WAS JOHN HARVEY KELLOGG A PANTHEIST?

[John317]

No it was not his own leadings that made him evolutionary but it was the influences that constantly surrounded him once he was kicked out of SDA Church!

This contradicts the clear counsel of Ellen White to Dr. Kellogg. She told him that his ideas were dangerous and that if he continued to believe them, they would lead him to separate from God. She wrote dozens of letters to him personally, appealing to him to leave those false and dangerous beliefs behind and turn back to God and the truth. Tragically, Dr. Kellogg never did.

Below are examples of what she said about the book:

Quote:

I am instructed to speak plainly. "Meet it," is the word spoken to me. "Meet it firmly, and without delay." But it is not to be met by our taking our working forces from the field to investigate doctrines and points of difference. We have no such investigation to make. In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1}

We need not the mysticism that is in this book. Those who entertain these sophistries will soon find themselves in a position where the enemy can talk with them, and lead them away from God. It is represented to me that the writer of this book is on a false track. He has lost sight of the distinguishing truths for this time. He knows not whither his steps are tending. The track of truth lies close beside the track of error, and both tracks may seem to be one to minds which are not worked by the Holy Spirit, and which, therefore, are not quick to discern the difference between truth and error. {1SM 202.2}

Few can discern the result of entertaining the sophistries advocated by some at this time. But the Lord has lifted the curtain, and has shown me the result that would follow. The spiritualistic theories regarding the personality of God, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John to give to His people. They teach that the scenes just before us are not of sufficient importance to be given special attention. They make of no effect the truth of heavenly origin, and rob the people of God of their past experience, giving them instead a false science. {1SM 203.4}

In a vision of the night I was shown distinctly that these sentiments have been looked upon by some as the grand truths that are to be brought in and made prominent at the present time. I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers--the truths of the Word of God. Someone high in responsibility in the medical work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, "Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action." {1SM 204.1}

[miz3]

I have made my position quite clear. You can read the posts as easily as I can.

You are free to have opinions on them as you choose.

I believe what I wrote to be truthful in best way I know.

[skyblue888]

"I am afraid of the men who have entered into the study of the science that Satan carried into the warfare in heaven... When they once accept the bait, it seems impossible to break the spell that Satan casts over them." Letter, Ellen G. White to Brethren Daniells and Prescott and their associates, Oct. 30, 1905, J.H. N. Tindall Collection

I would like for us to take another look at this statement from the Tindall Collection. This statement is supposed to be a letter from Mrs. White to Daniells and Prescott and associates who were the ring leaders in opposing the Lord in 1903! It is as though these men were totally in the right and yet these men were the very men who had chosen to put God aside and accepted the devisings of men: men's devisings for church governance with a man as president (kingly power), hierarchy, by-laws, policy book, voting, resolutions, rules and regulations, creeds, church manual, etc etc (By the way, all should know that at the 1901 General Conference the Lord called for these men to be removed but Daniells argued that it was not the men but wrong principles that the Lord meant to be removed)

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." "The high-handed power that has been developed makes me afraid and ought to cause fear." T.M.481;361.

So the statement from the Tindall Collection is supposed to be a testimony from the Lord to warn the ring leaders in apostasy about Kellogg and his associates, men like A.T. Jones, E.J. Waggoner, etc etc

This is why I believe that this statement, like many others, has to have been another fabrication by these men who were determined to crush Dr. Kellogg and his associates because they were not amenable to the then order of things. And I believe that the Lord allowed this to happen just as He allowed the Jews to have their way so many times. This to me is part of the Omega of apostasy: manipulating, forging, fabricating false testimonies to bring men under the control of men.

"Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God." T.M.366.

As one reads that statement from the Tindall collection and then read those statements from The Living Temple where Dr. Kellogg speaks of God being present in all nature by the agency of His Holy Spirit, he can see right away that Dr. Kellogg taught the very opposite of what Satan introduced in the courts of heaven. See 8 T 290 very first paragraph.

He can readily see that Dr. Kellogg taught that all created beings were dependent upon God's providence, upon God's continual presence for their very existence but that Satan with his false science, with his false scientific theories was teaching that he and all the angels had the life principle within themselves, that they could live independently of the life of God and therefore of Christ.

But Dr. Kellogg spoke of a universal Intelligence, a universal presence pervading all creation. In the book the Living Temple and in the Interview with Amadon and Bourdeau, Dr. Kellogg re-affirms his belief in an all-powerful God and in Jesus Christ his Redeemer, and recognizing that by the Spirit, "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all," (Education 14) the Father and Christ are everywhere present moving in and through all. (M.H.416; P.P.114)

So this is in perfect harmony with the testimony of Scripture and in perfect harmony with the Testimonies.

"Rightly understood, both the revelations of science and the experiences of life are in harmony with the testimony of Scripture to the constant working of God in nature." Education, p.130.

"It is not because the mechanism once set in motion continues to act by its own inherent energy that the pulse beats, and breath follows breath. Every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the care of Him in whom we live and move and have our being. From the smallest insect to man, every living creature is daily dependent upon His providence... From all the objects of His creation the condition is the same--a life sustained by receiving the life of God... The Lord has given His life to the trees and vines of His creation... Without the life of God nature would die." Education,131,130,99; 1 B.C.1089.

From what I understand, this is what is taught in the book The Living Temple, not the false science of Lucifer which teaches that man can live independently of the life of God.

A pantheist teaches no such thing as we have just read. Notice these words from The Living Temple again:

"When a man believes that God is ever present within him, and that not the smallest hair of his head may fall without God's noticing it ; when he feels that there is a mighty power working within him ; that he is not left to depend alone upon a fallible doctor, who makes mistakes and blunders, and makes wrong diagnoses and wrong prescriptions; that he is not left to depend upon his own poor human nature, or upon some feeble, perhaps wholly useless, remedy; that he is not left to depend upon any human agency, or system, or philosophy which may possibly prove false and futile, nor something mystical or questionable or unreasonable, but that the mighty power that made the universe is the groundwork of his hope and confidence; when he feels that the same power cares for him which maintains the sunshine, that keeps the earth turning regularly on its axis and the planets circling in their orbits, then he knows that he has his feet upon a firm foundation; he can lift his head above the doubts and apprehensions of disease, fancied or real, and with Job can declare, "I know that my Redeemer liveth ; " and with Daniel, can say, "He is the strength of my life;" "who forgiveth all mine iniquities, who healeth all my diseases." "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High, shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." J.H. Kellogg, The Living Temple, 486.

Now compare the above with this:

"God's healing power runs all through nature. If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm... Every soul that yields to temptation is wounded, bruised, by the adversary; but wherever there is sin, there is the Saviour." Education, 113.

"Wherever there is sin, there is the Saviour," bearing it, for no one can bear the curse and still live. Only Christ can:

"The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us." D.A.328.

So this shows that Christ bears the curse in man, in all men. He is the life of every man and of everything that lives. He bears the curse wherever it is found, and where is it not found? "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28.

"Not only is He the Originator of all, but He is the life of everything that lives. It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, and in the food which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength. It is by His life what we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment. Unless as perverted by sin, all His gifts tend to life, to health and joy." Education, p.197,198.

How many of us realize this, that it is His life that we receive through these gifts? Is it any wonder then that we have been given the message on health reform? Of course it is His life for our physical nature. That is why Mrs. White wrote, "Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food but He is nourished by the body and blood of Christ." D.A.660. By "daily food," it is especially meant live food, pure, sweet air and water, and abundant sunshine.

So "The light shining from that Communion Service in the upper chamber makes sacred the provisions for our daily life. The family board becomes as the Table of the Lord and every meal a sacrament." D.A.660.

Waggoner wrote: "Therefore, during the Communion service we do not partake of the flesh or of the blood of Christ any more than we do in an ordinary meal provided we are eating and drinking that which the Lord has given us to eat. This service in the upper room teaches us how to eat. It contains a lesson on health reform. It sets the pattern for every meal. Now since according to 1 Cor.11:29,30, failure to discern the Lord’s body in the provisions for our daily life is the cause why many are weak and sickly, and why many sleep, it follows that if the Lord’s body were discerned, the opposite would be the case. If men discerned the Lord’s body, they would find strength and health...

The Lord Jesus took bread, gave thanks, and said, “This is My body.” This occurred when they were eating. The bread was the ordinary unleavened bread that they had on the table, and such it was after Jesus had given thanks; then He took the cup, and said, “This is My blood.” It was ordinary grape juice that they had on the table, and such it was after Jesus had given thanks.

We know that it is utterly useless to spend time arguing, what is true enough, that the catholic priest has not the power to change the bread into the body of Christ; for the Scripture tells us that it is that already. ‘This is My body.’ There is no magic whatever about the matter. To be sure, the partaking of the body and the blood of Christ in the Lord’s Supper is absolutely independent of any action of any priest or minister.” E.J. Waggoner, The Everlasting Covenant, p.119.120.

This is a deep truth that we need to understand.

"Man who is in honor, but does not understand, is like the beasts that perish." Ps.49:20.

sky

[skyblue888]

Other very interesting excerpts from The Living Temple:

The Mystery of the Heart Beat.

It will be apparent that the regulation of the heart's action

is a matter of the utmost importance; and the question must

have already arisen in the reader's mind, How is this regu-

lation effected? By what means is the heart made to go on

beating rhythmically a whole lifetime, pumping just the quantity of blood needed by the body at each particular

moment, increasing its rate when called to support vigorous

activity, slowing down at night to permit of sleep, never

failing to respond to a call for blood made by the stomach,

liver, muscles, or brain, which, with every organ, depend

upon a constant and adequate blood supply to maintain their

activity? This is one of the questions which physiologists

have never been able to answer.

There are nerves passing out from the brain and spinal

cord, the influence of which upon the heart is to increase its

action. There are also other nerves which slow its action.

These nerves seem to operate like the controlling levers of

an electric car, one of which increases the speed of the car,

while the other puts on the brakes and slows it down. Physi-

ologists have foiuid the levers by which the heart's action

is controlled, but what about the power that operates the lev

ers? On this point the scientist acknowledges his igfnorance.

The heart is a muscle. A muscle is simply a living

machine. It contracts only when it is commanded to do so.

One may beat the table with his fist. The arm muscles con-

tract and raise the hand, then bring it down with force; but

the arm strikes only when it is ordered so to do. When

no command is given, it remains passively inactive. The

heart is only a muscle, and no more capable of activity inde-

pendent of a will to command than is the arm. Each time

that it contracts, it does so in obedience to a will behind it,

of which it is the servant.

Let us make an experiment which will show this. Put

the fingers of the right hand upon the left wrist, and find

the beating artery there. It will be readily felt on the thumb

side of the arm, at a point just above the bend of the wrist.

You have found the artery. You feel it beating. Count the

number of beats per minute. The rate is seventy-two, we

will say. Now command your heart to beat at the rate of

eighty times a minute, or order it to stop for a few minutes.

Notice, does it obey? Count again. There may possibly be

a slight variation in the pulse rate, but certainly you are per

suaded that your heart is in no wise subject to your will.

You cannot command it to quicken or slow its rate, or if

you do, your commands are not obeyed. Has the heart a

will of its own? Is it a separate and distinct creature that

can behave as it likes? Certainly this is not possible.

THE POWER BEHIND THE HEART

As a part of your body, the heart is an important department

ment in the living temple. In its marvelous power, its ceaseless activity, the ready adaptation of its action to the changing needs of the body, it affords us a most convincing and indubitable evidence of the operation within our bodies of another will besides our own, of another intelligence, another consciousness, independent of our human or conscious intelligence, and going beyond it in its power to recognize and instantly supply our ever-changing needs. There is only

one solution to this mystery. The power behind the heart,

the hand which grasps the levers which control its ever

changing action, is the hand of Him who said,

"I will strengthen thine heart"

The intelligence which adapts its movements to every changing bodily need is that of Him who conceived and constructed this wonderful mechanism, who made the heart. The consciousness whose never-failing watchfulness maintains the activity of this throbbing engine of life while we sleep as well as while we are awake, is that of Him who said, "I am thy life," and whose actual presence and constant indwelling in every cell and every organ of the human frame is essential to the performance of every bodily function, from the simplest to the most complicated, and to the maintenance of that marvelous harmony which secures the co-operation of each organ with every other one, and of each function with every other function, in the promotion of the activity and the well-being of our temple bodies." J.H. Kellogg, The Living Temple, pp.248,249.

Now compare the avove with these statements from

Ellen G. White:

"All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are recipients of the life of the Son of God." 1 S.M.301.

"The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood. It presents mysteires that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues to work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. (Acts 17:28) The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every never and muscle in the living organism is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God." Ministry of Healing, 417.

"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation, and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God. (1 Cor.3:9). In God we live and move and have our being. Each heartbeat, each breath is the the inspiration of Him who breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life--the inspiration of the ever-present God, the great I AM." 1 S.M.294,5.

"The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." D.A.606 "The divine Spirit that the world's Redeemer promised to send is the presence and power of God." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov.23,1891.

______

Here again from Dr. Kelloog from the 1897 General

Conference Bulletins, pp.94,95 and from the 1901 Bulletin,

p.493.

THE HEART

We have five hundred muscles in the body, and they are all controlled by the will, the mind. When I strike with my hand or beat with my fist, there is a will behind the hand and the fist. My muscles do not act unless there is a command to contract. The thing that is efficient and all essential is the will, it is the commanding power. My arm will contract and cause the fist to beat; but it beats only when my will commands.

But here is a muscle in the body that beats when I am asleep. It beats when my will is inactive and I am utterly unconscious. It keeps on beating all the time. What will is it that causes this heart to beat? The heart can not beat once without a command!

To me it is a most wonderful thing that a man’s heart goes on beating. It does not beat by means of my will; for I can not stop the heart’s beating, or make it beat faster or slower by commanding it by my will. But there is a will that controls the heart. It is the divine will that causes it to beat. In the beating of that heart that you can feel, as you put your hand upon the breast, or as you put your finger against the pulse, we have the evidence of the divine presence that we have within us, that there is an Intelligence, a power, a will within, that is commanding the functions of our bodies and controlling them!

Notice what the heart does: It has the blood to circulate. The corpuscles of the blood come into the heart, and the heart forces them all out, and sends them around the body; then they come back to the lungs laden with impurities. In the lungs these impurities are exchanged for the life-giving air, and the blood again enters the heart, and is forced out into the body again. So the blood is the means by which the body is purified.

The blood contains these wonderful living cells that you see. The red cells simply carry in the oxygen, and carry out the carbonic gases; that is about all that they do. But the white cells have a more wonderful faculty and power. It is their duty to travel through the body, creeping into every nook and cranny, getting into every minute crevice and corner, where they are actively engaged in removing everything that does not belong there. They have a wonderful intelligence; but their movements are not directed by our will. These little cells find something in the body that does not belong there, and they really swallow that thing up. What makes these cells move about in this way and perform their functions? There is a power there which is none other than the power of God. Rom.1:20.

________________

"Every pulsation of the heart is an evidence of the care of Him in whom we live and move and have our being." Education, p.131; M.H.416,7; Acts 17:28; Eph.4:6; Jer.23:23; Ps.139:7.

sky

[miz3]

Well done sky!

[miz3]

It is more than clear!

JH KELLOGG WAS NO PANTHEIST!

[ClubV12]

I wish you guys would quit posting this trash from Kellogg's book and follow the inspired Testimony of Ellen White in regards to it.

On this thread, your true colors have been revealed.

[skyblue888]

The Interview with Dr. Kellogg

Part 17

Dr. Kellogg: The thing that hurt me the worst of all, and the only thing that really has hurt me in this whole business, is the fact that men that have known me all these years should believe these things against me. What business have all you good Christian people to be judging? You have been judging right along, and that is the thing that, as I said, has hurt me and has humiliated me, and I have got down on my face and wept many a time to think that men I knew and who have known me all my lifetime could believe such things of me. I trusted they would not. And when I saw those men starting out on their campaign of deception and misrepresentation against me, I said, "I will wait. They will find out differently. I will go right on about my business, and by and by they will find out it is not true." But they managed to keep the thing going one way or another.

B: This organization, for instance -- I didn't know but what it was a family concern, what Elder Jones has written.

K: We haven't any [church] organization there at the Sanitarium.

B: He [Jones] is striking against our mode of organization.

K: The Lord has denounced it, and he has only quoted what the Lord has said about it. That is, Sister White denounced it at the General Conference in 1901 here in Battle Creek. Sister White got up and told them their organization was wrong, and a new plan was presented and she said that plan was right.

I wrote a resolution myself at that particular time. And if I am a pantheist, I was as bad then as I am now, for I stood up before the General Conference and preached all the heresy I have, and it was put into the Bulletin and published, and at that very same time, after I did that thing, Sister White asked that I should be ordained as a preacher, and you will find it reported in the Bulletin.

A: Yes, I know it, whether it was reported or not.

K: And I was just as bad then as I am now in every particular. And that is the thing. The fact that I know a few things about these things is the thing that enables me to stand here quietly during this storm, because I know the Lord knows all about it, and He knows exactly what I believed then and what I believe now. And all this campaign does not make any difference with the fact, and the Lord knows all about it.

As I said, the thing that hurt me is the fact that you men right here in town would believe a whole lot of this stuff without ever coming to see me once to inquire anything about it.

B: We have come today.

K: You have been believing it. But you haven't any right to believe such a thing without asking me, without coming to me. And these other things, a lot of things these other people are going all over the world telling -- When W. C. White tells stories in his official capacity before audiences, when Daniells gets up before audiences and tells tales, and others stand together and tell tales that are false as sin, and they know they are false -- cannot help but know it, or if they have any ground at all it is only bare suspicion -- But it goes on year after year, year after year, until by and by they get the whole denomination to believe a whole lot of things that are absolutely false. Things get to a pretty sorry pass after awhile, and I don't believe in that kind of business.

In 1903 at Oakland I took my stand against the Seventh-day Adventist form of organization [the form adopted there]. I told them they were taking a back track, going into a wrong thing. Sister White said they should not have that kind of committee, but they went right on and did the same thing over and made it ten times worse than it ever was before. They threw away the new constitution, the new charter, which Sister White said in 1901 was right -- as the Lord would have it -- they threw that away, repudiated it, went back to the old thing they had before. Only they made it ten times worse than it was before. How can I believe in it? The Lord condemned it.

[miz3]

ONCE AGAIN WILLIE WHITE IS IMPLICATED IN THE FRAUD AND TELLS LIES!

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO AGREE THAT WILLIE WHITE CAN BE TRUSTED AS ELLEN WHITE'S RIGHT HAND!

[miz3]

sky, that is powerful evidence!

[skyblue888]

Yes miz3, it is powerful evidence. There is more.

The Interview with Dr. Kellogg

Part 16

B: It has never been my disposition to crush you down or crush the Sanitarium down in anything. And I don't know as I ever thought that our leading brethren had that in view.

K: That very thing is the ultimate purpose of the whole thing. If you had been present in the meeting when this thing started, you would have heard Elder Daniells on his feet say, "I am not satisfied; Dr. Kellogg's imperious will must be broken." That was when we were trying to have peace. That was when he first started this campaign. He started out with that spirit, and I arose and I said very quietly, "That will be when I am dead." They have been carrying on their campaign ever since. You can find plenty of people who were present at that meeting and heard that speech. That was at the very start of this whole thing.

That is what has kept it going -- that determination to smash something, to smash somebody. And if it had not been for that thing, we would have settled all these troubles a long time ago. But the thing has gone so far I haven't any idea it ever will be settled.

We have simply got to stand by our guns and go on and do our duty the best we can, working for our fellow men, trying to do right, encouraging Christian activity in every way we have opportunity, clinging to all the truth we know, and studying our Bibles. I have been studying my Bible a good deal more in the last two or three years than ever before in that length of time, and the Bible is very dear to me. I never close my eyes without reading a chapter in the Bible at night, and we study the Bible in our home here a good deal more than we ever did before. We are trying to promote Bible study at the Sanitarium; we are not introducing heresy there, but simply studying the Scripture lessons to get help for Christian living, for holding up the moral standard that must be held up. I do not see anything else but to go ahead on that platform and the Seventh-day Adventist denomination I have been working for all my life.

I went into the office when I was a small boy -- when I was twelve years old. Brother Amadon was there, and we were good friends, and he always helped me, was kind to me, and I learned to love him very much, because we were always good friends and considerate. I have been working for the upbuilding of the interests of this denomination, and I was willing to keep on working the balance of my life if they would let me. But they proposed to separate from our work and they did it -- not because they wanted to get rid of the work, but simply to bring us into hard places where we could not go.

Away back in November 1902, five years ago, Elder Daniells demanded of me that the Sanitarium should be surrendered to the General Conference. I said, "I don't see any way that can be done. It is a private corporation, and I don't see any reason why it should be changed. It will go right on as it is, always has been going. It is working for the interests of the denomination, and it will keep right on as it always has done, and I don't see any need of change." And he became very angry. It was at a private conference of our Board and the General Conference Committee. He became very angry, and he said, "I am done with this thing. I will have no more of this. This is the end." And he arose and left the room. Spicer said, "You will find you cannot carry on the Sanitarium without the General Conference Committee." I said, "Whatever the Lord wants us to do we will do." He said, "You will find you cannot get the young people." I said, "If the Lord has got a young man somewhere He wants to come to the Sanitarium, He will see that he gets there." So we have been going on. That was the end of our work.

Afterwards we tried to make reconciliation with them, told them we would do anything. But they immediately began undermining work, began undermining work. They were not square, and I sent word to Prof. Prescott -- this was after the reconciliation at the Tabernacle -- I sent word to Prof. Prescott and to Eld. Daniells, and I said to Prof. Prescott, "Now then, before you leave this town, we ought to sit down together and try to find a basis for harmony. We ought to sit down like men with our official coats off, like brethren together, to try to find some foundation for harmony." He never replied to my note even. I asked him at Washington why he did not reply to my note. Oh, he did, sometime later, after he left town. He said, "If at any time you wish to consult me in my official capacity, I shall be glad to meet you." I asked him why he did not treat me as I asked him to do, and he said, "I tried to get Elder Daniells to do it several times, but he would not."

While we have sought earnestly for harmony for a long time, and are willing to surrender anything and to do anything, these men have kept before the people the idea that we were in rebellion. We were not. They are in rebellion against us. I haven't the slightest expectation of any reconciliation. You cannot work with men who won't work with you. We have nothing to do but to go on and fulfill our mission. The Lord has given us our work to do, and we are going to go right on about the business the best we can and co-operate with everybody we can co-operate with. We do not propose to fight these brethren or Sister White or anybody else. I won't allow myself or the Sanitarium to be engaged in any such thing. We are not going to have any schism; we are not going to do anything of the kind. I will have nothing at all to do with any such thing and all our folks know it.

B: You haven't thought of re-organizing, then?

K: We would not think of such a thing. For pity's sake, haven't we had enough organization of this kind? When you have got an organization that can turn itself into a threshing machine or a destructive engine, for pity's sake why do you want to get into anything more of that kind?

[skyblue888]

Now miz, read this:

The Interview with Dr. Kellogg PART 10

Dr. Kellogg: They said we should not invite boys and girls, inexperienced young people, to come to the Sanitarium. We do not do it. I said "We want experienced people of established character and nobody else. That is the kind we want."

Show me wherein we are going contrary to any instructions we have received. We were instructed to take hold and make the Sanitarium a success, and we are doing it. And the Lord is helping us, and the thing is succeeding beyond our most brilliant expectations. It was intimated to us that we ought not to let down our principles or to make any compromise in order to get patronage, and we haven't. We are trying to hold our principles up a little higher than we used to.

I told you what you can do -- you can verify my statements. If you will write to Elder Daniells, to Prof. Prescott, to Elder Butler, to W. C. White and ask them when they came to me or to W. K. and held out to us the hand of fellowship and what thing they did in that direction -- write to them and ask them. Write to Sister White and ask her what those brethren ever did in the way of carrying out the instruction she gave them. I have told you that they never took one step toward following out the instruction.

Now, then, if I am wrong about it, you say that is contrary to what Sister White has said. But now you have heard my statement. I will give you a copy of it if you want it, and you can send that to Sister White and ask her wherein I have misstated anything. Or to Elder Butler, Daniells, or Prescott.

A: What Sister White sent here one time -- I wanted you to see and read it yourself before it was read in the Tabernacle. I thought certainly that must melt down everything. Sister White said there on the occasion of that meeting that it seemed as though there would be a rending asunder of soul and spirit, and she said the Lord Jesus Christ came down himself and would have taken you right by the hand, and your brother Will, and would have lifted you right out into the light and liberty, but it wasn't done. Now your statement throws --

K: I will go further and tell you something more. I am telling you the truth before the Lord. There were a lot of brethren there that knew it all. I am aware of what you say -- that the two stories are not parallel. I cannot account for that. Only that there were some things the Lord did not let Sister White know about.

I will tell you something more I don't believe she knows anything about at all. The last morning I was there, after I had been there several days, I sat in the house the next door to the house where W. C. White was staying. And I saw him out on the back porch or sitting on a log somewhere with his head in his hands. And I said, "Will looks as though he is feeling pretty bad." And he had some reason to, because, you see, when Prof. Prescott preached a sermon on Friday night against me and against the Living Temple, in which he did not read a line out of Living Temple, but he read out of Spiritualist books, heathen books, and pantheistic books, and theosophical books -- read all those things, horrible things, making those people believe that he was reading out of my book all the time. It was the most horrible thing; I could not stand it, and I came pretty nearly shouting out at the time.

Somebody asked him what book he was reading from, and he would not tell them. Then he went on and told this awful tale, these awful heathen doctrines, and said, "This is the doctrine that is being taught among us by this book that has been circulated." But in College View he stated before a public audience that we had circulated 50,000 copies of that book; and it was a falsehood. And he knew it was a falsehood when he told it -- of the Living Temple.

Elder Evans came to my house when he got back and said, "Prof. Prescott, W. C. White and Elder Daniells have bound themselves together in a conspiracy to ruin you and I have letters which I think will prove it." Elder Evans came here into this room and voluntarily said that to me after the Omaha meeting or the Lincoln council they had held just the fall after the Berrien Springs meeting. Now that was true, Brother Amadon.

You know Elder Haskell very well, don't you?

A: I rather think I do.

[miz3]

Looks like corrupt "Brethren" to me!

[miz3]

Again, Willie White is indicted!

So much for corruption can't happen to the "Testimonies"!

[John317]

You can't trust what Dr. Kellogg said. He was deceptive.

You have these statements from the pen of Ellen White in regard to Dr. Kellogg:

Quote:

It is not safe to trust in Dr. Kellogg. I dare not do it. I have not written to him much, recently, but I may have to send something soon. I have not the least confidence in his present attitude toward many things. I learn that notwithstanding all I have written regarding "The Living Temple" a book that was written under the inspiration of the arch-deceiver; notwithstanding with many plain messages that I have delivered in the "Review and Herald" and in letters to our brethren in responsibility, Dr. Kellogg now admits only a few of the mistakes he has made, and still supposes that in former years I taught the same errors. This reveals a blindness beyond conception. All that I can now do is to watch developments closely. I can not see that it would do the least particle of good to say more than I have said. {BCL 103.1}

From the first, I have met this matter firmly, without the slightest hesitancy. The sentiments advocated in "Living Temple" make this book a dangerous production; for in the book is taught an insinuating, deceptive science of Satanic origin. The articles from my pen that have been published in the "Review" have, I understand, hurt terribly the feelings of some; but I intend to protest decidedly against the many deceptions that are coming in to lead souls astray. {BCL 103.2}

Some of the Doctor's associates look upon these articles as an abuse of him; nevertheless, I am as clear as the day in the conviction that the sentiments expressed in "Living Temple" should not go out to the people. {BCL 103.3}

An effort has just been made to sell over three thousand copies of the original edition still on hand. Only a few revisions were made, by cutting out leaves and inserting others. If we should keep silent a little while, things might develop further. I have done my duty. Months ago I entrusted Elder A. T. Jones with several communications to read to the physicians and helpers at the Battle Creek Sanitarium; but I fear he is leavened with the spirit that controls the Doctor. {BCL 103.4}

The Doctor thinks that we desire to "Wipe him off the slate." on the other hand, Elder Daniells and others whose eyes are open, suppose that in some way I am favoring Dr. Kellogg, or have changed my attitude toward him. But I am constantly on guard. The Doctor does things that we know nothing about now, but which may compel me to bear still more decided testimonies against his persistent efforts to weave into his teachings this fascinating,

-104-

spiritualistic science of Satanic origin. I must not let any one suppose that these delusive, misleading sentiments are for a moment entertained by me. {BCL 103.5}

During the labors of my youth, in Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, and in Canada Maine, I met these same spiritualistic sentiments decidedly. The power of God would rest upon me during the meeting held; and while I was bearing my testimony, some in the congregation would fall helpless to the floor,--unable to rise for a time, --thus silently testifying to the power of God. {BCL 104.1}

As soon as I read "The Living Temple", I discerned the dangerous tendency of its teachings. I wrote out some very straight testimonies for the brethren assembled at the fall council held in Washington in 1903. Copies have been sent to some of the leading brethren. As these messages were read all opposition seemed to be cut down. Dr. Kellogg, Dr. Paulson, and other physicians were with the ministers at this Council, and they all acknowledged that the testimonies were clear and convincing. They wrote us that at times the Holy Spirit would rest with great power upon the entire assembly. {BCL 104.2}

The burden I have carried has been a heavy one. For nearly two months I rarely slept any after twelve o'clock; for two months afterward I was unable to sleep later than one o'clock. I would arise, and write out most important messages. {BCL 104.3}

During the Washington Council-meeting, Dr. Kellogg surrendered, and yet his spiritual discernment still seems beclouded. I speak plainly now; I have not spoken before, because of my hope that he would go to the root of these difficulties. But he has not done thorough work, and he gives evidence of great spiritual blindness; therefore I feel free to write as I have written, in order that my brethren may understand that Sister White is still under the supervision of God, and will not be led astray by any deceptive influences, --not even by Dr. Kellogg. I have suffered intensely. The Doctor feels that we are pressing him to the wall; but I can not do otherwise than that which I have done. I am now awaiting developments. {BCL 104.4}

At the Oakland General Conference I could not explain fully why I was to have no conversation with Dr. Kellogg. It was because Satanic agencies were communicating with him, and much that I might have said would have been mis-stated and misinterpreted. This is also the reason why, for a time, I could not send letters direct to him. {BCL 104.5}

Dr. Kellogg is still in the mists of error,--befogged. He says that he can not see as we do regarding the dangerous tendencies of his theories concerning God. He seems to be very much grieved because I have lost confidence in him. I have much, very much, that I could produce on these matters; and I may have to publish much

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of it. But if I could, in some way, lead the Doctor to go to the bottom,--which he must do before he can rise to the top,-I should praise the Lord with heart, and soul, and voice. At present he is merely skimming the surface, and my soul is still heavily burdened.

-106- {BCL 104.6}

In the long history presented before me, I can see the dangerous path that you have been traveling. You have boasted of your study of science. But from the light that God has given me, I know that you might better, far better, have become a fool in the eyes of the world, than to accept such science as you cherish, and use it as you have done,--to blind the mind and the judgment of those who were connected with you. Your scientific knowledge has been used by you to help you in acting a part similar to the part that Satan acted in the heavenly courts. Step by step you have been wandering away from God, working out plans instigated by the arch deceiver.--Letter 319, 1905, pp. 2, 3. (To J. H. Kellogg, June 2, 1905.) {7MR 293.1}

[John317]

I wish you guys would quit posting this trash from Kellogg's book and follow the inspired Testimony of Ellen White in regards to it.

On this thread, your true colors have been revealed.

That is true. It goes completely contrary to everything Ellen White said about Dr. Kellogg.

If it keeps up, I will shut down the thread. If people want to read Kellogg and believe in him, that is their business, but they won't be able to use the threads of ClubAdventist to broadcast Dr. Kellogg's propaganda & false teachings. It would be the same as letting people use ClubAdventist to spread the idea that Paul and Ellen White were agents of the Devil.

[skyblue888]

The Interview with Dr. Kellogg

PART 11

K: At that same meeting, a few days before Elder Evans came here, two years ago last September -- a few days before that -- Elder Haskell had been out there at that meeting, and one morning I got a very urgent telephone call from Lincoln. I went to the telephone and found Elder Haskell wanted to talk to me. This was just after Sister White's first visit here when she came to the Sanitarium, stayed over night, and spoke in the Tabernacle. She went out there. After that meeting was over, Elder Haskell telephoned to me and said, "I want to see you." So I arranged to meet him in St. Louis, and he came down to St. Louis to meet me.

The first thing he said to me was, "Doctor, these men, Daniells and Prescott, have come to the end of their rope. Sister White has been out to Battle Creek, and she has seen that they have not told her the truth about things." He said, "Sister White told me and told the people there, 'Why, Dr. Kellogg is just the same as he always was. Dr. Kellogg is not fighting me. Dr. Kellogg treated me just as he always did. And there at the Sanitarium they treated me just as they always did.'" They told her we were fighting her, condemning her, trying to oppose her -- told her I had a book written to expose the Testimonies, to show up the weak side of things, and she believed it was true. But she came here and found there wasn't a word of it true.

Sister White must have told you; she told several others here, at any rate. She spoke in the Sanitarium gymnasium and I spoke following. And she said she would not ask me to say anything more than I did say. She told them out there they must stop this work.

They went to her and told her, "Sister White, it cannot be stopped. It will be ruin; it will be ruin." So they insisted on going on. But Elder Haskell said to me, "They have come to the end of their rope, and now they are coming up to Battle Creek to try to get some new point against you. I want to see you and put you on your guard." That is the solemn truth Brother Amadon.

So Sister White came back and I came. They came before I did and they got hold of something that changed her mind again -- got her to believe I was a forger. They got hold of something and took it to her.

Do you know Martha Byington?

A: I think I do.

K: She was with her. And Mrs. L. M. Hall, do you know her? They were with Sister White at that time, and they knew just what was done. These men came to her with my name signed to a document; my signature was there, and I had denied in writing that I had ever signed that document. And I never did sign it. And yet my own signature was there. They told her that I denied having signed that, that I had forged it. It was a $1000 note that I had "forged," and they got things mixed up so that she thought I had forged $50,000, and they found out at last that the bonds were fraudulent -- they found out all about it. And although she came here on purpose to see me, sent word to me to St. Louis to meet her, when I got here she would not talk to me at all, would not speak to me, only to say "How do you do?" She told several people it had been discovered at last I was a forger and had defrauded, and the bonds were fraudulent. And she stuck to it and believes it until this day.

The truth of the matter was this. I had signed a note in blank, "J. H. Kellogg, President," to be used for the International Medical Missionary and Benevolent Association, to be used for them. But in my absence Dr. Thomason, who was secretary, by mistake had filled out above my name, "Mexican Medical and Benevolent Association, instead of "International Medical Missionary and Benevolent Association," in renewing a note that had come back. I was authorized to sign notes for the Mexican Association. But I was only an agent -- I was not president. So the forgery was in that termination, "President," you see.

Now I paid that note. The money was sent down there to Mexico. I never had misappropriated the money. That was done and I did not know it. I could not explain it because I did not know anything about it. I signed it to be used for the International Association, but the note was sent out during my absence for the Mexican Medical and Benevolent Association. So when they wrote me about it, I told them I never signed such a note because I was agent, you know, and this was signed as president, and I told them I was not president. I had never signed it.

You see, I signed the first note all right, but in my absence the note came back to be renewed, and Dr. Thomason wrote that on. Miss Steinel who kept the books was away from home. When she got back, Judge Arthur wrote out a full explanation and sent it down to Elder Daniells and those men, but they never corrected it. So Sister White still labors under the impression.

At the last General Conference, Sister White made the statement that I was a forger, and Daniells got a shorthand report of that. And when I was in Europe last spring, I found he had been showing it all around over Europe to prove that I was a forger, and that the Lord had said it.

You see, I cannot have any particular sympathy with that sort of doings, so I am perfectly frank to tell you that if you endorse that action on the part of the General Conference Committee, and if this church endorses the campaign of the General Conference on behalf of fraud, deceit and misrepresentation, when they get ready to drop my name from the book I shall accept it as a release that the Lord has given me from any further responsibility in that thing. But I shall never ask for my name to be dropped from your church book because I believe the truth that I always have believed, and I am standing for the same things that I always have stood for, and I don't believe in the policies that are being carried on at all.

It is a wicked and unchristian and unbiblical method of procedure. I have never been asked to appear before the church to answer to any charges at all. Yet I am condemned everywhere. Certainly I ought to be turned out of the church if I have committed robberies, if I am doing those things. But it should be pointed out wherein I have done these things, and I should be given opportunity to make restitution. I am ready to make restitution if the things are pointed out to me. I am ready to make restitution.

to be continued

[miz3]

Of course not!

Kellogg is not allowed to defend himself, he is supposed to sit quietly by and let the "Brethren" railroad him while they satisfy their greed and power hunger!

Kellogg is supposed to do this all the while Willie White the keeper of Ellen White's gate is lying and manipulating in cahoots with the "Brethren"!

There is no evidence that Kellogg did anything wrong or that he was a "pantheist" or "tended toward pantheism" so those that defend the greedy power hungry "Brethren" pull what they "believe" to be "sacred words" to tell us that it is not right for us even to look into this matter let alone present evidence.

Some of these same ones have actually gone against the "sacred words" and read the Living Temple.

Talk about INQUISITIONS, this is the definition of the word!

[Dr. Rich]

Is that the: Hear no evil, see no evil theory John317? Perhaps God should have talked to you prior to allowing Satan to come into the Garden of Eden!

And you can also blame Jesus for going away and allowing Satan to sow the seed of weeds in the same New Testiment where His seeds were sown, I suppose, right?

[John317]

From the pen of Ellen G. White:

Quote:

I have seen how Dr. Kellogg has united with the arch deceiver in using hypnotic influence upon souls to deceive them. Those who sustain him in his course are guilty with him of resisting the Spirit of God. Such blindness of understanding seems strange in one who has known the truth for this time. {PC 331.4}

A. T. Jones has a theory of the truth, as expressed in his books. He does not repudiate these, but he virtually goes back upon their teachings, by the course of action he is following. {PC 331.5}

Dr. Kellogg places himself before the world in the position of one who is greatly abused. He writes many letters, as he has to you, making such a representation as would call forth sympathy. But he is still at work with all subtlety. I have felt compelled to warn our people: for they do not understand his cunning.

332

{PC 331.6}

I have seen that the leaders in the medical work in Battle Creek will try to secure possession of the Tabernacle. Their scheming is so subtle, that I greatly fear that this may be accomplished. {PC 332.1}

If Dr. Kellogg can destroy the faith of any of our people in the testimonies, he will do it. He sometimes takes the nurses and others, sometimes alone in the night season, and talks with them for hours framing a tissue of falsehood, to make them believe himself a much abused man. Some of these poor souls have heard the truth, and they wish to get out of Battle Creek. They realize that their safety consists in leaving the place where they are so deceived. The doctor will take advantage in every way to make an impression upon human minds in destroying all confidence in the testimonies. If we are not constantly on guard, he will destroy by his sophistries, if possible, the very elect. And those associates who have upheld him will have to answer before God for their individual course of action. {PC 332.2}

The messages of encouragement given to Dr. Kellogg have been many. They have been tender and true, but there have always been conditions involved. We might say much more than we do, but we do not wish to expose before the world the things we might say. But we should so far as possible overcome the impression that we sustain and honor one who follows such a course as has the doctor and his associates. Our only object in publishing any of those things has been to save some of our own people from being destroyed.

-

{PC 332.3}

In a letter to Elder G. I. Butler dated October 30, 1906, she says "Recently I have written letters to different ones who are in danger of being misled by the deceptive influence that prevails at B. C. The disaffected ones will make every effort possible to secure the Tabernacle, and to gain other advantages by which to disseminate their wrong theories and carry forward their apostasies. But the Lord lives and reigns. I am writing out the cautions He gives me. I will not give up. I must relieve my soul of its burden. It may be that I shall have to visit Battle Creek. {PC 332.4}

Many things have been presented to me. I have been shown that although J.H. Kellogg has written that he has surrendered, he has not surrendered. He will vindicate himself, and will not, unless thoroughly converted, be a safe man to stand in positions of influence. We must guard the flock of God from just such things as have for years been proceeding from his sophistries. It is not safe for him to bear the responsibilities that he has borne. The burden has laid heavily upon me as I have been obliged to meet his ways, his suggestions, and his plans, which the Lord has not inspired, and which, if followed, would cause many to turn aside from the truth to fables dressed in angels' robes. God forbid that this should continue. {21MR 416.4}

Dr. Kellogg's course has blinded and confused his associate physicians and has retarded the work of God. How impossible it is to remove the impressions that have been made upon the minds of others, impressions which certainly do not tend to increase faith in the light that the Lord has been giving for the past half century. {21MR 417.1}

Dr. Kellogg's ideas and plans have not been of heavenly origin. For the past twenty years the church has been distracted in regard to the proper relation of the medical work to the gospel ministry, because Dr. Kellogg has been holding up the gospel minister as inferior to the medical missionary work. {21MR 417.2}

The gospel message given to warn the world of what is coming as foretold by the prophecies relating to these last days, has not had the impression upon Dr. Kellogg's mind that it should have had. His defective movements have been pointed out over and over again, and yet he keeps right on as confidently as if he were supreme in wisdom. He has done as objectionable work, undermining the confidence of many in God's warnings. To those who receive his version of things and his representations as the wisdom of God, the sure result will come. The end will be infidelity, an acceptance of sophistries that undermine the plain facts of the Bible. Oh, how I have longed to see his mind moved by the Holy Spirit! {21MR 417.3}

His skill as a physician, the knowledge that God has given him, has so exalted him, that he has felt that he was supreme. He has said many things, and then contradicted and denied them. His own mind is so strained that he is utterly confused as to what is genuine truth and what is fable. For him to be accepted as an educator to prepare students for the doing of the sacred work that is termed medical missionary work, would be a great mistake. He would fail to leave upon minds the reformative missionary impress. He has not done the work properly for many years, although followed by the testimonies of the Spirit of God. {21MR 417.4}

[Lysimachus]

Both Sky and Miz3 continue to ignore this quote from Ellen White:

Quote:

The track of truth lies close beside the track of error, and both tracks may seem to be one to minds which are not worked by the Holy Spirit, and which, therefore, are not quick to discern the difference between truth and error. {1SM 202.2}

It's like Sky doesn't get it. He quotes from the Living Temple, and then shows how it is in "harmony" with the writings of Sister White. Yet Sister White unequivocally states that the two tracks which are side by side may "seem to be one in the minds which are not worked by the Holy Spirit".

This is DANGEROUS Sky! Dangerous miz3!

You guys are ignoring the plain counsels in these writings. Heed the statements John137 is giving you. Quit ignoring the Statements he has provided. If you do, you will set yourself onto the road of destruction.

[miz3]

In terms of "OBEDIENCE" are we to "obey" the writings of Ellen White the same as we called to obey the Scriptures (Bible)?

[skyblue888]

It has already been shown, time and time again, where the track of error departs from the track of truth but many are choosing to turn a deaf ear.

sky

[miz3]

The wrong track is with the "Brethren".

That was a big hint!

[John317]

Ellen White to J.H. Kellogg:

Quote:

I write to you as a mother would to her son. I would go to see you if I could feel it my duty to leave the work here; but I dare not do this. You have built up hopes and nurtured plans without due consideration of how the tower is to be finished and supported. As one who knows, as one who has been permitted to have an insight into the future and the result of the work you have taken upon you, I call upon you to stop and consider. God knows your frame. He knows that you are but dust, even the small dust of the balance. You will certainly need the counsel, not of those who have permitted you to go on in the work that you deemed so important, but the counsel of men who at present time are more level-headed than even J.H. Kellogg. {BCL 29.1}

I wish to state, Dr. Kellogg, that if you will receive the messages of warning given you, it will save you from great trial and mortification, and will be to the saving of your soul. Cast not behind you as of no consequence the warnings which as yet you do not understand. I tell you plainly that you are carrying forward that which you call missionary work according to misconceived judgement and opinions. The Sanitarium will suffer because you have given yourself up to do a work for which God will call you into account. I have been instructed that you have been doing a work which the Lord never appointed you to do. Means have been drawn from the Sanitarium to erect buildings for the care of people who can never be relied on to fill places in the ministry or on councils. They have not a knowledge of the work of character-building, and they can not be relied on as men of forethought. They have ruined their mental powers and destroyed their spiritual discernment by the indulgence of appetite and passion, and this makes them weak. They are fickle and changeable. {BCL 29.2}