Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2011 Moderators Posted July 15, 2011 ....there is zero evidence that JH Kellogg was a "pantheist" or "tended toward pantheism". Dr. Kellogg believed and taught that God Himself is actually and truly present in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, in food, the water, in all men. LT 28, 53. Ellen White believed and taught that God does NOT dwell personally in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, the water, in food, in all men. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Club, the present order of things (men's constitutions with their hierarchy, by-laws, delegations, rules & regulations, resolutions, elections by voting, human methods and plans) will remain until the very end. Today's leaders will never accept to reorganize after the order of things instituted by God in 1901, which order was reversed in 1903 in General Conference. The new president publicly stated that the present order of things was in harmony with the 1901 constitution! And the majority of the people have no idea of what he is saying because they have not and cannot study these issues for themselves because the bulletins of the 1901 and 1903 General Conferences have not been made available to them. Today only a few have access to these bulletins and only with the help of the Holy Spirit can they discern what really happened during these pivotal conferences. Today, we must accept the light of precious truth on an individual basis and be organized, by being indivivually joined to the Head which is Christ Jesus. This is what took place in Christ's day. Jesus did not expect the men who composed the Sanhedrin to let go of their traditions and follow Him and Him only. He knew that only a few would such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. We have been warned that when the Lord finishes the work it will be in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. The invitation is to make it our lifebusiness to look to Jesus, who is the Head of every man, to accept His merits, the merits of His infinite sacrifice, by claiming them, as it is our privilege to do so. (T.M.93) As we daily come to God just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, hanging our helpless souls upon His all-sufficient merits, we become one with Him and His commandments become promises to us, most positive promises of their own fulfillment. Unless we do this on a daily basis we cannot grow up into Christ and we will not recognize the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain. It may be falling all around us, but we shall not discern it or receive it. (T.M.507) God will finish the work through men and women of His own choosing. The sad part is that "When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming up to the help of the Lord, they (ministers and leading men) will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas." (T.M.300) But God will vindicate His people and the truth will finally triumph. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Is not the Holy Spirit "God Himself" working in and through all? "The Lord's throne is in Heaven; yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present," "working in and through all," "moving in all things according to His will." sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Sky says, "Today, we must accept the light of precious truth on an individual basis and be organized, being indivivually joined to the Head which is Christ Jesus." Well said Sky. How we are to be organized, apart or within the church is more problematic. I've posted a few ideas on the subject. Do you have any counsel on it?
Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2011 Moderators Posted July 15, 2011 Is not the Holy Spirit "God Himself" working in and through all? "The Lord's throne is in Heaven; yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present," "working in and through all," "moving in all things according to His will." Kellogg taught that where God's power is manifested, God himself is actually and truly present. He taught that God actually dwells in the things of nature-- in the flower, trees, water, food, etc. On the other hand, Ellen White taught that while nature and life is the manifestation of God Himself, God does NOT dwell personally in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, the food, etc. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 In 1903 Mrs. White wrote, "I am instructed to say that those who would tear down the foundation that God has laid, are not to be accepted as the teachers and leaders of His people." Special Testimonies, Series B, #7, p.36-41; Oct.1903. This happened at the 1903 General Conference. The foundation that God had laid at the 1901 General Conference was torn down. The 1903 report of the Minority Committee: "The minority report expresses in a word the feelings which actuated the minority in making the report, because we believe that the constitution proposed by the majority of the committee appears to us to be so subversive of the principles of organization given to us at the General Conference of 1897 and 1901. Those principles were given to us by the Spirit of God. In my judgment, and in the judgment of the minority of the committee, this constitution (1903) is absolutely subversive of those principles. Further: The proposed new constitution reverses the reformatory steps that were taken, and which were adopted as the principles or reorganization, at the General Conference of 1897 and 1901, and which were incorporated in the constitution of 1901." P.T. Magan 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.150 The Lord, through Mrs. White, sent this warning: "If this is allowed to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481. It has been allowed to continue to this day. Therefore, John, the statement you have quoted dated 1913 cannot be from Mrs. White. Otherwise none of the above would make any sense at all. This is what I mean by the leaders resorting to fraud and guile in order to maintain their high-handed power that they had developed over the years. (T.M.361,366) Here is a true statement from her pen, dated 1913: "Principles have been perverted. Men have been departing from the right principles, for the promulgation of which these institutions were established. They have failed of doing the very work God ordained should be done to prepare a people." Southern Union Worker, Nashville, Tenn. Oct.16, 1913. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 When I find EGW counsel that appears to be inconsistent, I pause, look for the balance and understanding. I don't assume it's incorrect, I assume I don't yet understand it! The 1913 quotes from EGW are in harmony with her general counsel over the years. Of course she had some profound things to say regarding 1888 and later. But I believe the 1913 quotes are consistent with her counsel through the years. But the BIG issue with these quotes is I just don't believe she was manipulated in writing them out or that they were forged. I trust God, that like the biblical record, Ellen Whites record remains consistent and unimpeachable. At any rate, WHAT if anything should an individual member do about this? Just what action are you calling for Sky? A sincere and humble question.
skyblue888 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Club, I have already answered that sincere and humble question in the following post: Today, we must accept the light of precious truth on an individual basis and be organized, by being indivivually joined to the Head which is Christ Jesus. This is what took place in Christ's day. Jesus did not expect the men who composed the Sanhedrin to let go of their traditions and follow Him and Him only. He knew that only a few would such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. We have been warned that when the Lord finishes the work it will be in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. The invitation is to make it our lifebusiness to look to Jesus, who is the Head of every man, to accept His merits, the merits of His infinite sacrifice, by claiming them, as it is our privilege to do so. (T.M.93) As we daily come to God just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, hanging our helpless souls upon His all-sufficient merits, we become one with Him and His commandments become promises to us, most positive promises of their own fulfillment. Unless we do this on a daily basis we cannot grow up into Christ and we will not recognize the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain. It may be falling all around us, but we shall not discern it or receive it. (T.M.507) God will finish the work through men and women of His own choosing. The sad part is that "When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming up to the help of the Lord, they (ministers and leading men) will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas." (T.M.300) But God will vindicate His people and the truth will finally triumph "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Is not the Holy Spirit "God Himself" working in and through all? "The Lord's throne is in Heaven; yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present," "working in and through all," "moving in all things according to His will." Kellogg taught that where God's power is manifested, God himself is actually and truly present. He taught that God actually dwells in the things of nature-- in the flower, trees, water, food, etc. On the other hand, Ellen White taught that while nature and life is the manifestation of God Himself, God does NOT dwell personally in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, the food, etc. God the Being does not dwell in the things of nature but God the Spirit does work in and through all, moving in all things according to His will. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 The critical issue is causing confusion with the people of this forum in not understanding whether you are, or aren't, a Seventh-day Adventist. God is not the author of confusion. Be proud of your position, I would that you were cold or hot. What ARE you going to do about this garbage problem miz3? What steps have you taken to address the issue? Can you present to this forum your recommendations? Not to me, the forum. As an out spoken representative of denouncing the SDA church, you owe it to the people to follow through on this. Or, stop fighting against the prophet and the church. But lets be clear on it. I have been clear! You apparently have chosen to aid and abet those who commit sin against the Church and against God by their greed and quest for power! You are the one not only allowing garbage to pile up but you are actually aiding and abetting the garbage makers.
skyblue888 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 You have no evidence of this except your conjecture and assumptions. The truth is-- as Ellen White wrote-- that although people often didn't treat Dr. Kellogg very well' date=' yet it was Dr. Kellogg who was dishonest and who was conniving. He was very deceptive. The problem is that you have rejected what Ellen White said and you've accepted the testimony of Dr. Kellogg. Please read the Introduction to vol 8 of the Testimonies, called "The Times of Volume Eight." [/quote'] Speaking of the leading brethren the Lord had this to say: "Your turning things upside down is know of the Lord. Go a little longer as you have gone, in rejection of the light from heaven, and you are lost." T.M.97. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
miz3 Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 For another, Jesus didn't stop going to the synagogue because of wrongs committed by the "church" of His day. Nor does God call SDAs to stop supporting the SDA church because of wrongs that are done or have been done by some SDAs. We already know that the church is imperfect. It has always been imperfect. People are always imperfect. I am imperfect and you are imperfect. That is what the letter to the Laodicean church is all about. Have you joined the people who are calling for SDAs to leave the SDA church? If so, that is directly contrary to God's will as revealed through His last-day prophet. The real problem with the SDA church is that we don't pay attention to what God has revealed. It isn't that we pay too much attention. Many of us don't pay any attention at all. 1. I never ever said or advocated in way shape or form that people stop going to the SDA Church, stop tithe and offering giving, and/or to stop participating in the SDA Church. So your accusation which says that I said that is WRONG! 2. Again, I never ever said or advocated, or suggested in any way shape or form that people leave the SDA Church. 3. The real problem with the SDA Church is to get people to open their eyes and see what is actually happening to the SDA Church and what has been happening all along. To get people to aware of who they elect and to make such men and women accountable to the pew sitters! This will not happen of course until the pew sitters stop allowing the "Brethren" to define for them what the Bible does and does not say! The pew sitters need to read the Bible unaided by anything other than the Holy Spirit as it tells us to do in 1Corinthians chapter two!
skyblue888 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 I agree. Nobody here is calling for people to separate from the church. We are trying to find out what happened because the work should have been finished long ago. Nothing wrong with studying our history. And Club, there is nothing inconsistent in the following: In 1903 Mrs. White wrote, "I am instructed to say that those who would tear down the foundation that God has laid, are not to be accepted as the teachers and leaders of His people." Special Testimonies, Series B, #7, p.36-41; Oct.1903. This happened at the 1903 General Conference. The foundation that God had laid at the 1901 General Conference was torn down. The 1903 report of the Minority Committee: "The minority report expresses in a word the feelings which actuated the minority in making the report, because we believe that the constitution proposed by the majority of the committee appears to us to be so subversive of the principles of organization given to us at the General Conference of 1897 and 1901. Those principles were given to us by the Spirit of God. In my judgment, and in the judgment of the minority of the committee, this constitution (1903) is absolutely subversive of those principles. Further: The proposed new constitution reverses the reformatory steps that were taken, and which were adopted as the principles of reorganization, at the General Conference of 1897 and 1901, and which were incorporated in the constitution of 1901." P.T. Magan 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.150 The Lord, through Mrs. White, sent this warning: "If this is allowed to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481. It has been allowed to continue to this day. Therefore, John, the statement you have quoted dated 1913 cannot be from Mrs. White. Otherwise none of the above would make any sense at all. This is what I mean by the leaders resorting to fraud and guile in order to maintain their high-handed power that they had developed over the years. (T.M.361,366) Here is a true statement from her pen, dated 1913: "Principles have been perverted. Men have been departing from the right principles, for the promulgation of which these institutions were established. They have failed of doing the very work God ordained should be done to prepare a people." Southern Union Worker, Nashville, Tenn. Oct.16, 1913. sky Any statement declaring that the present constitution or order of things will triumph has to be a false prophecy, (as allegedly stated by Mrs. White in 1913) and therefore it cannot be from the pen of Mrs. White or from the Lord because the Lord has told us that the present constitution will be swept away by storm and tempest. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Wow, thats a pretty bold claim Sky, that the counsel written in 1913 is false testimony. Dr. Rich thinks Paul's testimony is also false. I do not accept either argument.
miz3 Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 Dr. Kellogg believed and taught that God Himself is actually and truly present in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, in food, the water, in all men. LT 28, 53. Ellen White believed and taught that God does NOT dwell personally in the things of nature-- in the flower, the tree, the water, in food, in all men. 1. What Dr. JH Kellogg taught is NOT PANTHEISM, nor is it even tending toward pantheism! He was correct in this view because you cannot separate God from His Life. The tree, the flower etc. could not exist unless the Life of God was in these things. Does that then mean that we worship these things because God is in them? NO! NO! NO! We worship God alone, not God in something. The Bible is the One which states that we are to Worship God directly not God in something. The Second Commandment in Exodus chapter twenty so states. Worshiping the "creation (tree, flower etc.) is worshiping an image! Dr. Kellogg never ever stated nor inferred that we thus should worship the "creation" rather than the Creator! Dr. Kellogg in fact wants us to marvel that such a magnificent God exists. In fact I got the distinct idea that Dr. Kellogg's main point in writing the Living Temple was two fold. a. That God clearly exists and created everything. He wrote this a direct answer to the growing "evolutionary" theories that were becoming abundant and threatening the very foundation of Christianity. b. To help all who read his book to live better more healthy lives. It was a quality of life advice based on the science that Kellogg knew existed. I would again say that Kellogg did a remarkable job in both of his goals to humanity! Yet you belittle this book because of the jealousy and greed of human entities! 2. Sky has shown you differently! At best we can say that Ellen White is a mixed bag in her statements. Such mixed statements on issues means one of two things. a. She was flat out not inspired and thus was a complete fake! b. She was growing in her knowledge of God just as others were also and that God gave her inspired messages to fit certain current issues. However God never did give her comprehensive messages across the entire spectrum of spiritual knowledge. In fact Ellen White shared her own personal knowledge (not direct from God but her own opinions) because she felt her Christian duty to help others and the Church! I choose to believe the "b" answer concerning Ellen White! Those that believe "everything she wrote or spoke" was direct from God have to either ignore her conflicting statements or they have to do mental and linguistic gymnastics to harmonize her statements.
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 Apparentely Sky thinks the Testimonies concerning Kellogg were also forged. I gotta wonder, where does this stop? What else has been "forged"? Where does this path of gross speculation end, Sky, miz3? What pages, paragraphs or books should we throw out next? The pick and choose method of the works of Ellen White are NOT of the Lord, people... there not. You guys seriously need to rethink this position.
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 It is noteworthy that neither Sky or miz3 have offered a single idea on what action should be taken to correct this so called "apostasy" of the SDA church. Your combined counsel certainly carries the message of tear it down, attacks, accusations, speculation (which Ellen White warns against) but no solution! That speaks volumes as to the credibility of the authors.
miz3 Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 Apparentely Sky thinks the Testimonies concerning Kellogg were also forged. I gotta wonder, where does this stop? What else has been "forged"? Where does this path of gross speculation end, Sky, miz3? What pages, paragraphs or books should we throw out next? The pick and choose method of the works of Ellen White are NOT of the Lord, people... there not. You guys seriously need to rethink this position. Herein lies the very damage I speak of. Because of these greedy power hungry men very possibly including Ellen White's own inner circle, the Spirit of Prophecy is now called into question by ClubV12. It is just this very fact that damages the Church! This is why it is always vital that we as God's Children should always be scrupulously honest down to least scintilla! One dishonest mistake and it calls into question the whole thing! You are correct ClubV12, where does it end? What indeed can we have confidence in? If this part is compromised by evil what else is also compromised? This is why I challenge you ClubV12 to become aware of the "warts" within our midst! You pass them off as irrelevant, but you now know of your own word that have shown that such things are not irrelevant! This is why you need to become aware of what your leaders are doing out there in the Pacific Union Conference! How are they using God's funds? How are they treating their fellow servants? Who and what decides how things are to go and who or what is monitoring such to make sure that things are done right? You are clueless about all this! You are not alone and this is why the Brethren think they can get away with anything they want. They do not feel they are accountable. I have seen members of the Union Board who know nothing of what is going on because they take the President's word for everything they know! They then turn around and spout the President's word that everything is as he says it is. The dummies in the pew thinking that God actually ordained these men and women accept without a peep what is said. However the real Truth is far from the words being spoken. If anyone tries to say "boo" they are squashed instantly like a bug!
miz3 Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 It is noteworthy that neither Sky or miz3 have offered a single idea on what action should be taken to correct this so called "apostasy" of the SDA church. Your combined counsel certainly carries the message of tear it down, attacks, accusations, speculation (which Ellen White warns against) but no solution! That speaks volumes as to the credibility of the authors. What you say above is patently false! I have given you solutions. However, you choose to sit on your duff and spout nonsense like above! Get off your seat and find out what is exactly going on! You hide behind your platitudes thinking you and the SDA Church are ok and pristine.
Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2011 Moderators Posted July 15, 2011 ...In fact I got the distinct idea that Dr. Kellogg's main point in writing the Living Temple was two fold. a. That God clearly exists and created everything. He wrote this a direct answer to the growing "evolutionary" theories that were becoming abundant and threatening the very foundation of Christianity. Are you kidding? Kellogg eventually became a believer in evolution. What is in Kellogg's theories that clearly opposes evolution? I agree his theories oppose atheism, but that is not the same as evolution. Kellogg taught that God is actually in the flowers and trees and in the water you drink and shower in. He said that you taste God when you eat and that you smell God in the flowers. This is not the teaching of the Bible or of the Spirit of prophecy. There's a big difference between God making the flowers and being Himself in the flowers. The flowers and all life are the manifestation of God, but they are not God Himself. God does not personally and actually dwell in all men. This was Kellogg's belief at the time he wrote the Living Temple. It was a false idea, and Ellen White fought against it. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 miz3 says, "...the Spirit of Prophecy is now called into question by ClubV12." Thats a direct lie miz3, a complete misrepresentation of what I have consistently stated. Ellen White is an inspired prophetess of the Lord, that YOU reject in great part. WHICH parts, where does THAT end, is a burning question! More to the point, when your done tearing down, miz3, Sky, what real world steps do you recommend need to be taken to address the problem? You both have done an excellent job of pointing out the faults, the problems, the speculation that much of the Testimonies are "forged". Now what?? Read the bible? Let the Holy Spirit work it out? The Ethopian did that, the Lord sent him Phillip so he could have some real world ideas on what to do with what he had learned. What do we do. Sky, miz3? What is the recommendation? I hear you loud and clear that many will die, that I will die, because were all decieved. Is that all there is? You pronounce death and then walk away? You offer nothing to lift up those about to die from being mislead? Read the bible you say? Like the Ethiopian. I'm doing that! Could you offer some help here, or, are you just gonna throw us under the bus and move on?
Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2011 Moderators Posted July 15, 2011 Nobody here is calling for people to separate from the church. We are trying to find out what happened because the work should have been finished long ago. Nothing wrong with studying our history. What is this, then? Originally Posted By: miz3 The mystery is how you can sit through Sabbath School and Church each and every Sabbath knowing the dirty issues going on in the Church both locally and on up to the GC! ...You have already stated that for you, you will ignore the garbage and continue to support the SDA Church as if she were a pristine church. In taking this stand you are aiding abetting those who hurt individuals and also the work of God by their greedy power hungry plans and actions. If that is not a suggestion that SDAs ought to stop sitting through Sabbath School and Church [service] in an SDA Church, and ought to stop supporting the church, what is it? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2011 Moderators Posted July 15, 2011 You apparently have chosen to aid and abet those who commit sin against the Church and against God by their greed and quest for power! You are the one not only allowing garbage to pile up but you are actually aiding and abetting the garbage makers. How is ClubIV doing this? Who exactly is it that you believe is committing sin against the Church and against God by their greed and quest for power? What "garbage" and "garbage makers" are you referring to? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 No matter we think, the following clearly shows what happened. In 1903 Mrs. White wrote, "I am instructed to say that those who would tear down the foundation that God has laid, are not to be accepted as the teachers and leaders of His people." Special Testimonies, Series B, #7, p.36-41; Oct.1903. This happened at the 1903 General Conference. The foundation that God had laid at the 1901 General Conference was torn down. The 1903 report of the Minority Committee: "The minority report expresses in a word the feelings which actuated the minority in making the report, because we believe that the constitution proposed by the majority of the committee appears to us to be so subversive of the principles of organization given to us at the General Conference of 1897 and 1901. Those principles were given to us by the Spirit of God. In my judgment, and in the judgment of the minority of the committee, this constitution (1903) is absolutely subversive of those principles. Further: The proposed new constitution reverses the reformatory steps that were taken, and which were adopted as the principles or reorganization, at the General Conference of 1897 and 1901, and which were incorporated in the constitution of 1901." P.T. Magan 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.150 The Lord, through Mrs. White, sent this warning: "If this is allowed to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481. It has been allowed to continue to this day. Therefore, John, the statement you have quoted dated 1913 cannot be from Mrs. White. Otherwise none of the above would make any sense at all. This is what I mean by the leaders resorting to fraud and guile in order to maintain their high-handed power that they had developed over the years. (T.M.361,366) Here is a true statement from her pen, dated 1913: "Principles have been perverted. Men have been departing from the right principles, for the promulgation of which these institutions were established. They have failed of doing the very work God ordained should be done to prepare a people." Southern Union Worker, Nashville, Tenn. Oct.16, 1913. sky Any statement made after 1903 declaring that the present constitution or order of things will triumph has to be a false prophecy, (as allegedly stated by Mrs. White in 1913) and therefore it cannot be from the pen of Mrs. White or from the Lord because the Lord has told us that the present constitution will be swept away by storm and tempest. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 "I am instructed to say that those who would tear down the foundation that God has laid, are not to be accepted as the teachers and leaders of His people." Special Testimonies, Series B, #7, p.36-41; Oct.1903. It sounds like this is pointing directly at Sky and miz3, it brings me NO joy to say this, but how else could it be interpreted? Again, so here we have this "garbage" problem, and myself and others are now firmly "under the bus" and about to die. Can you help us, or only curse us as we lay there bleeding and beat up? Jesus said we going to die, but He offered a plan. To carry out the plan He told Peter to feed His sheep. I'm hungry... Now as I see it, Sky, your saying everything AFTER 1903 is corrupt (from Ellen White). NOT that I believe that, just sayin'. I don't know what time frame she was speaking of as it concerns Kellogg, by the way.
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