can be everywhere present.

Comnpare the following statements with the above quote:

Quote:

Already there are coming in among our people spiritualistic teachings that will undermine the faith of those who give heed to them. The theory that God is an essence pervading all nature is one of Satan's most subtle devices. It misrepresents God and is a dishonor to His greatness and majesty. {8T 291.1}

Pantheistic theories are not sustained by the word of God. The light of His truth shows that these theories are soul-destroying agencies. Darkness is their element, sensuality their sphere. They gratify the natural heart and give license to inclination. Separation from God is the result of accepting them. {8T 291.2}

Our condition through sin has become preternatural, and the power that restores us must be supernatural, else it has no value. There is but one power that can break the hold of evil from the hearts of men, and that is the power of God in Jesus Christ. Only through the blood of the Crucified One is there cleansing from sin. His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. This power the spiritualistic theories concerning God make of no effect. If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power that is within him. {8T 291.3}

These theories, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy.

Notice that Ellen White categorically denies that God dwells in all men, for she says that would only be the case if a false concept were true, namely, that God is an essence pervading all nature.

Here's the definition of "pervade"---

Quote:

PERVADE, v.t. [L. pervado; per and vado, to go; Eng. to wade.]

1. To pass through an aperture, pore or interstice; to permeate; as liquors that pervade the pores.

2. To pass or spread through the whole extent of a thing and into every minute part.

What but God

Pervades, adjusts and agitates the whole?

3. We use this verb in a transitive form to express a passive or an intransitive signification. Thus when we say, "the electric fluid pervades the earth," or "either pervades the universe," we mean only that the fluid is diffused through the earth or universe, or exists in all parts of them. So when we say, "a spirit of conciliation pervades all classes of men," we may mean that such a spirit passes through all classes, or it exists among all classes.

The 1828 Webster's Dictionary defines "essence" in this way:

Quote:

ESSENCE, n. [L. essentia, esse, to be.]

1. That which constitutes the particular nature of a being or substance, or of a genus, and which distinguishes it from all others.

Mr. Locke makes a distinction between nominal essence and real essence. The nominal essence, for example, of gold, is that complex idea expressed by gold; the real essence is the constitution of its insensible parts, on which its properties depend, which is unknown to us.

The essence of God bears no relation to place.

2. Formal existence; that which makes any thing to be what it is; or rather, the peculiar nature of a thing; the very substance; as the essence of christianity.

3. Existence; the quality of being.

I could have resigned my very essence.

4. A being; an existent person; as heavenly essences.

5. Species of being.

6. Constituent substance; as the pure essence of a spirit. [Locke's real essence, supra.]

7. The predominant qualities or virtues of any plant or drug, extracted, refined or rectified from grosser matter; or more strictly, a volatile essential oil; as the essence of mint.

8. Perfume, odor, scent; or the volatile matter constituting perfume.

Nor let th' imprisoned essences exhale.

[John317]

Just who are you ClubV12 to tell Sky anything like you just did? Clearly it is you that can't see the problems that many others have in regards to EGW's writings, as you are now showing your bias mistakenly believe that God was the one behind her visions and writings!

I find this interesting but sad. Dr. Rich likes what Skyblue is saying about Ellen White, naturally. It falls in line with your agenda, which is obviously to tear her down and to tear down the Bible and to ridicule "faith."

Many others might "see" evil in Ellen White's writings like you do, but many others are also wrong. We can't go by what "many others" think or do. We must go by our own personal convictions in regard to Ellen White's visions.

Speaking of bias, it's apparent that you have one. As for myself, I freely confess that I am definitely biased in favor of the whole Bible and in favor of Ellen White's work as a genuine prophet of God.

[John317]

The Bible states that Jesus Christ is the Rock! That means individual Faith must be built on that Rock!

Not built on those corporate entities!

You erroneously believe in "corporate salvation" or you would not say the things you do.

However, the Bible does not teach "corporate salvation" it teaches "individual Salvation"!

Since you believe in "corporate salvation" then you live or die by what that corporate entity does. If the corporate entity is righteous then you are righteous. If the corporate entity is evil and lost then you are lost!

Is that the sand you want to build your spiritual house on?

Not me! I will build on Jesus Christ the True Rock. SDA is not the rock, it is sand!

Of course Christ is the Rock. He always has been. I don't believe anyone is claiming that the SDA church is THE Rock.

Neither is anyone in this discussion claiming that people are saved "corporately." That is an impossibility. Yet Christ is leading out a church, not a lot of scattered individuals who are all doing their own thing. The church is the body of Christ, and the body is not made up of individual parts that distance themselves from the rest of the body in order to do their own thing. No body would be able to function that way.

Acts 2: 47 says, "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

[John317]

John: Kellogg tried to tell us that when we smell a flower, we are smelling God; when we drink water, we are drinking God; and when we eat food, we are tasting God. All this is false.

sky: John, Mrs. White says that "It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, and in the food (food and water) which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength." Education,197,8.

Ellen White states clearly that God does not dwell personally in the things of nature. Kellogg says God does dwell personally and actually, truly, in the things of nature. You have to decide which one of these contradictory viewpoints you will believe.

Do you really believe that God is personally in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air and in the food? Kellogg did believe this, but do you accept his false teaching about this, and reject the words of Ellen White?

[John317]

You have no evidence of this except your conjecture and assumptions. The truth is-- as Ellen White wrote-- that although people often didn't treat Dr. Kellogg very well, yet it was Dr. Kellogg who was dishonest and who was conniving. He was very deceptive. The problem is that you have rejected what Ellen White said and you've accepted the testimony of Dr. Kellogg.

Please read the Introduction to vol 8 of the Testimonies, called "The Times of Volume Eight."

[John317]

...

The testimonies as you put them are NOT THE ROCK!

It isn't how someone put them but how Ellen White referred to them. She often referred to them as "the Testimonies of the Spirit" and as "the Testimonies of Jesus."

But you are quite right that the Testimonies are not the Rock. Christ Himself is. And Christ called Ellen White and chose her as His messenger/ prophet. See 1 SM 32.

She wrote, "When you find men questioning the testimonies, finding fault with them, and seeking to draw away the people from their influence, be assured that God is not at work through them. It is another spirit." 1 SM 45 par. 1. Please read the rest of the paragraph.

[ClubV12]

miz3, If I understand you correctly, you do not support the SDA church in any manner? Do you attend church, at all? Offer support of any kind? Perhaps these questions are to personal and not the publics business, it's OK not to respond.

I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you were a member in good standing, and at least supported the church in offerings and tithe and such. I get the feeling I was wrong...

These are the same questions I have for many posters on this forum, actually. It's obvious quite a few have a good knowledge of Ellen White and the SDA beliefs. But from their general response I wonder, are they actually SDA's? Have they left the church all together? How can one sit through Sabbath school and still deal with these feelings of betrayal and anger toward the church? It's a mystery.

[miz3]

miz3, If I understand you correctly, you do not support the SDA church in any manner? Do you attend church, at all? Offer support of any kind? Perhaps these questions are to personal and not the publics business, it's OK not to respond.

I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that you were a member in good standing, and at least supported the church in offerings and tithe and such. I get the feeling I was wrong...

These are the same questions I have for many posters on this forum, actually. It's obvious quite a few have a good knowledge of Ellen White and the SDA beliefs. But from their general response I wonder, are they actually SDA's? Have they left the church all together? How can one sit through Sabbath school and still deal with these feelings of betrayal and anger toward the church? It's a mystery.

The mystery is how you can sit through Sabbath School and Church each and every Sabbath knowing the dirty issues going on in the Church both locally and on up to the GC!

My personal info is not vital and has no bearing the issue! The vital thing is what does ClubV12 and other SDA do about the garbage that has piled up and continues to pile up right in their own House?

You have already stated that for you, you will ignore the garbage and continue to support the SDA Church as if she were a pristine church. In taking this stand you are aiding abetting those who hurt individuals and also the work of God by their greedy power hungry plans and actions.

[miz3]

Tou have no evidence of this except your conjecture and assumptions. The truth is-- as Ellen White wrote-- that although people often didn't treat Dr. Kellogg very well, yet it was Dr. Kellogg who was dishonest and who was conniving. He was very deceptive. The problem is that you have rejected what Ellen White said and you've accepted the testimony of Dr. Kellogg.

No one is asserting that they have "beyond a shadow of a doubt" evidence. However, there is enough evidence showing that there is enough evidence that greedy power hungry men were out to get JH Kellogg because Kellogg would not give in to their greedy power hungry demands. There is also some snippets of evidence that Willie White and maybe others were sympathetic to the "Brethren" and thus "may" have used their position to "alter" or "manipulate" things in regard to the Testimonies from Ellen White. These snippets are enough to question the validity of such testimonies.

There is enough evidence to suggest these things and there is zero evidence that JH Kellogg was a "pantheist" or "tended toward pantheism".

It is interesting that the Church makes the accusation that the Living Temple is a "pantheistic" type book but then conveniently uses the Prophet to state that we cannot look at the evidence to know for sure.

If Kellogg had admitted that he leaned toward pantheism then it is logical for us to take the stand that reading Kellogg's material is bad! However this is not the case! Kellogg never ever agreed that he even tended toward pantheism. Thus, in order to settle the issue we need to look at the evidence in order to decide if Kellogg is lying or is being truthful.

My own investigation shows me that Kellogg is innocent of the "pantheistic" charges!

Some have then said to me right here on this Forum you disobeyed the Prophet's strict word from God that we are not read to the Living Temple!

In that light I have noticed that you are quite familiar yourself with the book The Living Temple! That can mean only one thing that you have thoroughly disobeyed the Prophet yourself and not just read it but clearly studied it!

How does that square with your strong belief that Ellen White is the Voice of God. That means you have defied the strict Word of God!

[ClubV12]

miz3, thanks for that clairification. I have to assume, from your response, that you do not attend an SDA church and do not support it in any way. Always good to know where people are coming from.

I note that people have asked you in the past if you are a Seventh-day Adventist. You have always carefull avoided answering the question directly. Man up! Don't be afraid to tell it like it is. Your not, thats clear now, thanks. There is no shame in taking a stand and declaring it.

[miz3]

miz3, thanks for that clairification. I have to assume, from your response, that you do not attend an SDA church and do not support it in any way. Always good to know where people are coming from.

I note that people have asked you in the past if you are a Seventh-day Adventist. You have always carefull avoided answering the question directly. Man up! Don't be afraid to tell it like it is. Your not, thats clear now, thanks. There is no shame in taking a stand and declaring it.

The critical issue is not me!

The critical issue is what are going to do about the garbage piling up all around you in the SDA Church?

[ClubV12]

The critical issue is causing confusion with the people of this forum in not understanding whether you are, or aren't, a Seventh-day Adventist.

God is not the author of confusion. Be proud of your position, I would that you were cold or hot.

What ARE you going to do about this garbage problem miz3? What steps have you taken to address the issue?

Can you present to this forum your recommendations? Not to me, the forum. As an out spoken representative of denouncing the SDA church, you owe it to the people to follow through on this. Or, stop fighting against the prophet and the church. But lets be clear on it.

[skyblue888]

"God's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence," "He is everywhere present," "working in and through all" "moving in all things according to His will." Education, p.14,132; M.H.416.

If we do not believe this, then we cannot truly discern the difference between truth and error, between panthestic theories and the Word of God.

sky

[John317]

...

The mystery is how you can sit through Sabbath School and Church each and every Sabbath knowing the dirty issues going on in the Church both locally and on up to the GC!

The vital thing is what does ClubV12 and other SDA do about the garbage that has piled up and continues to pile up right in their own House?

You have already stated that for you, you will ignore the garbage and continue to support the SDA Church as if she were a pristine church.

For one thing, you are mistaken about the situation involving Dr. Kellogg. So your judgment about the church in that case is inccorrect.

For another, Jesus didn't stop going to the synagogue because of wrongs committed by the "church" of His day. Nor does God call SDAs to stop supporting the SDA church because of wrongs that are done or have been done by some SDAs.

We already know that the church is imperfect. It has always been imperfect. People are always imperfect. I am imperfect and you are imperfect. That is what the letter to the Laodicean church is all about.

Have you joined the people who are calling for SDAs to leave the SDA church?

If so, that is directly contrary to God's will as revealed through His last-day prophet.

The real problem with the SDA church is that we don't pay attention to what God has revealed. It isn't that we pay too much attention. Many of us don't pay any attention at all.

Quote:

I will say in the fear and love of God, I know the Lord has thoughts of love and mercy to restore and heal them of all their backslidings. He has a work for His church to do. They are not to be pronounced Babylon, but to be as the salt of the earth, the light of the world. They are to be the living messengers to proclaim a living message in these last days. {2SM 67.2}

I am encouraged and blessed as I realize that the God of Israel is still guiding His people and that He will continue to be with them, even to the end.--2SM 406 (1913). [FROM ELLEN WHITE'S FINAL MESSAGE TO THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH IN GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION. THESE REASSURING WORDS WERE READ TO THE SESSION BY THE GENERAL CONFERENCE PRESIDENT, A. G. DANIELLS, ON MAY 27, 1913.] {LDE 56.3}

The Message to the Laodiceans

God is leading out a people. He has a chosen people, a church on the earth, whom He has made the depositaries of His law. He has committed to them sacred trust and eternal truth to be given to the world. He would reprove and correct them. The message to the Laodiceans is applicable to Seventh-day Adventists who have had great light and have not walked in the light. It is those who have made great profession, but have not kept in step with their Leader, that will be spewed out of His mouth unless they repent. The message to pronounce the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Babylon, and call the people of God out of her, does not come from any heavenly messenger, or any human agent inspired by the Spirit of God. {2SM 66.2}

The True Witness says, "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock; if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne" (Revelation 3:18-21).

{2SM 66, 67}

"I Rebuke and Chasten"

Jesus is coming in to give the individual members of the church the richest blessings, if they will open the door to Him. He does not once call them Babylon, nor ask them to come out. But He says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" (with messages of reproof and warning) (Revelation 3:19). These reproofs I am not ignorant of. I have given warnings because the Spirit of the Lord has constrained me to do so, and have uttered reproofs because the Lord has given me words of reproof. I have not shunned to declare the whole counsel of God, which has been given me for the church. {2SM 67.1}

It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner.--ChS 41 (1893). {LDE 172.1}

Those who have had opportunities to hear and receive of the truth and who have united with the Seventh-day Adventist church, calling themselves the commandment-keeping people of God, and yet possess no more vitality and consecration to God than do the nominal churches, will receive the plagues of God just as verily as the churches who oppose the law of God.--19MR 176 (1898). {LDE 172.2}

The Chaff Separated From the Wheat

Divisions will come in the church. Two parties will be developed. The wheat and tares grow up together for the harvest.--2SM 114 (1896). {LDE 172.3}

There will be a shaking of the sieve. The chaff must in time be separated from the wheat. Because iniquity abounds, the love of many waxes cold. It is the very time when the genuine will be the strongest.--Letter 46, 1887. {LDE 173.1}

The history of the rebellion of Dathan and Abiram is being repeated, and will be repeated till the close of time. Who will be on the Lord's side? Who will be deceived, and in their turn become deceivers? --Letter 15, 1892. {LDE 173.2}

The Lord is soon to come. There must be a refining, winnowing process in every church, for there are among us wicked men who do not love the truth or honor God.--RH March 19, 1895. {LDE 173.3}

We are in the shaking time, the time when everything that can be shaken will be shaken. The Lord will not excuse those who know the truth if they do not in word and deed obey His commands.--6T 332 (1900). {LDE 173.4}

Just as long as you allow pride to dwell in your hearts, so long will you lack power in your work. For years a wrong spirit has been cherished, a spirit of pride, a desire for preeminence. In this Satan is served, and God is dishonored. The Lord calls for a decided reformation. . . . Let [a truly reconverted soul] renew his covenant with God, and God will renew His covenant with him. . . . Let angels and men see that there is forgiveness of sin with God. Extraordinary power from God must take hold of Seventh-day Adventist churches. Reconversion must take place among the members, that as God's witnesses they may testify to the authoritative power of the truth that sanctifies the soul. Renewed, purified, sanctified, the church must be, else the wrath of God will fall upon them with much greater power than upon those who have never professed to be saints. {LHU 301.2}

Those who are sanctified through the truth will show that the truth has worked a reformation in their lives, that it is preparing them for translation into the heavenly world. But as long as pride and envy and evil-surmising predominate in the life, Christ does not rule in the heart. His love is not in the soul. In the lives of those who are partakers of the divine nature there is a crucifixion of the haughty, self-sufficient spirit that leads to self-exaltation. In its place the Spirit of Christ abides, and in the life the fruits of the Spirit appear. Having the mind of Christ, His followers reveal the graces of His character. {LHU 301.3}