Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2011 Moderators Posted July 14, 2011 John, you propose to tell us what God means when He says, "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life," that it does not mean "God Himself" but something else than God Himself? This is only human supposition, private interpretation. ....And even if someone says that "the manifestation of God Himself" means "a manifestation of the power of God," the testimonies clearly tell us that "the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God." I do believe that life & nature is the manifestation of God Himself. But that is different from what Dr. Kellogg taught. He says that nature is the actual presence of God Himself. Here's Ellen White: Quote: God's handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature. The things of nature are an expression of God's character and power; but we are not to regard nature as God. {MH 413.2} Here's Dr. Kellogg: Quote: Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God himself is actually and truly present... God is actually within us, a real, living, ever present power. (LT 28, 53). There's an important distinction between "life being the manifestation or expression of God Himself" and "nature being the actual presence of God Himself." Ellen White taught the former; Dr. Kellogg taught the latter. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 When God Himself says that "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men," and when He Himself declares that "The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods, makes me afraid and ought to cause fear," it means something. The Lord said that they were following in the track of Romanism: "Rule, rule, has been their course of action." T.M.363. "Whatever in our practice is not as open as day belongs to the methods of the prince of evil. His methods are practiced among Seventh-day Adventists, who claim to have advanced truth." T.M.366. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 John, some of your posts can be very confusing at times. A little while ago you said that Mrs. White did not say that life was the manifestation of God Himself but merely a manifestation of His power as though His power was a mere actuating energy, a mere impersonal essence, knowing that her statement clearly said this: "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397. But now you are saying that you do believe that life is the manifestation of God Himself! And, if Mrs. White is saying that Kellogg taught that nature was God Himself instead of teaching that there is in nature the manifestation of the presence of God Himself through the Spirit, His immediate Agency, then that would be wrong. All I care to know is this: "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." M.H.416. All I care to know is that God through the Spirit is "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Education,14. These statements certainly shed light on passages of Scripture such as "In Him all things hold together." Or this "In Him we live and move and have our being." I just wish we could agree on this. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 I did not say that Ellen White forged testimonies but that the leading men under Satan's dictation may have in order to put the breaks on anyone whom they could not bring under their control.sky Regardless of whether you say Ellen White forged the Testimonies or men forged them, the end result is the same. Suspicion, distrust in the Testimonies accuracy, a suggestion they were written by men. There are many sitting on the fence already as it concerns what they believe about the inspired writings of Ellen White. Suggesting they cannot be trusted, by whatever method, is aiding and abetting the enemy and will cause souls to stumble on this very important issue. Fundamental to Adventist belief. I believe your voice on this forum, Sky, carries more weight than the average or typical poster. Consider carefully your position on Ellen White's inspired writings and how your influence may impact others. I do not believe God would allow His Testimonies, delivered through His servant, Ellen White, to be tampered with in this most serious of matters. Didn't happen, can't happen, it's out of the realm of possibility. God was just as surely leading His people in the late 1800's early 1900's as He is today. The Testimonies are secure.
miz3 Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 God works through them, That is not what the Bible states. However, how does "God work through the flowers, the trees, etc.?
Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2011 Moderators Posted July 14, 2011 "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself." M.H.397. Why is life a manifestation of God Himself? Because God is the source of all life. Kellogg tried to tell us that when we smell a flower, we are smelling God; when we drink water, we are drinking God; and when we eat food, we are tasting God. All this is false. Those things are the manifestation of God-- but not God Himself. On the same page of MH, Ellen White says, "They [the youth] live because He keeps them by His power." (MH 397) Our lives are the result of God's keeping us alive by His power. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2011 Moderators Posted July 14, 2011 John, some of your posts can be very confusing at times. A little while ago you said that Mrs. White did not say that life was the manifestation of God Himself but merely a manifestation of His power as though His power was a mere actuating energy, a mere impersonal essence, knowing that her statement clearly said this: "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397. But now you are saying that you do believe that life is the manifestation of God Himself! I never said that life was not a manifestation of God Himself. Of course life is a manifestation of God Himself. What I said is that life and nature are not God Himself. Being a manifestation of God and being God are two very different things. Kellogg said that God is actually and truly in nature. This is false. Life and nature are the works and servants of God.(See top of page 260 of 8 T.) God is perpetually at work in nature, but God is not nature. God is at work in the cell but the cell is not God. He made it and it is His servant, but it is not God. You can't smell God by smelling a rose. Neither can you feel or taste God by feeling water or by tasting food. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2011 Moderators Posted July 14, 2011 God works through them, Originally Posted By: miz3 That is not what the Bible states. However, how does "God work through the flowers, the trees, etc.? I wish you would quote the whole statement or quote it so that I can go back to the original post you are quoting. Here's how Ellen White explains the working of God through the laws of nature: Quote: In dwelling upon the laws of matter and the laws of nature, many lose sight of, if they do not deny, the continual and direct agency of God. They convey the idea that nature acts independently of God, having in and of itself its own limits and its own powers wherewith to work. In their minds there is a marked distinction between the natural and the supernatural. The natural is ascribed to ordinary causes, unconnected with the power of God. Vital power is attributed to matter, and nature is made a deity. It is supposed that matter is placed in certain relations and left to act from fixed laws with which God Himself cannot interfere; that nature is endowed with certain properties and placed subject to laws, and is then left to itself to obey these laws and perform the work originally commanded. {8T 259.2} This is false science; there is nothing in the word of God to sustain it. God does not annul His laws, but He is continually working through them, using them as His instruments. They are not self-working. God is perpetually at work in nature. She is His servant, directed as He pleases. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a being who moves in all His works according to His will. It is not by an original power inherent in nature that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of infinite power is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power momentarily exercised that keeps it in position in its rotation. {8T 259.3} The God of heaven is constantly at work. It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears and every flower blooms. Every drop of rain or flake of snow, every spire of grass, every leaf and flower and shrub, testifies of God. These little things so common around us teach the lesson that nothing is beneath the notice of the infinite God, nothing is too small for His attention. {8T 260.1} The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. Every breath, every throb of the heart, is a continual evidence of the power of an ever-present God. {8T 260.2} John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2011 Moderators Posted July 14, 2011 I did not say that Ellen White forged testimonies but that the leading men under Satan's dictation may have in order to put the breaks on anyone whom they could not bring under their control. But that is assuming that this could be done without Ellen White's knowing anything about it. Think of all those letters and testimonies-- all supposedly written by someone besides Ellen White but done in her name. She would have had to be a fool for that to get by her, and she was far from being a fool. She checked her Special Testimonies carefully. I think we need more than a "may have," sky. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 14, 2011 Moderators Posted July 14, 2011 Ellen White and JH Kellogg side by side and not a scintilla's worth of difference between them. Does this make Ellen White a "pantheist" as JH Kellogg is being accused of? I really am sorry to see that you can't see the difference. That probably accounts for the fact that you also think that people aren't free moral agents and that Ellen White was merely telling us her own personal opinions about this too. Probably also accounts for your believing that Mary was just an incubator for Christ. Remember that Ellen White said people sometimes won't be able to see the difference between her teachings and the teachings of Kellogg. Please consider the following: Quote: We are living in an age of great light; but much that is called light is opening the way for the wisdom and arts of Satan. Many things will be presented that appear to be true, and yet they need to be carefully considered with much prayer; for they may be specious devices of the enemy. The path of error often appears to lie close to the path of truth. It is hardly distinguishable from the path that leads to holiness and heaven. But the mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit may discern that it is diverging from the right way. After a while the two are seen to be widely separated. {8T 290.5} Pantheistic Theories Already there are coming in among our people spiritualistic teachings that will undermine the faith of those who give heed to them. The theory that God is an essence pervading all nature is one of Satan's most subtle devices. It misrepresents God and is a dishonor to His greatness and majesty. {8T 291.1} Pantheistic theories are not sustained by the word of God. The light of His truth shows that these theories are soul-destroying agencies. Darkness is their element, sensuality their sphere. They gratify the natural heart and give license to inclination. Separation from God is the result of accepting them.... If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power that is within him. {8T 291.3} These theories, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They do away with the necessity for the atonement and make man his own savior. {8T 291.2} John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 God works through them, Originally Posted By: miz3 That is not what the Bible states. However, how does "God work through the flowers, the trees, etc.? I wish you would quote the whole statement or quote it so that I can go back to the original post you are quoting. Here's how Ellen White explains the working of God through the laws of nature: Quote: In dwelling upon the laws of matter and the laws of nature, many lose sight of, if they do not deny, the continual and direct agency of God. They convey the idea that nature acts independently of God, having in and of itself its own limits and its own powers wherewith to work. In their minds there is a marked distinction between the natural and the supernatural. The natural is ascribed to ordinary causes, unconnected with the power of God. Vital power is attributed to matter, and nature is made a deity. It is supposed that matter is placed in certain relations and left to act from fixed laws with which God Himself cannot interfere; that nature is endowed with certain properties and placed subject to laws, and is then left to itself to obey these laws and perform the work originally commanded. {8T 259.2} This is false science; there is nothing in the word of God to sustain it. God does not annul His laws, but He is continually working through them, using them as His instruments. They are not self-working. God is perpetually at work in nature. She is His servant, directed as He pleases. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a being who moves in all His works according to His will. It is not by an original power inherent in nature that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of infinite power is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power momentarily exercised that keeps it in position in its rotation. {8T 259.3} The God of heaven is constantly at work. It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears and every flower blooms. Every drop of rain or flake of snow, every spire of grass, every leaf and flower and shrub, testifies of God. These little things so common around us teach the lesson that nothing is beneath the notice of the infinite God, nothing is too small for His attention. {8T 260.1} The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. Every breath, every throb of the heart, is a continual evidence of the power of an ever-present God. {8T 260.2} Now John. Very funny. Here you are quoting the very statements that I have been posting in our previous discussions on this topic which speak of an Intelligence at work in nature, which speak of the Agency of a Being (Spirit) who moves in all things according to His will. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 I did not say that Ellen White forged testimonies but that the leading men under Satan's dictation may have in order to put the breaks on anyone whom they could not bring under their control.sky Regardless of whether you say Ellen White forged the Testimonies or men forged them, the end result is the same. Suspicion, distrust in the Testimonies accuracy, a suggestion they were written by men. There are many sitting on the fence already as it concerns what they believe about the inspired writings of Ellen White. Suggesting they cannot be trusted, by whatever method, is aiding and abetting the enemy and will cause souls to stumble on this very important issue. Fundamental to Adventist belief. I believe your voice on this forum, Sky, carries more weight than the average or typical poster. Consider carefully your position on Ellen White's inspired writings and how your influence may impact others. I do not believe God would allow His Testimonies, delivered through His servant, Ellen White, to be tampered with in this most serious of matters. Didn't happen, can't happen, it's out of the realm of possibility. God was just as surely leading His people in the late 1800's early 1900's as He is today. The Testimonies are secure. Club, I understand your concern. Thank you. If you only knew how this has been bothering me, for years, day and night, you would know that I do not take these things lightly. This is the most difficult thing for me to suggest that not all that is said to be from Mrs. White is to be received as such, in regard to A.T. Jones and Dr. Kellogg. It really pains me to think about it. I can't shake off the possibility that unscrupulous men, having put God aside and accepted the devisings of men, would go to any length in order to get their way, not being kept by God's power they would "work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men and that fraud and guile would bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God." T.M.366. Please take a good look at the following quotes: "God's handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature. The things of nature are an expression of God's character and power; but we are not to regard nature as God. {MH 413.2} "Life is mysterious and sacred, it is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397. "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything." Considering only the last two statements, it is clear that she is talking about God in nature, the presence of God in nature, that life in nature is the manifestation of God Himself. It is not that nature is God of course but that God is working in nature. How can His presence be in everything and Him not be there? Of course it is by His Spirit that He is there, in nature, moving in all things according to His will. This is what I believe the Bible and the Testimonies to be teaching and this is what I shall teach. To tell you the truth, I really don't care about what Dr. Kellogg taught. If he taught something different than that, then so be it. The first statement is somewhat obscure. It does not sound like something Mrs. White would say except for the last part of the sentence, that we are not to regard nature as God. When we compare the first part of that statement "God's handiwork in nature is not God Himself in nature" and put that side by side with the other two statements, something is amiss. Mrs. White has a chapter in the book Education titled "God In Nature" in which she says "The heart not yet hardened by contact with evil is quick to recognize the Presence that pervades all created things." p.100. The Presence that pervades all created things! It is a personal presence, not an impersonal presence. In Ministry of Healing,416, she says that it is an intelligent presence or an active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will. It is the presence of God in nature through His immediate Agency: the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is God, then I can appreciate that statement which says that "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life." M.H.397. Of course, God the Being is not in nature, but God the Spirit is. This is what I believe the Bible and the Tesimonies are teaching. It is only by the Spirit, God's immediate agency, that the Father and Christ can be everywhere present. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Dr. Rich Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Just who are you ClubV12 to tell Sky anything like you just did? Clearly it is you that can't see the problems that many others have in regards to EGW's writings, as you are now showing your bias mistakenly believe that God was the one behind her visions and writings! You are a 'newbie' and have no right to say what you did to sky, who for the most part is very knowledgable in this whole issue. So please tell me just what would it take (if anything) for you to say that she was not a true prophet? If you can't change, then you are just like those found in the position in Rev. 3:17. How sad!
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Why is life a manifestation of God Himself? Because God is the source of all life. _______________________ sky: John, again, the statement does not merely say that life is a manifestation of God Himself but "THE manifestation of God Himself." John: Kellogg tried to tell us that when we smell a flower, we are smelling God; when we drink water, we are drinking God; and when we eat food, we are tasting God. All this is false. sky: John, Mrs. White says that "It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, and in the food (food and water) which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength." Education,197,8. Yet, I don't see you or anyone else here suggesting that she was a pantheist! On page 120 of Education, last paragraph, she even went as far as saying that the earth is filled with the presence of Christ! So when we smell the flowers we are truly smelling the fragrances of the life of Christ because it is His life that pervades all nature. "A mysterious life pervades all nature." Education,99. "Without the life of God nature would die." 1 B.C.1081. "Not only is He the Originator of all, but He is the life of everything that lives." Education,197. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. John: Those things are the manifestation of God-- but not God Himself. sky: Of course the created things are not God Himself, but by His Spirit, God is present in them and working in and through them, moving in all things according to His will. John: Our lives are the result of God's keeping us alive by His power. sky: And "Christ is both the wisdom and the power of God." 1 Cor.1:24. "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. "The Lord is the Spirit." 2 Cor.3:17. "The divine Spirit is the presence and power of God." Signs of the Times, Nov.23, 1891. The divine Spirit, God's immediate Agency throughout immensity, is the true Representative of Christ and of the Father. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Just who are you ClubV12 to tell Sky anything like you just did? Clearly it is you that can't see the problems that many others have in regards to EGW's writings, as you are now showing your bias mistakenly believe that God was the one behind her visions and writings! You are a 'newbie' and have no right to say what you did to sky, who for the most part is very knowledgable in this whole issue. So please tell me just what would it take (if anything) for you to say that she was not a true prophet? If you can't change, then you are just like those found in the position in Rev. 3:17. How sad! Brother Rich, appreciate what you are saying but I want you to know that I do believe that God was the One behind her visions and writings. But I also believe that it is possible that the Lord may have allowed men in supposed authority to have inserted messages that they have claimed to be from the Lord in order to bring men under the control of men. I believe that the writings of Mrs. White were inspired. I have no problem with any of her books. They are inspired and I believe she was a true prophet. I have said before and I say it again that I have been blessed by her writings beyond measure and still am. I understand Club and John's concern. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Dr. Rich, we KNOW your position on Ellen White, you believe she is a false prophet, so noted. I believe she is an inspired messenger of God and that ALL the Testimonies are thus the voice of God. There is no minimum time frame God places on any of us to accept truth, some see it, believe it, accept it. In an hour or a day, it doesn't take decades. Some, perhaps like yourself, at first believe, but without a total surrender begin to come under delusion at some point. It may take years, or decades, but "time" is no gaurentee for any of us that will still know and understand the truth. When did that start for yourself Dr. Rich? How many years ago was it when you first began to doubt the inspiration of Ellen White, the end result of which has been a total rejection of her inspiration? I understand Sky's concern with the possibility of tampering by man, but as it concerns the Testimonies, I reject that theory. I don't believe the Lord would allow that. But other wise, Sky is correct. We cannot under estimate the power of corrupt men to undermine the work of God in many other ways. When Paul was writing his work HAD to be a lesser light as well, because ALL scripture must be compared to existing scripture. At some point, Pauls work was confirmed and added to the bible record. I see Ellen Whites work in the same regard. For now, it is a lesser light and must be compared to the biblical record. In that regard, there is total harmony between the two, her lesser light and the greater light. ...of course we know Dr. Rich also rejects Paul so the above is not written for his edification, but for the readers of this thread.
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Club, I am totally with you in regard to Mrs. White. If I am mistaken about Kellogg I know I am not mistaken as to the true relation between nature and nature's God based on the Scriptures and her writings. I have a profound respect for the Writings of Ellen White. If you could talk to my friends here, they would tell you so. I know that Mrs. White spoke of her writings as the "lesser light" and it is totally appropriate for her to have said that. The fact that she said that proves that she was a true prophet, that she was actuated by the Spirit of the Gospel. However, as we study her writings, comparing statement with statement, after a while, we can readily see that they are more than just a lesser light. She wrote, "They are what God has opened to me in vision--the precious rays of light shining from the throne." 1 S.M.27. How can her writings be mere "lesser light" when they are the precious rays of light shining from the throne as divine commentaries upon the Scriptures! In her writings, God Himself is commenting or explaining the true meaning of His Word! So to me her writings are God explaining His own Word to us. To me it is the greater light but Mrs. White could not make that claim herself. It is left to us to come to that understanding. How many people in the world are blessed with the precious rays of light shining from the throne to give the correct understanding of the Scriptures? We may have the Bible in our possession but if we do not have the corcect understanding, how much "greater light" do we have? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 Good job sky! On this issue you are exactly correct!
miz3 Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 You cannot separate God from His Power! You cannot separate God from His Law! You cannot separate God from His Love! You cannot separate God from His Presence! God's Power, Law, and Love are NOT separate entities that attached themselves to God. They do not exist apart from God! All of God's Attributes whenever they are truly present then God is also present also! Power, Law, and Love do not exist apart from God Himself! That means if God's Power, or Goodness or whatever Attribute is present then God also must in actual fact (not in theory) be also Present as well!
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 You cannot separate God from His Power! You cannot separate God from His Law! You cannot separate God from His Love! You cannot separate God from His Presence! God's Power, Law, and Love are NOT separate entities that attached themselves to God. They do not exist apart from God! All of God's Attributes whenever they are truly present then God is also present also! Power, Law, and Love do not exist apart from God Himself! That means if God's Power, or Goodness or whatever Attribute is present then God also must in actual fact (not in theory) be also Present as well! Miz3 _____________________________________ I agree with you on this point. Well said. We cannot separate God from His life. "A mysterious life pervades all nature." Educ.99. It is by His Spirit, the Spirit of life, that He is everywhere present. Just another way of saying that "In Him all things hold together," "In Him we live and move and have our being." But in order to live the Chritian life, we must have faith in Christ, faith in His all-sufficient merits. Then God by His Spirit works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Sky says, "To me it is the greater light but Mrs. White could not make that claim herself. It is left to us to come to that understanding." Yup, I totally agree with that! I think Paul would have taken the same approach, wanting the people to look to the "scrolls" to compare his "lesser light" to the greater light in his time. Without Ellen Whites writings, from the Lord to us, I suspect we would be no different than many other denominations in our interpretation of scripture. Not everyone was convinced of Pauls calling during his time. No doubt there were questions about which parts were inspired and which were not! :)
skyblue888 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Sky says,"To me it is the greater light but Mrs. White could not make that claim herself. It is left to us to come to that understanding." Yup, I totally agree with that! I think Paul would have taken the same approach, wanting the people to look to the "scrolls" to compare his "lesser light" to the greater light in his time. Without Ellen Whites writings, from the Lord to us, I suspect we would be no different than many other denominations in our interpretation of scripture. Not everyone was convinced of Pauls calling during his time. No doubt there were questions about which parts were inspired and which were not! Yes, considering the many confusing voices within our own ranks and the multidinous and conflicting voices outside of Adventism, we can thank God for these writings. I am every day. The Lord said to her, "I will make My Word open to you. It shall not be as a strange language. In the true eloquence of simplicity, with voice and pen, the messages that I give shall be heard from one who has never learned in the schoools. My Spirit and My power shall be with you... The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil." 1 S.M.32. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 I think it is extremely sad that SDA had a golden opportunity to do many great things because God gave them such a brilliant man in JH Kellogg. Instead of appreciating and working in a cooperative spirit to advance the "work" greedy, power hungry men conspired to undermine this valuable spiritual and physical asset sent to us by God. Instead these greedy power hungry men not only destroyed the effectiveness of the Church but in separating JH Kellogg from the Church Kellogg was not as great as he could have been. In addition these same greedy power hungry ones may have also destroyed the possible effectiveness and credibility of Ellen White and her work. The damage is incalculable. Unfortunately our tears are wasted and satan rejoices! This same spirit of greediness and power hunger remains within the SDA Church. Like David of old God will not let this "Sword" pass from us. SDA need to become more humble and Christ like! SDA need to return to the Bible and Bible only and NOT continue in their corporate fake allegiance to the Bible! SDA need to return to the Gospel which means NOT trying to make all people SDA but instead make all people become like Jesus Christ! SDA preach SDAism they do NOT preach Christ and Him Crucified! Like I said it is the very definition of sadness! ONLY the Lord God in Heaven can heal our sickness. The experience of JH Kellogg is played out almost daily somewhere in the SDA Church as we speak. Only it is not Kellogg but many times it is good Christian Workers who are stepped on like bugs under the steel boot of the Brethren!
ClubV12 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Well I'm glad to hear we don't preach Baptist or Jehovah Witness doctrines, just good old SDA'ism. Do you have a specific doctrine your opposed to miz3? If we don't preach and teach the three angels message' and bring them to be SDA's, what other religion would you recommend for them? Mormon perhaps? Paul was Seventh-day Adventist, as was Jesus, the "name" says it all. I'm just a little confused on exactly how you want to carry out this "reform" you have in mind.
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