WAS JOHN HARVEY KELLOGG A PANTHEIST?

[ClubV12]

Sky says,

"More like W.C. White and the apostate leaders of the G.C. were behind these so-called testimonies or were able to convince Mrs. White, through many lies about Kellogg, that he was a pantheist and a rebel."

Thats amazing, Sky, that would you think Ellen White could have been "influenced by the brethren" to write what she did about Kellogg! Wow, that is a substantial denial of the ability of the Lords messenger to testify truthfully to individuals. That being the case, the next obvious step, is that she was wrong in all of her Testimonies to other individuals. That path leads to total rejection of the prophetess at some point. I'm afraid you are under a grand delusion on this matter, Sky, and it pains me to say that.

[skyblue888]

I understand that Mr. Walton takes a different viewpoint than you do on this topic. He believes what Ellen White wrote about it and therefore believes, as I do, that Dr. Kellogg's book, The Living Temple, teaches dangerous error.

John, I told you before, in other threads, that I met him in person in Alberta, Canada, some years ago. He had a copy of The Living Temple. He told the audience about the pantheism in that book. I waited to see if he would read some passages but it was clear he wasn't going to. So I stood up and asked him to read us some pantheistic passages from the book. His face turned red. He could not. I asked him about Eph.4:6 "God who is above all and through all and in all" and he said, "We are not talking about mollecules here." Can the Spirit of God penetrate mollecules? We are made of atoms and mollecules. Is not the Spirit of God able to pervade the atoms and the mollecules? To argue against that would be to limit the Spirit of God. The Bible clearly says that "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. This is accomplished by the Spirit, the immediate Agency of God. This is what Dr. Kellogg was talking about and the brethren, not having enough spiritual discernment to understand what he was talking about, saw this as a golden opportunity to impeach the man, making him a pantheist for that. Yet the Testimonies speak of the "unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all," or of "the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Education, p.14; Ministry of Healing, 416.

sky

[skyblue888]

Sky says,

"More like W.C. White and the apostate leaders of the G.C. were behind these so-called testimonies or were able to convince Mrs. White, through many lies about Kellogg, that he was a pantheist and a rebel."

Thats amazing, Sky, that would you think Ellen White could have been "influenced by the brethren" to write what she did about Kellogg! Wow, that is a substantial denial of the ability of the Lords messenger to testify truthfully to individuals. That being the case, the next obvious step, is that she was wrong in all of her Testimonies to other individuals. That path leads to total rejection of the prophetess at some point. I'm afraid you are under a grand delusion on this matter, Sky, and it pains me to say that.

Club, you joined this church a few years ago. Obviously you have not had the time to study all of the history of our movement. I suggest you read "An Appeal for Evangelical Christianity" by A.T. Jones. If you want the truth you owe it to yourself to seriously and prayerfully read that whole thread. You will be enabled to see what was really going on with W.C. White and the G.C. leaders.

The Lord gave them the desire of their hearts.

You also must read The Interview between Dr. Kellogg and two members of the General Conference.

Very revealing.

sky

Also check the back and forth discussion between John317 and myself in his thread Friendly Discussion about the Trinity found in What Seventh-day Adventists Believe section.

[ClubV12]

What is "very revealing" and sad to discover here, Sky, is that you are under the delusion that what Ellen White wrote concerning Kellogg was "her own opinion" as a result of being influenced by the brethren.

That is a significant error and as such calls into your question your other positions. Notably, your concern the church leadership is in apostasy.

I do not believe my being a "new" member has anything to do with my ability to discern truth, quite the opposite. I don't carry a lot of preconceived ideas as baggage. Some will have to learn in a few months what it's taken others years to learn. I am confident in what I believe and what I have learned. At the risk of once again sounding boastful, I have consistently found my knowledge at this point is far in excess of the typical SDA member, including those who have been in the church and studied for years.

[skyblue888]

"There is no great Being sitting on the throne in heaven, but God is in all nature."

This is something someone claimed Dr. Kellogg said without giving any reference.

John, you will remember you asking me me where I got this from. I told you from Arthur L. White's book, Ellen White, Woman of Vision, p.437.

"As Elder Daniells took up residence in Battle Creek as the leader of the church following the General Conference of 1901, he found the teachings of pantheism rampant. For year he had been more or less isolated in Australia. He was amazed to hear the talk of God in flowers, in trees, in humankind. The expression was constantly heard: The acorn falls to the ground and a tree springs up. It was argued that one must say there is a tree maker in the tree. It was declared that the Creator, whatever He might be like, was in the things that were made, and some boldly said that there is no great Being sitting on the throne in heaven, but God is in all nature."

To begin with, Elder Daniells was NOT the leader of the church following the 1901 General Conference. The presidency had been eliminated at that Conference. This was part of the reformatory steps taken at that Conference. But sometime in 1902 he assumed the presidency without the Constitution. That has been clearly shown from "An Appeal" by A.T. Jones.

As you can see, Arthur White did not give any reference for Kellogg saying that there is no great Being sitting on the throne in Heaven. It is alledged that he would have made that statement to him in a conversation with him. This is only hearsay. I have been studying this issue for many years and I have yet to see a statement from Dr. Kellogg saying this.

Of course, anyone teaching that there is no Being sitting on the throne in Heaven and at the same time saying that God pervades all of nature, is a pantheist, to be sure. And if this is what Dr. Kellogg really taught, then, yes, he deifed nature.

But "The path of error often appears to lie close to the path of truth... but the mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit may discern that it is divergent from the right way. After a while the two are seen to be widely separated." Testimonies, Vol.8,p.2902,291.

The truth is that the Lord's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit, (unseen, mighty Intelligence) He is working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will.

This is where lies the difference between pantheism and the truth.

When we see the difference, we see that the two are widely separated. Pantheism denies the existence of a personal God and therefore there is no such thing as a place called Heaven and therefore no sanctuary to be cleansed and therefore the advent movement was a hoax. In fact this theory sweeps away the whole Christian economy.

Pantheism teaches that there is no personal God in Heaven, no throne, no Jesus, no sanctuary, and yet "God" pervades all nature!

The truth: There is a throne in Heaven on which sit a personal God the Father, a personal Christ, and there is also the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead by whom God the Father and Christ are everywhere present. We read:

"Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Where shall I flee from Your presence?" Psalm 139:7.

This is what Mrs. White understood and taught and thus she wrote these words:

"Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active energy, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hitherto and I work.'" P.P.114.

"To those who thus acquaint themselves with Christ, the earth will nevermore be a lonely and desolate place. It will be their Father's house, filled with the presence of Him who once dwelt among men." Education, 120.

She wrote these last words immediately following these words:

"Thus may they (children) learn to see Him in tree and vine, in lily and rose, in sun and star. They may learn to hear His voice in the song of birds, in the sighing of the trees, in the rolling thunder, and in the music of the sea." Education, 120.

Thus we read, "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." Education, 100.

Indeed, the difference between pantheistic theories and the truth is quite subtle.

It is true, after all, that there is a tree-maker is the tree because the Spirit of God is active in the tree, in fact, in all created things. It is by the Spirit that all things hold together, that all things exist.

So the Lord's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit, the unseen, mighty Intelligence, He is working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will. (Education, 14; Ministry of Healing, 416-417)

Thus, "Those who have a true knowledge of God will not become so infatuated with the laws of matter or the operations of nature as to overlook or refuse to acknowledge the continual working of God in nature." 1 S.M.293

Therefore, "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." Testimonies, Vol.8, p.325.

So those who have a true knowledge of God believe in a personal God the Father, in a personal Christ, and in the Spirit who is "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Education, 14.

sky

[skyblue888]

Here is another example. A while ago, in a debate as to whether Dr. Kellogg was a pantheist or not, John, you wrote, "The action of His power" is not the same as the presence of God. The "power of God" is not synonymous with the Holy Spirit, although some people, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, understand it that way.

John317

_________________________________

The action of His power is not the same as the presence of God!!! The "power of God" is not synonymous with the Holy Spirit!!!

The Lord thinks otherwise:

"The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." D.A.606.

"The divine Spirit that the world's Redeemer promised to send is the presence and power of God." Signs of the Times, Nov.23, 1891.

I don't know how many times I have quoted these statements to you but what they are saying is very clear. Thy are clearly stating that the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God in all the mysteries that surround us as the Scriptures teach: "Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Where shall I flee from Your presence?" Psalm 139:7.

Last time I checked the Jewhovah's Witnesses were still teaching that the Spirit of God was a mere impersonal force or energy from God, not a Person, not "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all," as the Testimonies are stating. (Education, p.14)

____________________________________________

What's amazing to me is that you evidently cannot see the difference between what Willie and Ellen White said and what Dr. Kellogg taught in The Living Temple.

Acts 17: 28 is not saying that God dwells in all men. It is saying that we live and move because of God, not that God is personally dwelling in every man.

John 317

_______________________________________________

Not just because of God but because God is the life of everything that lives. "Not only is He the Originator of all, but He is the life of everything that lives." Education,197.

What's amazing to me is how anyone fails to see that what Mrs. White is saying is the same as what Dr. kellogg said:

"The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues to work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God." Ministry of Healing, p.417.

She does say "In God we live and move and have our being." And she does say that the beating heart and every nerve and muscle in the living organism are kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. And she does say that the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God. She does say that there are mysteries in the human organism that baffle the most intelligent. She does say that the only key to the mysteries that surround us, especially in the human organism, is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God and she does say that the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God!

If we fail to understand these simple declarations, what can God do to enlighten us? The problem is not about understanding what these statements are saying but accepting them implicitly. Let us make sure that prejudices and opinions do not stand in the way between us and the heaven-sent light.

Dr Kellogg said,

"We have five hundred muscles in the body, and they are all controlled by the will, the mind. When I strike with my hand or beat with my fist, there is a will behind the hand and the fist. My muscles do not act unless there is a command to contract. The thing that is efficient and all essential is the will, it is the commanding power. My arm will contract and cause the fist to beat; but it beats only when my will commands.

But here is a muscle in the body that beats when I am asleep. It beats when my will is inactive and I am utterly unconscious. It keeps on beating all the time. What will is it that causes this heart to beat? The heart can not beat once without a command!

To me it is a most wonderful thing that a man’s heart goes on beating. It does not beat by means of my will; for I can not stop the heart’s beating, or make it beat faster or slower by commanding it by my will. But there is a will that controls the heart. It is the divine will that causes it to beat. In the beating of that heart that you can feel, as you put your hand upon the breast, or as you put your finger against the pulse, we have the evidence of the divine presence that we have within us, that there is an Intelligence, a power, a will within, that is commanding the functions of our bodies and controlling them."

And this is in perfect keeping with the statement I quoted above from Ministry of Healing,p.417 and these ones:

“It is not because the mechanism once set in motion continues to act by its own inherent energy that the pulse beats, and breath follows breath. Every breath, every pulsation of the heart is an evidence of the care of Him in whom we live and move and have our being!” Education, p.131.

"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervison of God. 'You are God's building.' 1 Cor.3:9. In God we live and move and have our being." 1 S.M.294,5.

sky

[John317]

Sounds to me that it is not about pantheism at all. It appears to me that Ellen White is telling JH Kellogg that in order to have peace and harmony that Kellogg should give in to the "brethren".

So it was a power play after all!

The "brethren" were "using" Ellen White to pressure JH Kellogg!

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I agree. More like W.C. White and the apostate leaders of the G.C. were behind these so-called testimonies or were able to convince Mrs. White, through many lies about Kellogg, that he was a pantheist and a rebel. They had to get rid of that man just as they had to get rid of A.T. Jones, and they did.

"All I have to say now is that your way and spirit toward your brethren is not approved by God. He calls for unity. Variance and dissension are not created by the Lord."

To me, these words could not have come from the Lord. How do I know that? Simply because Kellogg was the one who did everything he could possibly do to unite with the brethren. It was the "brethren" of the G.C. who refused to sit down with him. The Lord sent testimonies urging the "brethren" to go to Dr. Kellogg but they ignored these testimonies.

You have apparently gone from believing that Willie White committed fraud in writing things in his mother's name to believing that Ellen White herself wrote fraudalent letters and testimonies under pressure from the "brethren."

If Ellen White wrote those letters and Testimonies under false pretences and if she said things that God had no intention of her writing, then she is not worthy to be accepted as a prophet of God. If I believed what you are saying about her, I would have nothing more to do with her. She would be unreliable. That would be the same as lying. It would be dishonest. You have no reason to say this except for your surmisings and conjectures.

You appear to be saying that you know better than Ellen White. Do you really believe this?

[John317]

sky, could you please post by using the "quote" "quick quote" buttons? :-)

[John317]

Sky says,

"More like W.C. White and the apostate leaders of the G.C. were behind these so-called testimonies or were able to convince Mrs. White, through many lies about Kellogg, that he was a pantheist and a rebel."

Thats amazing, Sky, that would you think Ellen White could have been "influenced by the brethren" to write what she did about Kellogg! Wow, that is a substantial denial of the ability of the Lords messenger to testify truthfully to individuals. That being the case, the next obvious step, is that she was wrong in all of her Testimonies to other individuals. That path leads to total rejection of the prophetess at some point. I'm afraid you are under a grand delusion on this matter, Sky, and it pains me to say that.

Very true. I'm amazed myself, and sadly so.

Read what Ellen White herself said about those who accept "the hook or bait" offered by Dr. Kellogg. That is why she calls the "Alpha" the "dangerous heresy" and warns people against even studying Kellogg's teachings. They won't be able to distinguish between the truth and error. They see no difference, and in time will find reasons to reject what Ellen White wrote in order to hold on to Dr. Kellogg's teachings, even if it means accusing the prophet of God of being dishonest.

[ClubV12]

A theory:

Those are some who believe the church leadership apostized as a result of the rejection of the 1888 message. Others are just skeptical in general of leadership and/or the Lords messenger. Having accepted their position, they place themselves where they are ready to accept what ever concept is introduced that will support their ideas. They will find plenty of hooks upon which to hang their doubts...

They search out and find EGW quotes, which are many, that speak to the low level of piety to be found with the church in general. Or apparent conflicts with the writings. They begin to pick and choose which testimonies they will accept as from the Lord, or the mere ramblings of an old lady influenced by apostate leadership. They find testimony and quotes to support their ideas of the church leadership being in grave error. They make this issue of great concern and a close study. Diet, dress, life style as pious indicators of truth. When clear testimony, such as the case with Kellogg, is presented it becomes a stumbling block, turned into an opportunity to support the idea that the church is doomed.

I'm learning to appreciate those who unashamedly declare Ellen White to be a liar! It is clear where they stand. Of more concern are those who appear to support the prophetess and yet, only up to a certain point. Denying the power of the prophet and making her testimony of no effect in a more subtle way. This later group has much more power to deceive, is much more dangerous. To themselves and to others.

As I am now reading the Testimonies I am finding that the message is well balanced on any given issue. I don't bring some "idea" I'm looking to support when I study. I'm not looking for some "hook" to hang some idea on. I'm just reading it and asking God to help me not only understand it, but to find that balance in the counsel. The same way I would study His word.

I'm not convinced "30 years", or a Ph.D., or much learning of the bible is necessarily a good thing by itself or an indicator of ones acceptance of balanced truth. 1888 is not that complicated when you boil it down and find the balance. It was not the end of Gods church on earth. Which will continue and will go through to the end. If we cannot resolve a century old issue with Kellogg, you have to wonder, what hope is there we will see future dangerous and subtle theories introduced? Virtually none! Rejecting the counsel on Kellogg is a gaurentee one will readily accept the next delusion the evil one has to offer. It's as simple as that, as simple as ABC.

[miz3]

miz3 and other "false sympathizers" will have their hearts hardened, like Pharoah, as a result of these actions. But actually, nothing will have changed. If it were not a Kellogg issue, it would be something else, the end result would be the same. We are either drawing closer together and supporting one another (warts, injustice and all) or we are being drawn farther apart. Decisions will ultimately be made, the individuals choice will become clear in time. With Gods people, or, on the outside looking in, no half way.

1. Apparently to you "Unity" means covering each others sin. To you "Unity" is a physical, political, social, outward, etc. sameness of support and action.

2. The Bible "Unity" is different. The Bible sees "Unity" as a Spiritual Condition which is on the "inward parts" (the HEART). This is achieved ONLY BY THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!

3. In the Holy Spirit's Work toward "Unity" the Holy Spirit does not cover "warts, injustice, and all"! The Holy Spirit actually condemns and destroys these "warts, injustice, and all).

4. You ClubV12 want to cover it up. Thus, you aid and abet the "warts, injustice, and all" in addition you actually help to make this sickness and "false unity" spread more prolifically!

5. This is why it so vital and important to find out the Truth about JH Kellogg and the "Brethren".

6. You and others who want it covered up invoke the "SOP". Could it be that Ellen White was not fully aware of the chicanery that was being played out behind her back? Could it be that elements in Ellen White's own camp were in league with the "Brethren" to play dirty with JH Kellogg? Could it be that Ellen White's own camp would have worked to deceive her on this issue? Could it be that there were elements of Ellen White's own family that were in league with the "Brethren" and as such would actively engage in deceiving Ellen White? Could it be?

7. Such "cover ups" are a "phony unity" whose only source is satan!

[miz3]

John, I told you before, in other threads, that I met him in person in Alberta, Canada, some years ago. He had a copy of The Living Temple. He told the audience about the pantheism in that book. I waited to see if he would read some passages but it was clear he wasn't going to. So I stood up and asked him to read us some pantheistic passages from the book. His face turned red. He could not. I asked him about Eph.4:6 "God who is above all and through all and in all" and he said, "We are not talking about mollecules here." Can the Spirit of God penetrate mollecules? We are made of atoms and mollecules. Is not the Spirit of God able to pervade the atoms and the mollecules? To argue against that would be to limit the Spirit of God. The Bible clearly says that "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. This is accomplished by the Spirit, the immediate Agency of God. This is what Dr. Kellogg was talking about and the brethren, not having enough spiritual discernment to understand what he was talking about, saw this as a golden opportunity to impeach the man, making him a pantheist for that. Yet the Testimonies speak of the "unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all," or of "the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." Education, p.14; Ministry of Healing, 416.

Great points sky!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I understand that Mr. Walton takes a different viewpoint than you do on this topic. He believes what Ellen White wrote about it and therefore believes, as I do, that Dr. Kellogg's book, The Living Temple, teaches dangerous error.

John, I told you before, in other threads, that I met him in person in Alberta, Canada, some years ago. He had a copy of The Living Temple. He told the audience about the pantheism in that book. I waited to see if he would read some passages but it was clear he wasn't going to. So I stood up and asked him to read us some pantheistic passages from the book. His face turned red. He could not.

I've met him before too. He lives in California and comes down to Southern California from time to time to visit various churches. I met him and heard him speak on Sabbath in the Mentone SDA church.

I know it wasn't that Mr. Walton could not read some passages from The Living Temple. Of course he could have, but he didn't choose to. I wouldn't read them in public and in a church, either. That is doing exactly what Ellen White says we ought not to do. Why would anyone who is following Ellen White's counsel choose to read Dr. Kellogg's book before a congregation? That would be wrong.

I am sure his face was red out of shame for you because you were trying to goad him in to doing something that he knew would be wrong. Mr. Walton is a practicing attorney. I doubt very much that his face was red because he didn't know how to read. His books are very well written and contain excellent documentation.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

He said that God is in the trees, in food, in water, in boots, etc. He said when we taste food, we are tasting God; and when we smell a flower, we are smelling God. He meant this in the literal sense. All this is false.

OK John317 where in the "Living Temple" (give pages) does Kellogg say these things?

Surely you can give me the pages where Kellogg made his offending remarks.

Here are some examples of Kellogg's views:

Kellogg said, "God is actually within us, a real, living, ever present power.." (LT, page 53)

"God is not behind nature nor above nature; he is in nature..." (LT, page 40)

"God dwells in man." (LT, page 36)

Kellogg taught that God's hand is large enough to hold the waters of gthe earth in the palm of his hand. His hand is as large as the earth itself. (LT 32)

"God is the explanation of nature-- not as God outside of nature, but in nature..." (LT, p.28)

"There is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-maker in the tree, a flower-maker in the flower." (LT, page 29)

"Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present." (LT, page 28)

"We have a physiological proof of the existence within the body of some power superior to the material composition or substance of the body, which exercises a constant supervision and control whereby individual identity is maintained. This can be nothing less than the Power which builds, which creates,-- it is God himself, the divine Presence in the temple." (LT 52)

"The Lord is in the wind. You see the Lord is in all these things in nature." (GC Bulletin, March 8, 1897, page 290)

"Take the sunflower, for example. It looks straight at the sun.... It is God in the sunflower that makes it do this... There is an intelligence that is present in the plant, in all vegetation...

"Wherever God's life is, God himself is. You can not separate God and his life. That is the reason why God is everywhere." (GC Bulletin, 1901, pages 492-495) Kellogg also speaks on page 495 of the "divine presence" in the cell.

Kellogg taught that when we eat and drink, we receive God. This began to be taught at the Battle Creek Sanitarium and College. (GC Bulletin, 1899, page 58 ff)

[John317]

Compare the above statements by Kellogg with the views of Ellen G. White as found in Volume 8 of the Testimonies For the Church, pages 255 -304. Also see the foreward to that volume, entitled, "The Times of Volume Eight."

Below is pages 255 to 263. The next post contains the Foreward to Volume 8.

Quote:

God In Nature

Before the entrance of sin not a cloud rested upon the minds of our first parents to obscure their perception of the character of God. They were perfectly conformed to the will of God. For a covering a beautiful light, the light of God, surrounded them. This clear and perfect light illuminated everything which they approached. {8T 255.1}

Nature was their lessonbook. In the Garden of Eden the existence of God was demonstrated, His attributes were revealed, in the objects of nature that surrounded them. Everything upon which their eyes rested spoke to them. The invisible things of God, "even His everlasting power and divinity," were clearly seen, being understood by the things that were made. {8T 255.2}

Results of Sin

But while it is true that in the beginning God could be discerned in nature, it does not follow that after the Fall a perfect knowledge of God was revealed in the natural world to Adam and his posterity. Nature could convey her lessons to man in his innocence. But transgression brought a blight upon the earth and intervened between nature and nature's God. Had Adam and Eve never disobeyed their Creator, had they remained in the path of perfect rectitude, they

(256)

would have continued to learn of God through His works. But when they listened to the tempter and sinned against God, the light of the garments of heavenly innocence departed from them. Deprived of the heavenly light, they could no longer discern the character of God in the works of His hand. {8T 255.3}

And through man's disobedience a change was wrought in nature itself. Marred by the curse of sin, nature can bear but an imperfect testimony regarding the Creator. It cannot reveal His character in its perfection. {8T 256.1}

A Divine Teacher

We need a divine Teacher. In order that the world might not remain in darkness, in eternal spiritual night, God met us in Jesus Christ. Christ is "the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9. "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God" is revealed "in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Corinthians 4:6. The light of Christ, illuminating our understanding, and shining upon the face of nature, enables us still to read the lesson of God's love in His created works. {8T 256.2}

Nature Testifies Of God

The things of nature upon which we look today give us but a faint conception of Eden's beauty and glory. Yet much that is beautiful remains. Nature testifies that One infinite in power, great in goodness, mercy, and love, created the earth and filled it with life and gladness. Even in their blighted state all things reveal the handiwork of the great Master Artist. Though sin has marred the form and beauty of the things of nature, though on them may be seen traces of the work of the prince of the power of the air, yet they still speak of God. In the briers, the thistles, the thorns, the tares,

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we may read the law of condemnation; but from the beauty of natural things, and from their wonderful adaptation to our needs and our happiness, we may learn that God still loves us, that His mercy is yet manifested to the world.

"The heavens declare the glory of God;

And the firmament showeth His handiwork.

Day unto day uttereth speech,

And night unto night showeth knowledge.

There is no speech nor language,

Where their voice is not heard."

Psalm 19:1-3. {8T 256.3}

Man's Failure to Interpret Nature

Apart from Christ we are still incapable of interpreting rightly the language of nature. The most difficult and humiliating lesson that man has to learn is his own inefficiency in depending upon human wisdom, and the sure failure of his efforts to read nature correctly. Of himself he cannot interpret nature without placing it above God. He is in a condition similar to that of the Athenians, who, amidst their altars dedicated to the worship of nature, had one inscribed: "To the unknown God." God was indeed unknown to them. He is unknown to all who, without the guidance of the divine Teacher, take up the study of nature. They will assuredly come to wrong conclusions. {8T 257.1}

In its human wisdom the world knows not God. Its wise men gather an imperfect knowledge of Him from His created works; but this knowledge, so far from giving them exalted conceptions of God, so far from elevating the mind and the soul, and bringing the whole being into conformity with His will, tends to make men idolaters. In their blindness they exalt nature and the laws of nature above nature's God. {8T 257.2}

God has permitted a flood of light to be poured upon the

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world in the discoveries of science and art; but when professedly scientific men reason upon these subjects from a merely human point of view, they are sure to err. The greatest minds, if not guided by the word of God, become bewildered in their attempts to investigate the relations of science and revelation. The Creator and His works are beyond their comprehension; and because these cannot be explained by natural laws, Bible history is pronounced unreliable. {8T 257.3}

Those who question the reliability of the Scripture records have let go their anchor and are left to beat about upon the rocks of infidelity. When they find themselves incapable of measuring the Creator and His works by their own imperfect knowledge of science, they question the existence of God and attribute infinite power to nature. {8T 258.1}

In true science there can be nothing contrary to the teaching of the word of God, for both have the same Author. A correct understanding of both will always prove them to be in harmony. Truth, whether in nature or in revelation, is harmonious with itself in all its manifestations. But the mind not enlightened by God's Spirit will ever be in darkness in regard to His power. This is why human ideas in regard to science so often contradict the teaching of God's word. {8T 258.2}

The Work of Creation

The work of creation can never be explained by science. What science can explain the mystery of life? {8T 258.3}

The theory that God did not create matter when He brought the world into existence is without foundation. In the formation of our world, God was not indebted to pre-existing matter. On the contrary, all things, material or spiritual, stood up before the Lord Jehovah at His voice and

259

were created for His own purpose. The heavens and all the host of them, the earth and all things therein, are not only the work of His hand; they came into existence by the breath of His mouth. {8T 258.4}

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3.

"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made;

And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . .

He spake, and it was done;

He commanded, and it stood fast."

Psalm 33:6-9. {8T 259.1}

Laws of Nature

In dwelling upon the laws of matter and the laws of nature, many lose sight of, if they do not deny, the continual and direct agency of God. They convey the idea that nature acts independently of God, having in and of itself its own limits and its own powers wherewith to work. In their minds there is a marked distinction between the natural and the supernatural. The natural is ascribed to ordinary causes, unconnected with the power of God. Vital power is attributed to matter, and nature is made a deity. It is supposed that matter is placed in certain relations and left to act from fixed laws with which God Himself cannot interfere; that nature is endowed with certain properties and placed subject to laws, and is then left to itself to obey these laws and perform the work originally commanded. {8T 259.2}

This is false science; there is nothing in the word of God to sustain it. God does not annul His laws, but He is continually working through them, using them as His instruments. They are not self-working. God is perpetually at

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work in nature. She is His servant, directed as He pleases. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a being who moves in all His works according to His will. It is not by an original power inherent in nature that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of infinite power is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power momentarily exercised that keeps it in position in its rotation. {8T 259.3}

The God of heaven is constantly at work. It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears and every flower blooms. Every drop of rain or flake of snow, every spire of grass, every leaf and flower and shrub, testifies of God. These little things so common around us teach the lesson that nothing is beneath the notice of the infinite God, nothing is too small for His attention. {8T 260.1}

The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. Every breath, every throb of the heart, is a continual evidence of the power of an ever-present God. {8T 260.2}

It is God that causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain. He causes the grass to grow upon the mountains. "He giveth snow like wool: He scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes." "When He uttereth His voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens; . . . He maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of His treasures." Psalm 147:16; Jeremiah 10:13. {8T 260.3}

The Lord is constantly employed in upholding and using

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as His servants the things that He has made. Said Christ: "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." John 5:17. {8T 260.4}

Mysteries of Divine Power

Men of the greatest intellect cannot understand the mysteries of Jehovah as revealed in nature. Divine inspiration asks many questions which the most profound scholar cannot answer. These questions were not asked that we might answer them, but to call our attention to the deep mysteries of God and to teach us that our wisdom is limited; that in the surroundings of our daily life there are many things beyond the comprehension of finite minds; that the judgment and purposes of God are past finding out. His wisdom is unsearchable. {8T 261.1}

Skeptics refuse to believe in God because with their finite minds they cannot comprehend the infinite power by which He reveals Himself to men. But God is to be acknowledged more from what He does not reveal of Himself than from that which is open to our limited comprehension. Both in divine revelation and in nature, God has given to men mysteries to command their faith. This must be so. We may be ever searching, ever inquiring, ever learning, and yet there is an infinity beyond.

-

"Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of His hand,

And meted out heaven with the span,

And comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure,

And weighed the mountains in scales,

And the hills in a balance?

Who hath directed the Spirit of Jehovah,

Or being His counselor hath taught Him? . . .

Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket,

And are accounted as the small dust of the balance:

Behold, He taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

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"And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,

Nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.

All the nations are as nothing before Him;

They are accounted by Him as less than nothing, and vanity.

"To whom then will ye liken God?

Or what likeness will ye compare unto Him? . . .

Have ye not known?

Have ye not heard?

Hath it not been told you from the beginning?

Have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

It is He that sitteth above the circle of the earth,

And the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;

That stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,

And spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. . . .

To whom then will ye liken Me,

That I should be equal to him?

Saith the Holy One.

Lift up your eyes on high,

And see who hath created these,

That bringeth out their host by number;

He calleth them all by name;

By the greatness of His might, and for that He is strong in

power,

Not one is lacking.

"Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel,

My way is hid from Jehovah,

And the justice due to me is passed away from my God?

Hast thou not known?

Hast thou not heard?

The everlasting God, Jehovah,

The Creator of the ends of the earth,

Fainteth not, neither is weary,

There is no searching of His understanding.

He giveth power to the faint;

And to him that hath no might He increaseth strength.

Even the youths shall faint and be weary,

And the young men shall utterly fall:

But they that wait for Jehovah shall renew their strength;

They shall mount up with wings as eagles;

They shall run, and not be weary;

They shall walk, and not faint."

Isaiah 40:12-31, A. R. V.

(263) {8T 261.2}

A Personal God

The mighty power that works through all nature and sustains all things is not, as some men of science represent, merely an all-pervading principle, an actuating energy. God is a spirit; yet He is a personal being, for man was made in His image. {8T 263.1}

Nature is not God

God's handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature. The things of nature are an expression of God's character; by them we may understand His love, His power, and His glory; but we are not to regard nature as God. The artistic skill of human beings produces very beautiful workmanship, things that delight the eye and these things give us something of the idea of the designer; but the thing made is not the man. It is not the work, but the workman, that is counted worthy of honor. So, while nature is an expression of God's thought, it is not nature but the God of nature that is to be exalted.

"The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,

These shall perish from the earth, and from under the heavens."

"The portion of Jacob is not like these;

For He is the former of all things."

"He hath made the earth by His power,

He hath established the world by His wisdom,

And by His understanding hath He stretched out the heavens."

Jeremiah 10:11, 16, 12, A.R.V.

"Seek Him that maketh the Pleiades and Orion,

And turneth the shadow of death into the morning,

And maketh the day dark with night;

That calleth for the waters of the sea,

And poureth them out upon the face of the earth

(Jehovah is His name)." Amos 5:8, A.R.V.

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{8T 263.2}

[John317]

THE TIMES OF VOLUME EIGHT

(Vol. 8 was First Published in 1904)

VOLUME 8 WAS PUBLISHED TO MEET A CRISIS--THE GREATEST CRISIS WHICH THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH HAS EVER FACED. THE URGENCY OF THE MATTER IS EVIDENCED IN THAT THE BOOK CAME FROM THE PRESS IN MARCH, 1904, FIFTEEN MONTHS AFTER VOLUME 7 WAS PUBLISHED. AT THE TIME OF ITS ISSUANCE IT WAS NOT KNOWN HOW THE TIDE WOULD TURN. TODAY WE CAN LOOK BACK AND SEE THAT ITS STEADYING INSTRUCTION WAS A LARGE FACTOR IN AVERTING THREATENED DISASTER.

WHILE THE WORK OF THE DENOMINATION WAS REACHING OUT TO ENCOMPASS THE WORLD, AND WHILE THERE HAD BEEN A REORGANIZATION OF THE GENERAL CONFERENCE WHICH MADE A RAPID YET SOUND GROWTH POSSIBLE, DEVELOPMENTS IN OUR OLD HEADQUARTERS CITY OF BATTLE CREEK, MICHIGAN, TOOK SHAPE WHICH, IF THEY HAD BEEN UNCHECKED, WOULD HAVE LED TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE VERY FOUNDATIONS OF SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST FAITH. IT ALL CAME ABOUT IN SUCH A SUBTLE WAY THAT ITS HAZARDS WERE NOT DETECTED AT THE OUTSET, FOR ERROR WAS PRESENTING ITSELF UNDER THE GARB OF "NEW LIGHT."

NEAR THE TURN OF THE CENTURY, CERTAIN OF THE WORKERS OF THE DENOMINATION, AND ESPECIALLY THE LEADER IN THE MEDICAL MISSIONARY INTERESTS, ESPOUSED CERTAIN TEACHINGS CONCERNING THE PERSONALITY OF GOD WHICH WERE QUITE OUT OF HARMONY WITH THE CLEAR TEACHINGS OF THE WORD OF GOD AND THE POSITIONS OF THE CHURCH. YET THESE TEACHINGS WERE SET FORTH AS AN ADVANCEMENT IN THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE MESSAGE, THE GENERAL ACCEPTANCE OF WHICH WOULD, IT WAS CLAIMED, BRING A GLORIOUS EXPERIENCE TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD AND WOULD HASTEN THE FINISHING OF THE WORK.

THESE PANTHEISTIC VIEWS ENVISIONED GOD NOT AS A GREAT PERSONAL BEING RULING THE UNIVERSE, BUT RATHER AS A POWER, A FORCE, SEEN AND FELT IN NATURE AND PERVADING THE VERY ATMOSPHERE. CONFUSING THE POWER OF GOD WITH HIS PERSONALITY, THEY SAW GOD IN THE SUNSHINE, IN THE FLOWER, IN THE GRASS, IN

6

THE TREE, AND IN THEIR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS. THESE STRANGE BUT ENTRANCING VIEWS WERE PUBLICLY PRESENTED AT ONE GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION, THEY WERE FREELY ADVOCATED IN BATTLE CREEK COLLEGE, AND WERE PRESENTED AGAIN AND AGAIN IN THE BATTLE CREEK SANITARIUM. AT LENGTH THIS "NEW LIGHT" BECAME A TOPIC OF DISCUSSION WHEN SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST WORKERS GATHERED INFORMALLY OR FOR SEASONS OF COUNSEL. WHILE IT WAS A MATTER OF DEEP CONCERN TO THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH, THEIR EFFORTS TO CHECK THESE PANTHEISTIC TEACHINGS SEEMED ALMOST WHOLLY INEFFECTIVE.

THROUGH THE WINTER OF 1902-03 THE MOVEMENT GAINED MOMENTUM. THEN THE PROBLEM BECAME ACUTE WITH THE PUBLICATION OF A BOOK ON PHYSIOLOGY AND HYGIENE WRITTEN IN POPULAR STYLE, IN WHICH THE LEADING PHYSICIAN OF THE DENOMINATION SET FORTH THESE VIEWS IN A SUBTLE WAY. THE BOOK WAS ISSUED FOR WIDE SALE BY SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS TO AID IN SECURING FUNDS FOR THE REBUILDING OF THE BATTLE CREEK SANITARIUM. IT SEEMED TO THE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH THAT THE CRISIS WOULD MOST SURELY BE REACHED AT THE GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION HELD IN THE SPRING OF 1903, WHEN THEY HOPED MRS. WHITE WOULD DEAL CLEARLY WITH THE MATTER. BUT EACH TIME SHE SPOKE SHE SEEMED TO BE RESTRAINED AND PRESENTED A MESSAGE CALLING FOR UNITY IN THE WORK AND THE NEED OF PRESSING TOGETHER IN INTEREST. WHEN THE GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION CLOSED, THE ISSUE WAS STILL NOT MET.

A FEW MONTHS LATER, IN THE AUTUMN OF 1903, MRS. WHITE WAS INSTRUCTED IN VISION TO MEET PROMPTLY AND SQUARELY THE PANTHEISTIC DOCTRINES AND TO POINT OUT THE DANGERS OF THE ACCOMPANYING SPECULATIVE AND SPIRITISTIC TEACHINGS. COMMUNICATIONS DISPATCHED BY HER FROM CALIFORNIA REACHED THE BRETHREN IN AUTUMN COUNCIL SESSION IN WASHINGTON, D. C., AT THE PEAK OF THE CRISIS. ALL COULD NOW SEE THAT GOD WAS GUIDING AND GUARDING HIS WORK, AND IN THE LIGHT OF THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY MESSAGES NEARLY ALL TOOK THEIR STAND ON THE SIDE OF TRUTH. IN THE FIELD, HOWEVER, THERE WAS PERPLEXITY, UNCERTAINTY, AND

7

CONFUSION. TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH, VOLUME 8, BORE A MESSAGE ON THIS MATTER WHICH IN CERTAIN TERMS DEFINED THE TRUTH AND THUS LEFT THE ERROR TO STAND OUT IN BOLD CONTRAST. THE CRISIS WAS MET, AND THE CHURCH WAS SAVED. NO HUMAN POWER ALONE COULD HAVE PRESERVED THE CHURCH IN THIS CRISIS.

BESIDES THIS PARAMOUNT DOCTRINAL CONTROVERSY, THERE WERE OTHER CHURCH ISSUES IN THE TIMES OF VOLUME 8. ONLY A FEW WEEKS AFTER VOLUME 7 HAD COME FROM THE PRESS, WITH ITS MESSAGE OF COUNSEL REGARDING THE WORK BEING DONE IN OUR PUBLISHING HOUSES, THE FACTORY OF THE REVIEW AND HERALD PUBLISHING ASSOCIATION WAS DESTROYED BY FIRE. THIS WAS THE SECOND GREAT DISASTER IN BATTLE CREEK AND FOLLOWED THE SANITARIUM FIRE BY LESS THAN ELEVEN MONTHS.

THERE WERE PROBLEMS INCIDENT TO THIS LOSS MUCH GREATER THAN THAT OF REPLACING DESTROYED PROPERTY. FOR YEARS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY COUNSELS HAD CALLED FOR A DISPERSION OF BELIEVERS FROM BATTLE CREEK AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF SANITARIUM, EDUCATIONAL, AND PUBLISHING INTERESTS ELSEWHERE. OUR PEOPLE HAD BEEN URGED NOT TO CONGREGATE IN LARGE NUMBERS AT THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE WORK. IT WAS IN RESPONSE TO THESE COUNSELS THAT THE OLD BATTLE CREEK COLLEGE HAD BEEN MOVED TO THE COUNTRY LOCATION OF BERRIEN SPRINGS, MICHIGAN. NOW WITH THE MANUFACTURING PLANT OF THE REVIEW AND HERALD DESTROYED BY FIRE, IT SEEMED TO THE LEADERS TO BE A PROPITIOUS TIME TO RELOCATE THE WORK OF THE PUBLISHING HOUSE AT SOME OTHER POINT, AND APPROPRIATE STEPS WERE TAKEN IN THAT DIRECTION.

FROM THE OUTSET THE GENERAL CONFERENCE HEADQUARTERS HAD BEEN LOCATED NEAR THE REVIEW AND HERALD OFFICE. THE TWO SEEMED INSEPARABLE. ANY PLAN TO MOVE ONE WOULD INVOLVE THE OTHER. IN RESPONSE TO GUIDANCE THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY, SUITABLE LOCATIONS WERE SOUGHT, AND FINALLY, IN THE SUBURBS OF WASHINGTON, D. C., THE NATION'S CAPITAL, ACCEPTABLE PROPERTIES WERE FOUND, AND THE WORK OF THE PUBLISHING HOUSE AND THE GENERAL CONFERENCE OFFICES WERE MOVED TO THAT CENTER IN AUGUST, 1903.

8

TO HELP SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS UNDERSTAND THE BACKGROUND OF THE CAUSE OF THE DISASTER WHICH WIPED OUT THE PUBLISHING HOUSE, AND THE NEED OF RE-ESTABLISHING THE WORK ON A NEW BASIS AND IN A NEW LOCATION, "COUNSELS OFTEN REPEATED" WERE SET FORTH IN VOLUME 8.

THESE ISSUES, INVOLVING OUR MEDICAL WORK, OUR PUBLISHING WORK, AND THE VERY DOCTRINES OF THE CHURCH, WERE LARGE AND COULD EASILY DIVERT THE ATTENTION OF OUR PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD FROM THE MAIN TASK BEFORE US--THAT OF CARRYING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL TO ALL THE WORLD. EVEN THOUGH VOLUME 8 WAS ISSUED PRIMARILY TO MEET THESE CRISES, AND TO MAKE THE CORRECT COURSE FOREVER CLEAR TO SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS, ELLEN WHITE MADE A POSITIVE APPROACH. THE BOOK OPENS, NOT WITH A PICTURE OF THE PROBLEMS CONFRONTING US, BUT RATHER WITH THE SECTION ENTITLED "PRESENT OPPORTUNITIES" IN WHICH "OUR WORK" IS SET FORTH IN APPEALING TERMS. THEN FOLLOW CHAPTERS ON "THE COMMISSION," "THE POWER PROMISED," AND VIEWS OF OUR RESPONSIBILITIES AT HOME AND ABROAD, WITH SPECIAL MENTION OF "THE WORK IN EUROPE." HOW IT WOULD HAVE PLEASED THE GREAT ENEMY OF TRUTH IF THE MINDS AND THOUGHTS OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD COULD HAVE BEEN TURNED FROM THE GREAT UNFINISHED TASK BY SPECULATIONS REGARDING THE GODHEAD, BY FANATICISM, OR BY CONFUSED IDEAS OF ORGANIZATION. BUT GOD'S PEOPLE WERE NOT TO BE DIVERTED FROM THEIR WORK OF ENLIGHTENING THE WORLD. WITH THEIR EYES ON THE WORK, ADVANCE MOVES WERE MADE.

TRUE, SOME LOST THEIR WAY IN THE CRISIS OF 1902-03. CERTAIN INSTITUTIONAL PROPERTIES WERE LOST TO THE DENOMINATION; BUT, RATHER THAN RETARDING THE WORK, THE CRISIS MARKED THE OPENING OF GREAT AGGRESSIVE MOVEMENTS. THE WARNINGS OF THE SECTION "BE ON GUARD" AND THE CLEAR DELINEATION OF TRUTH IN THE GROUP OF CHAPTERS ON "THE ESSENTIAL KNOWLEDGE" WILL EVER SERVE TO KEEP THE CHURCH FROM MISLEADING TEACHINGS, AND THE OTHER COUNSELS OF VOLUME 8 WILL BE OF BENEFIT TO THE END OF TIME.

THE TRUSTEES OF THE

ELLEN G. WHITE PUBLICATIONS.

[ClubV12]

I was planning on reading the Testimonies in order, but I think I'll jump ahead to Volume 8 instead. :)

[miz3]

Thank you John317 for citing the "offending pages".

I have read those pages my self in the Living Temple so I have seen them in their context.

Whether as stand alone or in context I found NOTHING in any of all those statements that was "pantheistic" or "tended toward pantheism".

In fact I found that JH Kellogg's views are for the most part true! These concepts are indeed supported by the Bible. In fact they are in perfect line with what Ellen White herself stated about "nature" and "nature's God"!

The "pantheism" rap in whatever form it may take is clearly false!

Given this truth, it seems to me that what "sky" has stated about "conspiracy" within the Brethren is very powerfully true. It was a money and power grab!

As to whether Ellen White is a witting or unwitting co-conspirator is not as clear. I tend to doubt that Ellen White, herself, would have any involvement in such a heinous plan! That of course is my personal opinion.

As to whether anyone on her staff, or in her own family, or connected in any way with her specific work that is a different matter. I can see where such persons would easily line up with the "Brethren" in their bid for money and power. Some may have been involved to advance their own power and agendas, while their may have been others who thought honestly by siding with the "Brethren" that they were supporting God and as such further the "Work" that would bring Jesus back here!

The "Bottom Line" is the "Brethren" never did get their grubby little hands on JH Kellogg's assets and they did not end his power. I find this whole sordid mess a great embarrassment to the SDA Church and a lost opportunity to have an increased influence in the world for good. All that because a few "men" were greedy like Judas Iscariot. This is a horrid wound the Church still has not recovered from. God cannot be pleased!

Could the "fires" have indeed been God's Hand? Yes!

In destroying these great entities God was showing His displeasure at the SDA Church and it's greedy "Brethren". Thus, God assured that the "Brethren" would not get their grubby and greedy hands on those assets.

SDA try and cover this up by stating it was about "dispersion". That is laughable because the "work" was indeed growing outside Battle Creek. Besides the movement that followed these tragedies did not solve the problem of dispersion because the "tendency to gather in conclaves" continued unabated even after the moves. The conclaves just happened in a different geographical location. They continue to this day. Many of you out there in "webland" are part of these large conclaves of SDA!

So the dispersion theory is false! Debunked big time!

[ClubV12]

Conspiracy theories?

I submit, Kellogg was on the grassy knoll. :)

[miz3]

ClubV12 you are entitled to your opinion.

However, JH Kellogg is not a pantheist and JH Kellogg did not tend toward pantheism either!

That is FACT!

[ClubV12]

Thats not a fact according to Ellen White. It's a dangerous deception she warned the brethren and all of us about. Whom then should I put my trust in?

Miz3 or the Lords messenger?

[miz3]

You are free to put you trust in anyone you like, ClubV12. I am not the least bit interested in whether you put your trust in me or not.

I personally put my trust in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit and because of this I put my trust in the Bible as God's Holy Word of Truth!

Ellen White by her own admission was not above or even equal to the Bible. She knew this to be true because she was constantly expressing her own opinions.

Some of Ellen White's writings clearly bear the stamp of "inspiration"! However, most of what she wrote was NOT INSPIRED but was HER OWN PERSONAL OPINION!

In expressing her own opinion Ellen White honestly felt that she was in perfect line with God and His Word. However, the facts are Ellen White was not always in line with God's Word!

[skyblue888]

Okay good. Let's deal with this one first:

"Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present." (LT, page 28)

And you are saying that this is pantheism? Why? Ministry of Healing, p.397, says: "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life."

And we know that it is by His Spirit that He is everywhere present. "The Lord's throne is in Heaven (Ps.11:4); yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present. He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hand." Education, 132.

Therefore, "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." Testimonies, Vol.8,325.

They see His presence in everything. And we know that it is by the Spirit that He is everywhere present. So by the Spirit God is present in everything!

So this statement from Dr. Kellogg "Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God Himself is actually and truly present." (LT, page 28) is not saying anything different than what Mrs. White is saying.

If it is different, please show how.

sky

[ClubV12]

However, most of what she wrote was NOT INSPIRED but was HER OWN PERSONAL OPINION!

Well at least your getting a little closer to being clear on how you perceive Ellen White, as a false prophet. I hope that soon you will make a decision on the issue and be entirely clear on the matter, like Dr. Rich. Not ashamed to take a stand for or against. Not this luke warm, one foot in and one foot out, misleading position that only brings confusion to the table. Time to spit...

[skyblue888]

Now this one:

"We have a physiological proof of the existence within the body of some power superior to the material composition or substance of the body, which exercises a constant supervision and control whereby individual identity is maintained. This can be nothing less than the Power which builds, which creates,-- it is God himself, the divine Presence in the temple." (LT 52)

In what is this any different than what Mrs. White says here in 1 S.M.294:

"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God: but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath follows breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God. 'Ye are God's building.' In God we live and move and have our being.'"

What's the difference?

sky